It's a years age difference, it doesn'r really matter.... Jeez!!!
Who kicked this thread back into action??
Lionel Messi
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It's a years age difference, it doesn'r really matter.... Jeez!!!
Who kicked this thread back into action??
Now what is just merely your opinion. Messi is often injured very few months. He is yet to have a run of game in a seasons the way Ronaldo often has. Furthermore this season is concrete proof of fact that Ronaldo scores goals when not even in top gear. He has almost as many as Messi who is on fire.
Did you watch his goal vs Basel in the champions league a few weeks back? Or better yet one some of his goals in the Copa america? When he got in behind defenders, while playing as a half 9? I don't merely think it. I'm convinced of it.
Personally I honestly don't think he has had the opportunity to do it yet. For me he has to do it when Ronaldo to is on fire. & when he has hit a bad patch of form. Not when Ronaldo is off color and not playing any where near his true standards.
Well he doesn't. No matter how much people wish he does. There's this perception Messi is more dangerous than Ronaldo because of how he dominates/terrorises teams with the ball when on fire. Yet Ronaldo when on fire simply buries teams. For they can't live with his array of weapons. Which is also a form of domination. I guess it's all down to preference in the end.
Indeed
Kaka is a forward.
Scholes is a midfielder, so the brazilian is bound get credited with more assists.
Whenever Scholes played in a free role behind the striker, his goal scoring and assist ratio were as good as Kaka if not better.
As for United, we've never ever played the midfield around Scholes. Whenever Fergie tinkered with the formation, it was Scholes who was left to play in the difficult position yet his orchestration from the midfeild was always class. First we played it around Keane and then Veron and then a series of crap signings Kleberson, Djemba, Smith, Miller and a young dashing Fletcher in the form of his life, it can take its toll over any other creative footballer and Scholes wasn't an exception and now our attack is played it around Ronaldo. In contrast Arsenal's midfield is played around Fabregas even since he broke through.
Ronaldo spent most of that season aged 21.
One thing for sure, had Ronaldo gone to Barcelona instead of United he would've been another Quaresma in the making, they wouldn't have had the patience to groom him as much Fergie did in his development. Messi never needed that bandwith to establish himself, football comes easy only to some players and Messi does certainly belong to that rare breed.
I completely agree. My argument is simply based around my belief that when both are on fire Ronaldo is more deadly. Because he can play like he did in 2007 creating a lot and still score loads.
That's such a stupid argument. You've been making it for quite a while as well. Basically you've been making the point that Messi's always on fire, and so it proves that when he's not on fire he won't be able to score like Ronaldo does. Yet, doesn't the fact that he's always on form, right from the start of his Barcelona career, tell you how brilliant he is? Ronaldo started off as an inconsistent winger like most do, but Messi came out and kept up a good level of consistency. That's very impressive for a winger at his age.
I did, and I'm still not convinced it's all that.
Well then we'll wait until the season's end. If ronaldo however doesn't perform like he did alst season because of Berbatov's arrival, then I think it would still be fair enough to make that judgement even if he didn't hit top form because a season is long enough.
Pretty much.
A very good point actually, Messi is certainly one of those types where you could stick them in an environment which isn't the best for younger players and he would still shine and find a way through but like you say with Ronaldo your management showed great patience with him to deal with his personality and get the best out of him. You have changed the way you play to get the best out of him. Look at Beckham before him who was an out and out wide player last season I remember seeing some stat about Ronaldo spending more time in central positions high up the pitch than Rooney did last season. Which shows he was very much given a free role to do what he wants.
If he did it wouldn't have been because of his ability! For one Quaresma was never as good as Ronaldo believe me if he was we would have signed him instead of allowing Barca to buy him under our noses!! Also Quaresma was playing for the same Barcelona team Messi was playing for at the time Barca were in transformation, trying to get out of 3years of under performing. It is also easier to give time to Messi who never come with a price tag or expectation to perform from staff and fans.
No. I'll re phrase that for you, 'The way he plays has made us adapt a different style which benefits him'
Even bringing that up is a bit silly because all great players tend to have a team developed for their strengths, do they not!!
Those are all just excuses. Ronaldo shoots more than any one else because he is likely to score more than any one else, despite not even being a striker! 42 goals in all comps was proof of this. It's not like he is carrying out percentage play. If that can't will you he is the better finisher nothing else will.
