Lionel Messi
- Thread starter cesc's_mullet
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What? He has no-where near the range of Maradona. He's excellent when it comes to short passing near and inside the box, but he doesn't pull the strings of attack from as deep as Maradona did.
Maradona drops several passes that would make us think of Scholes in that vid. I might've seen Messi impress like that once or twice, but Maradona did it with consummate ease near all of his career.
Maradona may have been a better passer of the ball than Messi, but you've got to remember that the two are different sort of players.
Messi has made his career as a winger, and then as a false nine striker. Maradona, on the other hand, was always more of a second striker type player. His creativity and ability to assist was more important, so it's no surprise to see that he would have been a better passer of the ball than Messi is. With Messi, you've got other things that he does a lot better than Maradona. He'll score a lot more goals than him, but then again, that's the very least you would expect.
To be honest, the two shouldn't be compared as often as they are. Apart from the fact that they were both small Argentinians who had a gift with the ball at their feet, there aren't too many similarities between the two. It would actually be more viable to compare Messi to a player like Pele, if we're comparing him to some of the all-time legends.
Messi has made his career as a winger, and then as a false nine striker. Maradona, on the other hand, was always more of a second striker type player. His creativity and ability to assist was more important, so it's no surprise to see that he would have been a better passer of the ball than Messi is. With Messi, you've got other things that he does a lot better than Maradona. He'll score a lot more goals than him, but then again, that's the very least you would expect.
To be honest, the two shouldn't be compared as often as they are. Apart from the fact that they were both small Argentinians who had a gift with the ball at their feet, there aren't too many similarities between the two. It would actually be more viable to compare Messi to a player like Pele, if we're comparing him to some of the all-time legends.
Last week on Canal+ they made a study on Messi's game and they concluded that he was the Barca player (bar the keeper of course) who runs the less in total.He is the one who walks the most but while doing so he's always analyzing the position of his teammates and opponents.
It's irresistable, one has to make up a kind of opinion where one edges it over the other... Or at least that's what my views do. I just see Maradona as a bigger force for the entire team, rather than just against the other team. As well as combining it with most of what makes Messi so magical. That and the fact that he didn't at any time play in any side as well-oiled as the one Messi plays for, makes me regard Maradona as the better player. Just an opinion.
There's nothing wrong with comparing the two of them, but it's just the fact that it happens on a constant basis, when they're actually very different footballers. Very rarely do we hear the argument of Pele vs Messi coming up, even though it would probably be more appropriate, if we're trying to do a direct comparison. The only time a Pele vs Messi debate ever seems to come up is when Pele starts running his mouth off.
Here is a sample of Messi's passing from more than 2 years ago, when Messi was still not really known for his passing.. His passing has improved significantly since then..
Not a surprise. I was at the Betis game last weekend and he only ran when he actually had the ball, for the most part.
the hattrick:
Currently there are no words or adjectives to describe him. Simply put, he is just miles ahead of any other player currently playing.
He is just a joy to watch. F you Messi. Tell the world you're a United fan!
He is just a joy to watch. F you Messi. Tell the world you're a United fan!
It's not that difficult to watch them play though. Here's 6 of Pele's 7 games in the '70 WC, took about two minutes to find and even with slow internet this could be downloaded in a day...
