I'd love to see Messi play for a lesser team....well, he kind of does at international level. That said, I'm not saying Aguero, Tevez, Higiuan, Mascherano, Pastore, Zanetti et al are mediocre players but heh..talk about underachieving. But they've underachieved for years...or were they simply overrated.
Lionel Messi
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No it is not. But you can stop replying to me, tbh. I'm bored of you by now.
Real have beaten Barcelona?
What I interpret (whether the author intends or not) from this post is that fans are fickle and that if you don't play in a WC and have a decent tournament you essentially don't exist (unless your Best, who's club performances induced circle jerks in the Favelas of Rio despite there being just the one b&w telly in the city).
And you're calling someone contradictory.
You should read the post again, because i implied no such thing. My point was that Best made a mark without the benefit of a WC stage that was the only medium at the time which could raise a players profile to superstar status. Only Di Stefano before or since has managed that feat.
The fact they never ever played in one, yet are still widely regarded as among the all time greats, only highlights their tremendous impact on the footballing world at that time.
Messi has had the benefit of every footballing medium possible to raise his profile, and unquestionably his club form has earned him the right for such lofty comparisons. However his failure to contribute anything of significance, to the performance of his national team will only do his comparison harm. There is simply no getting away from that i'm afraid.
It's nothing to do with fans, what are you on about? It is about coverage, any player who performs in a WC even today, can lift himself to a worldwide profile with a few weeks. There is nothing in club football that can achieve the same almost legendary status in such a short time. that is why the WC is still the pinnacle of football and also why it still has relevance in determining the legendary status of players. Messi may indeed surpass that need but WC is not just about assessing Messi's merits, the impact on all players still has to be taken into account.
I am not dismissing CL or club football, but those who argue the WC is now of little consequence are missing the point. Look at Ozil and Khedira, no-one had heard of them, yet off the back of a few good performances, they both earn moves to Real Madrid.
Yes they had! Most people on this site wanted us to sign Ozil before the world cup. Making a name for yourself at the world cup isn't always a good thing either, just look at Kleberson.
why? have you seen cruyff, pele, best or distefano play for a lesser team?
in fact, maradona may have played for a lesser team. where he succeded. but when he played for two great teams -barcelona and argentina 1982- ha failed
Did i not make the point that even if Madrid are considered a strong rival that the lack of them from everywhere else negates that a bit. Look back 4 or 5 years in the CL there was Madrid, Barca, Chelsea, Milan and Utd, who all had a very credible chance of winning it ever year.
Now there are only 2 teams who are ever going to win this trophy because they are so clearly much better than anybody else. So it is not a circular argument really, the CL is not a particularly strong competition now, compared to only a few years ago. As you say if Barca beat Madrid there is no other credible contender really who has a chance, and probably the same applies if Madrid were to beat Barca. That's 2 strong teams fighting it out, not a 'take your pick' from 5 or 6 contenders in a very high quality competition.
Maradona is also a nutcase. He's a case that's full of nuts.
Kleberson is proof of what i am saying. We bought him because he performed at a WC not because of anything he had achieved at club level. That suggests that people still put a lot of stock in what a player does or doesn't do at a WC, even though i agree it is not always an accurate barometer of how good a player actually is.
The point is the profile gained from a WC still surpasses anything in club football. Therefore it still has relevance, that is my whole point. It is all i am arguing really, i am not saying club football does not count, only that the WC still counts too.
No-one can seriously suggest that Messi not performing at a WC will have no bearing on his comparisons with Pele or Maradona. It will, righlty or wrongly. Why because the WC still matters to a lot of people all around the world and football is not just about the adventures of a dozen big club teams in Europe.
Im sorry that is not the pinnacle of football for everyone in the world. The WC is and imo always will be.
Football support is subjective, i doubt the CL is the pinnacle of your interest if your club is not in it, or is ever likely to be in it. Nice to watch and pick a team to follow who may or may not have an international in there from your country, but that is not the same as every country around the globe with an interest in football, picking the best players their nation has to offer and trying to qualify for the biggest global football competiton in the world.