I doubt it. Because you are often talking it down like it is nothing special. Like any other player could do it. That's why you place Messi so high above him.
Well it's a correct opinion.
Due to his link up play. Not just his pace.
Ronaldo does as much linking up with his team mates. Than you care to admit.
That is not true at all . Unless Ronaldo is having a mental episode like he does occasionally he always works hard for the team. He matches Rooney and Tevez for commitment to the cause. All the time. Not when he chooses.
Messi and Ronaldo work equally as hard as each other for any team they play for.
Messi does not work harder for his team than Ronaldo. I'm beyond sure of that.
His movement is superior to every single one. That is why he scored 42 goals last year. That is why even without top gear he has 8 goals and 3 assist already this term.
No way. I have little problem with people thinking Messi is better. What I don't get is them painting it as proven fact. Then coming up with this constant painting of Ronaldo as ordinary. With comments like "its a privilege to watch Messi", "He is the only one who will surpass/ reach Zidane and fat Ronaldo or Maradona.", "Ronaldo is only a better in the air and more athletic" (like he as not footballing merit to him), "Ronaldo is a make shift striker", and the worst of all "The guy struggles to spot a pass"/ "is to great team/link up play".
I might not like Ronaldo the person but I'm not about to let him get disrespected in this fashion and say nothing against it. I fear this argument will only be settled once and for all if Ronaldo finally becomes a REAL player. then some of you will finally grasp how special a talent he really is.
For the start Ronaldo never had a big price tag to feel the heat yet when Messi broke through Ronaldinho, Xavi and Eto were in their pomp but he overshadowed them all whenever he was started even in his first season. Cannot see any other 18 year old doing that barring that Fat Brazilian in his pomp.
In '03 Quaresma was more established footballer than Ronaldo with a better end product although he wasn't as talented as Cristiano. United were linked with Quaresma first and Fergie bought Ronaldo only after his performance against United in the preseason although we were tracking them both for long. When Ronaldinho was made available, we dropped off Quaresma interest and by the team Ronnie's saga ended in failure, Barca had already tapped Quaresma up completely. On a side note both Barcelona and United were in transition with influx of new signings, we created sufficient bandwidth for Ronaldo do develop whilst Barca ran out of patience well with in a season.
You wish
Because it's true. Messi is yet to prove how devastating he can be during a bad or ordinary period of form. That is undeniable.
Wrong. It's you who has been making that point with your goals to games ratio argument. I'm simply arguing Messi is yet to show what he can do during a bad patch of form. What happens is he is on top form, then he gets injured. Repeatedly. He is yet to play long enough to run out of some steam during a season like Ronaldo does. So I don't see why you should assume he if he plays more he will automatically score more. Because if he played the extra games it could mean him losing form, And we all don't know what he would be like without top form.
Are you accusing me of saying he isn't brilliant?
I never said it wasn't. Rooney was every bit as impressive at that age to. Fabregas too. Mature at really young ages. For me though I think it's even more impressive Ronaldo is what he is now, compared to what he was at 18. His progress has been insane.
Fair enough. Soon I believe he will prove you wrong though.
(Mainly because I wish he doesn't prove me wrong...ha ha)
Maybe. We shall see. I'm personally hoping from now both are fit till the end of the season without major injuries for once and that both are on top form till then. Like someone said earlier it would be like Cruyff -Beckenbauer battles all over again.
Word.
No he never, he putting performances which seemed amazing because of his age! He never overshadowed anybody it was the context of his performances that came with his age, don't be fooled.
I know the Quaresma situation, if i didn't i wouldn't even bring it up as an arguement. He may have been a more complete player at the time but like you've pointed out he wasn't as talented and what he had to offer just wasn't enough for them, which was a major blow for him which is why he left to find his feet again.
Dont give me a blinkered opinion. I've been following his career ever since he made his debut at Barca and also in the Under 20 WC and any Barca fan can clarify this for you. He played cameos only in 2004 but in 2005 he got full starts yet Rijkaard was reluctant to play him for 90 minutes in the fear of burning him out. Both Capello and Hitzfeld weren't clueless either when they said he was a real big deal after Maradona and Ronaldo after he took apart both Juventus and Bayern in the preseason when he was played for 90 minutes. It was for the reason they slapped a buy out clause of £100M on par with Ronaldinho well with in a season.