Brazil-Czechoslovakia:
Brazil-England:
Brazil-Peru
Brazil-Uruguay
Brazil-Italy
Code:
http://rapidshare.com/files/190441181/1970_Brazil_Czechoslovakia_up__joefa.part01.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/190446511/1970_Brazil_Czechoslovakia_up__joefa.part02.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/190451381/1970_Brazil_Czechoslovakia_up__joefa.part03.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/190455921/1970_Brazil_Czechoslovakia_up__joefa.part04.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/190460512/1970_Brazil_Czechoslovakia_up__joefa.part05.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/190464830/1970_Brazil_Czechoslovakia_up__joefa.part06.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/190469533/1970_Brazil_Czechoslovakia_up__joefa.part07.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/190474022/1970_Brazil_Czechoslovakia_up__joefa.part08.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/190478351/1970_Brazil_Czechoslovakia_up__joefa.part09.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/190479702/1970_Brazil_Czechoslovakia_up__joefa.part10.rarBrazil-England:
Code:
http://rapidshare.com/files/189430259/1970_Brazil_England_eng_joefa.part01.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/189439066/1970_Brazil_England_eng_joefa.part02.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/189453044/1970_Brazil_England_eng_joefa.part03.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/189462710/1970_Brazil_England_eng_joefa.part04.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/189468382/1970_Brazil_England_eng_joefa.part05.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/189473913/1970_Brazil_England_eng_joefa.part06.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/189479018/1970_Brazil_England_eng_joefa.part07.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/189483879/1970_Brazil_England_eng_joefa.part08.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/189488782/1970_Brazil_England_eng_joefa.part09.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/189491916/1970_Brazil_England_eng_joefa.part10.rarBrazil-Peru
Code:
http://rapidshare.com/files/190293772/1970_Brazil_Peru_en_up_joefa.part01.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/190302692/1970_Brazil_Peru_en_up_joefa.part02.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/190320088/1970_Brazil_Peru_en_up_joefa.part03.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/190329066/1970_Brazil_Peru_en_up_joefa.part04.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/190337881/1970_Brazil_Peru_en_up_joefa.part05.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/190346517/1970_Brazil_Peru_en_up_joefa.part06.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/190354666/1970_Brazil_Peru_en_up_joefa.part07.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/190362351/1970_Brazil_Peru_en_up_joefa.part08.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/190369887/1970_Brazil_Peru_en_up_joefa.part09.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/190377712/1970_Brazil_Peru_en_up_joefa.part10.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/190380251/1970_Brazil_Peru_en_up_joefa.part11.rarBrazil-Uruguay
Code:
http://rapidshare.com/files/190490587/1970_Brazil_Uruguay_joefa.part01.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/190495127/1970_Brazil_Uruguay_joefa.part02.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/190499682/1970_Brazil_Uruguay_joefa.part03.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/190503899/1970_Brazil_Uruguay_joefa.part04.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/190508670/1970_Brazil_Uruguay_joefa.part05.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/190513572/1970_Brazil_Uruguay_joefa.part06.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/190518577/1970_Brazil_Uruguay_joefa.part07.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/190523575/1970_Brazil_Uruguay_joefa.part08.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/190528827/1970_Brazil_Uruguay_joefa.part09.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/190530958/1970_Brazil_Uruguay_joefa.part10.rarBrazil-Italy
Code:
http://rapidshare.com/files/177205153/1970_Brazil_Italy.part01.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/140495984/1970_Brazil_Italy.part02.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/140501031/1970_Brazil_Italy.part03.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/140506352/1970_Brazil_Italy.part04.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/140643977/1970_Brazil_Italy.part05.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/140648595/1970_Brazil_Italy.part06.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/140652906/1970_Brazil_Italy.part07.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/140437755/1970_Brazil_Italy.part08.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/140442735/1970_Brazil_Italy.part09.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/140448072/1970_Brazil_Italy.part10.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/140453555/1970_Brazil_Italy.part11.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/140465747/1970_Brazil_Italy.part12.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/140476187/1970_Brazil_Italy.part13.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/140482633/1970_Brazil_Italy.part14.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/140486162/1970_Brazil_Italy.part15.rarYou do have to wonder why people do want to talk about players they haven't seen them though. I think Danny would just laugh at the thought of Messi being a better passer once he saw just one game of his.
The era Maradona played in was far more cynical and ruthless with better defenders and defensive set-ups, not only that, Italian football of the time was notoriously miserly and negative. Defenders would take attackers out wherever possible and because of this, great goals scored then could be said to have been of the utmost quality.
No matter what people say, Messi plays in a league and time where there are very few defenders of any repute at all, and although the game is much faster, it's also less cynical and favourable for attackers.