For the start just try grabbing the full video stream of Real Madrid versus Barcelona in 2005 with Ronaldo, Zidane, Ronaldino, Eto, Beckham, Raul, Xavi and many others on the same pitch it would be very easy to figure out the outstanding player in the middle before Rijkaard took him out after 60 minutes.
This quaresma argument was cited on how Fergie was involved in Ronaldo's development not exactly comparing them both. Ronaldo lost his confidence and went on dry spells many a time in his first two seasons at United and also in the first half of 2005. United had the patience to persist with him and over a period of time he gained confidence and never looked back a level commitment you cannot expect from any other big club if any young player, goes on a prolonged bad patch. From Quaresma, Obi Mikel to Dos Santos they would've been better footballers had they come under Fergie rather opting for Barca or Chelsea.
15 goals and 9 assists in 17 games so far this season. Looking through his wiki I think his sick note tag is silly when he's played a full season of games for the last two, he seems to miss the odd league match but plays in cup matches regularly. 101 Appearances in the last three seasons.
He was pretty quiet against Sevilla to be honest but it was a physical game and Barcelona's edge showed a lot. Alves, Keita, Toure, Puyol and Pique all had solid games I thought. When he came into the game in the second half I thought it's been a while since we've seen a memorable goal from him and he came up with two just before the end.
He was pretty quiet against Sevilla to be honest but it was a physical game and Barcelona's edge showed a lot. Alves, Keita, Toure, Puyol and Pique all had solid games I thought. When he came into the game in the second half I thought it's been a while since we've seen a memorable goal from him and he came up with two just before the end.
Barca and their fans were expecting this kid to be special when he was 16 and before. He was still a teenager when Maradona claimed him as the new Maradona.
The expectation has always been there. And to be fair he's lived up to it when fit.
Messi did last Sunday. Why Ronaldo has to be brought into it every time I have no idea.
Did anyone see his goals this weekend. Unbelievable.
I think that's correct. At 18 - 19 I didn't think he would be as good as he is now. I think he's grafted to get to the top. He deserves full credit for it.
Whereas with Messi he was so good at 17-18 it was never really in doubt. He wasn't merely causing problems for teams like a young Ronaldo or even - dare I say it - like Lennon from a couple of years ago. He was actually taking teams like Chelsea apart in the Champions League.
Spot on.
In five years we will obviously see, our opinions differ but i'd put my money on Messi.
What about 2007? This season Messi has turned 21. In the season Ronaldo turned 21 it was 2005/2006. If you think Ronaldo was always as good as Messi at the same age i think you didn't see Messi at that age.
This season Messi went from 20 to 21, he has started the season in great form. When Ronaldo went from 20 to 21 it was 2005/2006, he made 47 appearances and scored 12 goals. So far this season (same stage in career) Messi has made 17 appearances scoring 15 goals.
You see Messi is pretty much 3 years Ronaldos junior but i suppose whilst Ronaldo can go on to "make records people will take an age to match" Messi will stagnate and not develop further as a player?
Who said he wouldn't be anything special, he is special. He just deservedly won the ballon d'or and has already had 2 sensational seasons winning two league titles and the champions league with his team. He is special, he is a world class footballer.
Anyone who says Ronaldo is a miles better finisher than Ronaldo should probably take a look at Messi's first from the weekend.
Good. You know where mine is.
Ronaldo was 21 for most of the 2006/2007 season. If you don't remember how good Ronaldo was that year it's really not my problem but yours. Ronaldo was wrecking defenses in more ways than Messi is doing now.
So you now want to lie Ronaldo made 47 appearances between the age 20 and 21 that year? & that between ages 20 and 21 Messi has only played 17 times?
That's rich coming from you who is so certain Ronaldo will stagnate enough for Messi to catch him. Messi doesn't have to stagnate. It's Ronaldo who has to stagnate for Messi to catch him. . Because Ronaldo's rate of progress is unmatched in world football and there is no indication he has stopped yet. Messi may be 21 but Ronaldo is still young and learning at 23 turning 24. You however don't ever factor that into the equation whenever you discuss Messi. You just assume Messi's trajectory will keep going up while Ronaldo's will some how freeze along the way.
Then why do you love painting him as if he is suddenly going to stagnate and have Messi overwhelmingly overtake him? On top of your constant talking down of his teamwork and ability to link play with his teammates?
Whether Ronaldo stagnates or develops, as long as Messi remains fit it should be impossible for Ronaldo or anyone else even to come close to him unless some other whiz kid surfaces from South America.
That's utter bullshit.
Still arguing about this?
Messi is arguably a more naturally gifted player.
Ronaldo is definitely a more effective player.
= Ronaldo is currently a better player.
Messi is arguably a more naturally gifted player.
Ronaldo is definitely a more effective player.
= Ronaldo is currently a better player.
Good. You know where mine is.
Ronaldo was 21 for most of the 2006/2007 season. If you don't remember how good Ronaldo was that year it's really not my problem but yours. Ronaldo was wrecking defenses in more ways than Messi is doing now.
So you now want to lie Ronaldo made 47 appearances between the age 20 and 21 that year? & that between ages 20 and 21 Messi has only payed 17 times?
Who is lieing? Messi started this season as a 20 year old. In the season Ronaldo started as a 20 year old he made 47 appearances scoring 12 goals. Messi turned 21 at the beginning of this season and has so far scored 15 in 17. But if you would rather take the season before then he scored 16 in 40. Still a greater return than Ronaldos 12 in 47.
Ronaldo made great leaps of development when he started to bring his game together at 21/22/23 but i don't think he will still make great leaps and bounds the way he did. He has improved so much that it seems unlikely to me at least that he will improve a great deal more.
Messi was basically brilliant from day one unlike Ronaldo, and has steadily been improving but never really changing his game the way Ronaldo did because Messi doesn't need to. His natural game remains the same as it ever was and is still as effective.
I'm not saying Ronaldo will stagnate. He is too good to stagnate but i do believe that Messi has been the better player at every stage in his career and will continue to be. Messi will never have a season where he scores over 40 goals but his all round contribution can't be measured with just goals. His contribution to his team this year has been astounding because Messi can be your heartbeat, your match winner, your go to guy and your creator.
Maybe you think i've been unfair on Ronaldo but i seriously suggest you start paying closer attention to Messi to see why so many people rate him so highly.
I think this argument should stop ,the past couple of years Ronaldo was better than Messi. This season Messi looks better because he's been fit and has played matches in a row , If Barca wins some silverware and Messi keeps up his form he'll surely be favorite for the next Ballon d'Or.
This was a thread supposed to be debating if Messi could become a true great of the game.
Anytime people mention Messi on this forum you basically get uproar that anyone could rate someone as much as Ronaldo.
I mean the Ribery thread is a perfect example. The origional poster says "Ribery is quite possibly the bpitw on current form" and he gets slated and a load of people come in with "feckin wum" "Ronaldo is the best" etc.
You can't talk about any other player glowingly without Ronaldo being mentioned as superior.
Personally i don't mind the debate and on a United forum it is only natural that Ronaldo will have greater support than any other player. It would be damning if he didn't.
Anytime people mention Messi on this forum you basically get uproar that anyone could rate someone as much as Ronaldo.
I mean the Ribery thread is a perfect example. The origional poster says "Ribery is quite possibly the bpitw on current form" and he gets slated and a load of people come in with "feckin wum" "Ronaldo is the best" etc.
You can't talk about any other player glowingly without Ronaldo being mentioned as superior.
Personally i don't mind the debate and on a United forum it is only natural that Ronaldo will have greater support than any other player. It would be damning if he didn't.
It is you taking cheap shots at him in every thread
Messi: I Prefer Team Trophies To Ballon d'Or
Lionel Messi has revealed that he expected to finish behind Cristiano Ronaldo in the race for the Ballon d'Or and would rather win trophies with Barcelona than individual prizes.
The Argentinian forward had many fans hoping that he would be rewarded for his outstanding performances over the past 12 months, but had to settle for second place in the France Football honours list.
While several of his Barcelona team-mates admitted that they understood the decision, Messi explained that he did not think that he would pick up the gong and was instead aiming to help the Blaugrana win cups.
“Any player would like to win the Ballon d’Or, but neither am I obsessed with it," he told the club's official website. "I would rather win trophies for Barça or for Argentina.
“I expected to finish second. Ronaldo deserved to win it after everything he achieved and because he had a great year where he won two important trophies.
"All I can do is carry on working and trying to do things well."
Barcelona continue their set of matches against their title rivals at the weekend, after beating Sevilla away last time out, as Valencia visit Camp Nou.