Messi is as much a victim of this circumstance as Maradona is a beneficiary of his time and the league he played in. Neither could help this, but it's always going to be a measuring stick.
Having said the above, what Messi is doing over the last 12 months with his overall game is standing him in great stead against almost any others outside the top 5 who are generally seen as the greatest of all time. What people in this thread and others fail to realise or even consider is that the level of mastery Messi exhibits is what is needed by default to even be considered in such company.
I get the feeling most on here have no idea of how good the likes of: Platini, Zico, Puskas, Cruyff and so forth were as every Messi thread is reductive to the point of him only being mentioned with the likes of Maradona and Pele, which, to this point in time, is rather misguided.
Messi, for example, has just matched Platini's feat with his 3* Ballon d'Or, yet, there's no mention of it on here - like Messi is miles above Platini. Platini played in the same league as Maradona - a far, far harder one than today's La Liga - and was top scorer for 3 seasons running from midfield. He was also fantastic - truly, truly all-time standard at EC 1984 and has a storied career in the world cups. I don't think many here consider how good he was and thus, he gets no mention at all. As I said in the previous paragraph, Platini is one of many at such a level who played out a career doing phenomenal things with a ball who comfortably stand in the company of what Messi has done to date as individuals.
I'm extremely impressed with Messi's development - he is getting better and better - but even now, I wouldn't put his skilset outside of dribbling above the aformentioned players and his passing is certainly not par with Zico, Maradona and definitely not Platini. He still has a way to go to be in their league in terms of vision and passing, but with the way he is developing there's nothing to say he won't get there as a I don't think we've seen him close to topping out any particular aspect of his game outside of dribbling and his finishing.
Messi is following the path to greatness, he's not re-inventing it, and as such, his longevity and what he does on the international stage will determine where he ends up when all is said and done. To match the likes of Cruyff, Maradona and Pele he will have to do great things at a world cup. Have to. I think for others, such as Platini and Zico, he'll just need to keep up what he's doing at the moment. I mention only those who played his position or thereabouts, btw.
Platini was my favourite European player back in the 80's. But he won his first Ballon d'Or at the age of 28. What Messi has done up to this moment is way more than what the other great players have achieved at the same age with the possible exclusion of Pele who became world champion with Brazil already as a teenager.
Maradona had achieved far less at Messi's age, the same goes virtually for any other player in history.
It's a bit baffling to mention Puskas, as great he was as a goalscorer. Even Ronaldo is scoring goals at a higher rate than Puskas, as a forward Messi is clearly superior to Puskas in every significant respect.
Maradona had achieved far less at Messi's age, the same goes virtually for any other player in history.
It's a bit baffling to mention Puskas, as great he was as a goalscorer. Even Ronaldo is scoring goals at a higher rate than Puskas, as a forward Messi is clearly superior to Puskas in every significant respect.
Aye, that's why I think people can over-egg his work ethic if he happens to chase back into midfield the ball once a game, whereas in reality he does very little off the ball (even less than Ibrahimovic did). And why would you want him to waste his energy when he's so devastating on the ball.
He's probably told not to run that much, I'd say he's the sort of player who would if he was told to do so, but Barca never rest him, ever, so they probably don't want him overworked in matches. Xavi on the other hand runs more than any other player on the pitch, hence he plays less games, but they can (amazingly) afford to rest him more given the midfield they have. It's clever on their part.
Top header that is from him
3 unbelievable goals. Must of watched them ten times now.
The header is class
The header is class
Players peak at different rates. At age 20, Messi, for all his precociousness, was well behind Ronaldo and Pele.
Achievement is relative to the team a player is in, usually. Individual brilliance, however, will stand regardless.
Messi's situation is wholly different to those you mention as he has never had to move to another club and he is coming through the ranks with a system he knows nothing but. If he stays at Barcelona for his whole career, the only player in that class who will have followed the same trajectory will be Pele.
Maradona's brilliance, even at 16! Was comparable to what it was at 25 when he won the world cup. What changed was his temprament/maturity and the level of player he had supplementing that talent.