“It will be a difficult game like the one with Sevilla and most of the games we have played," he continued. "But we have to stay calm and keep playing the way we have shown we can.
“We always go out to win every game, whoever we are playing. We know these games will be difficult and that we are playing direct rivals.
"Winning against direct rivals is the kind of thing that makes you feel stronger."
Lionel Messi has revealed that he expected to finish behind Cristiano Ronaldo in the race for the Ballon d'Or and would rather win trophies with Barcelona than individual prizes.
The Argentinian forward had many fans hoping that he would be rewarded for his outstanding performances over the past 12 months, but had to settle for second place in the France Football honours list.
While several of his Barcelona team-mates admitted that they understood the decision, Messi explained that he did not think that he would pick up the gong and was instead aiming to help the Blaugrana win cups.
“Any player would like to win the Ballon d’Or, but neither am I obsessed with it," he told the club's official website. "I would rather win trophies for Barça or for Argentina.
“I expected to finish second. Ronaldo deserved to win it after everything he achieved and because he had a great year where he won two important trophies.
"All I can do is carry on working and trying to do things well."
Barcelona continue their set of matches against their title rivals at the weekend, after beating Sevilla away last time out, as Valencia visit Camp Nou.
“It will be a difficult game like the one with Sevilla and most of the games we have played," he continued. "But we have to stay calm and keep playing the way we have shown we can.
“We always go out to win every game, whoever we are playing. We know these games will be difficult and that we are playing direct rivals.
"Winning against direct rivals is the kind of thing that makes you feel stronger."
Well in order to get these individual prizes you need to help your team get the collective prizes. It's hard to tell from these interview if he's sincere or if he's politically correct. I bet he's being a little bit hypocrite
Lionel Messi has revealed that he expected to finish behind Cristiano Ronaldo in the race for the Ballon d'Or and would rather win trophies with Barcelona than individual prizes.
The Argentinian forward had many fans hoping that he would be rewarded for his outstanding performances over the past 12 months, but had to settle for second place in the France Football honours list.
While several of his Barcelona team-mates admitted that they understood the decision, Messi explained that he did not think that he would pick up the gong and was instead aiming to help the Blaugrana win cups.
“Any player would like to win the Ballon d’Or, but neither am I obsessed with it," he told the club's official website. "I would rather win trophies for Barça or for Argentina.
“I expected to finish second. Ronaldo deserved to win it after everything he achieved and because he had a great year where he won two important trophies.
"All I can do is carry on working and trying to do things well."
Barcelona continue their set of matches against their title rivals at the weekend, after beating Sevilla away last time out, as Valencia visit Camp Nou.
“It will be a difficult game like the one with Sevilla and most of the games we have played," he continued. "But we have to stay calm and keep playing the way we have shown we can.
“We always go out to win every game, whoever we are playing. We know these games will be difficult and that we are playing direct rivals.
"Winning against direct rivals is the kind of thing that makes you feel stronger."
Why
?His time will come and he knows it. He wants to concentrate on his team and he said Ronaldo deserved it. What more do you want?
Even if its a United board almost all posters barring the Kemo and the fanboy brigade have a balanced opinion on any other footballer and never shrinked away from crediting players from other clubs for the sake of doing it. Ribery thread was bit gimpish and typical knee jerk attacks from the same bunch.
Perfectly summarized.
Even if its a United board almost all posters barring the Kemo and the fanboy brigade have a balanced opinion on any other footballer and never shrinked away from crediting players from other clubs for the sake of doing it. Ribery thread was bit gimpish and typical knee jerk attacks from the same bunch.
hey, he did say ribery is the bpitw on current form. i said fecking wum but i didnt mention ronaldo. He is the bpitw, but not on current form.
Everyone knows its postal pat
Thats retarded mate.
Anyone who says Ronaldo is a miles better finisher than Ronaldo should probably take a look at Messi's first from the weekend.
Goalkeeper should have saved it. Great bit of skill though, overall.
How should the goal keeper have saved it?
Yeah the keeper knew the lad was going to flash a first time volley under pressure into the far corner before he could even set himself. Because players very often hit shots as well as that at top speed.
He probably thought like everyone else that a player with his ball control would bring it down and take it in.
I'm not saying no keeper in the world would have saved it but it would have taken a special save.
Again banal attempts to belittle Messi.
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