Platini coming through with a team of Barcelona's class would have been just as, if not more frightening, a proposition as Messi is and I think you could say that for all the players mentioned at that level of peerage.
That Messi can even be mentioned in the same breath as them speaks volumes for what he has done at the tender age of 24, however.
About Puskas... you must be talking about the fat, old Puskas, because the Puskas of Kipset Honved and Hungary, in his 20's, is another animal altogether.
His header was very good indeed.If it wasn't for his height he'd score more regularly from it, he's really good at heading the ball
His header against us was class to be fair
Wasn't that a "perfect hat-trick"? Header, left foot, right foot.
I don't agree with that. Platini is Zidane level and didn't have the same technique as Zidane either, let alone Messi.
You don't need to talk about the team around him to see that Messi's ability on the ball are at a level that simply can't be matched by anyone save Maradona, Pele and perhaps a young Ronaldo. He does stuff others simply can't or couldn't.
Why are only dribbling maestros candidates for best player ever? How about defenders, keepers, and deep lying midfielders?
I'm bored of Messi.
Because the 'dribbling maestros' have much more to their game than just dribbling.
I'm not saying they don't
They're not the only ones that have multi faceted games though. As a defender I'm a bit peeved
They're all very much appreciated though, Xavi has got a lot of praise over the last few years with some people even rating him higher than Messi. Let's face it though, Messi is on a different level to him and it's quite clear. I haven't seen Pele or Maradona but I'd assume it's the same situation.
then go to a ping pong forum
I was very specific in my post, in which I said:
I didn't judge based on something I didn't see. I watched the clip, and commented on it, unlike you, as you commented on my post without reading it.
Maradona's passing brilliance is there for all to see though, that's his passing highlights. Saying his passing's better than those in the clips and his passing's better overall are largely the same thing. You'd probably just appreciate it more/differently if you saw a game...it was a completely harmless comment. I do genuinely think you'd laugh at the thought of it. Would you be interesting in watching a game of his?
Of course, and to your surprise, I have.. However, that's not the point. I was talking about a specific clip which somebody posted here as a "proof" that Maradona's passing is way better than Messi's. I was merely pointing out the fact (or the opinion) that the ones shown in THAT clip are not out of Messi's league..
Cal? Has gotten into your heads.
I don't know what you mean with the first paragraph. "Platini is Zidane level." Zidane level at what?
Also, in terms of technique, what do you think seperates Zidane from Messi?
Your second paragraph is hyperbolic. Those aren't the only 3 players who had technique on par with Messi.
Ronaldinho, Zico, Magico Gonzalez, Platini (his passing is equivocal to Messi's dribbling, his free kicks were on par with any great who has played. His ability to trap a ball is on par as was his finishing and overall shooting technique) all come to mind immediately and if I gave it some thought there would be others.
This 'Messi, Maradona & Pele' only thing is a fallacy. There have been great players who are now looked upon in a different light because they didn't win the world cup. Zico is one such player, Platini is another. Prior to WC '86 it was pretty much a 3-way tie between those two and Maradona if one of the other two had won the WC and Maradona did not, they would have claimed the lion's share of the praise that is now reserved for Maradona. There's very little that seperates them on the field outside of Maradona's ability to dribble to such a standard and carry the ball on lengthy runs as well as his charisma and will to win. As number ten's all 3 of them were phenomenal players - there's no chasm between them and where Zico and Platini could not dribble as well as Messi, they had the passing and free kick ability he does not (to the same degree).
Messi dribbles at a higher speed. Sure some of the others don't have his speed and therefor it's easy to assume that Messi is better at dribbling but then again, you wouldn't know how good they'd be at dribbling at Messi's pace if they had it.
There's no doubting Messi's dribbling is comfortably up there with the best ever in that facet of the game. Ronaldo, Maradona, Magico Gonzalez, Garrincha, Best... Messi doesn't look at of place in the company of any of them.
& you haven't even mentioned the Dutch master himself...or Best
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