Ok fair point regarding Ozil but then how about Gyan? Or Khedira?
Take the example of Shearer and Lineker. Shearer is the greatest goalscorer the PL has produced. Lineker scored 11 goals in 2 WC's, and earned a move to Barca. Lineker is considered a bigger England legend than Shearer because of his perfromances for England in WC's. Would you suggest that Shearers failure to replicate that feat, has impacted on any comparisons with Lineker, and whether you believe that is fair or not?
Tbh i don't know why we are arguing, i agree that club form is important. So if you also agree that the WC has relevance in determining greatness, but is not the only measure then we are in agreement all round.
I thought you were arguing that the WC performances of Messi should have no bearing on his final status, if you agree that on a global scale failure to at least have a couple of good showings in a WC, will affect his comparisons to Pele/Maradona. then again we are in agreement.
I don't agree that Messi has to win, but i think it goes without saying if he finishes his career without ever performing really well in one, any comparisons to the other 2 will be tainted by that fact, rightly or wrongly.
To claim otherwise would be the same as claiming if you perform brilliantly for your club domestically for 10 years every year, yet fail to ever shine in the CL, it would make no difference to how you were viewed. I cannot agree with that.
Look at Monty in golf for an example. 7 orders of merit on the trot, shitloads of tournaments all over the world, the record points total in ryder cups and basically one of the best golfers Brtiain has ever produced over a 15 year period. But did his failure to win a major affect how he is viewed compared to Faldo? I would say absolutely yes. Is it unfair, probably, but it is an irrefutable blot on his credentials and will always be used as a measure of his achievements.
Monty is known as the greatest player never to win a major, Jimmy White the best never to win a world title, unfair reflections on otherwise extremely successful and brilliant careers. But failure to achieve at the pinnacle of your respective sport, will always leave a permanent stain on a reputation, and the higher the reputation the greater glee the media take in highlighting a potential weakness.
Messi could simply find himself in the bracket of the greatest player never to win a WC.
They weren't great sides. Besides he was very young...moving to a new country couldn't have been easy. As for 82, he was kicked from pillar to post...much like Pele in 66, even that great Brazilian side resorted to those tactics - something he probably had to adapt to. But yeah...I'd love to see Messi play in a different side, this Barca's probably the best side ever, if not...then it's not far off. I wonder if he'll play his peak out at Barca...because I'd give my right testicle to see him at United - City's probably more likely, though. Anyway, he's a great player no one is suggesting he isn't - he's on a different planet to Ronaldo. Oh and the Maradona comparisons are a bit unfair, Diego used to dictate things from the middle, and had the charisma to improve the performances of players around him, whereas Messi's a forward....who crowns an already great side with his genius.
I agree with the bit in bold. However since last season he is starting to adapt his game more and more to that of a proper playmaker. For example in almost all of their games this season he is usually the second or third highest passer in the team after Xavi. More than all their other actual midfielders. In the last clasico as another example he was the second highest passer from both teams after Xavi, more than Iniesta, Fabregas, Alonso, e.t.c.
His involvement in their play is growing more and more. For a forward to make 90-100+ passes in games regularly, I'm not sure one can limit his role (in the barca team at least) to that of just a forward anymore, forward playmaker maybe? I don't know what to call his role anymore to be honest.
His involvement in their play is growing more and more. For a forward to make 90-100+ passes in games regularly, I'm not sure one can limit his role (in the barca team at least) to that of just a forward anymore, forward playmaker maybe? I don't know what to call his role anymore to be honest.
Yes, yes, yes!
Another point i'd like to point out is that Maradona didn't go to Napoli for glory or to win titles, he went for money. He was offered the most money by Napoli for his services. Yes as an emotional soul he did fall in love with it but it was still bitter sweet like almost everything to do with the legend that is Maradona.
So this "he has to do it for a smaller club" stuff is slightly "rich" considering small time Napoli made Maradona the richest man in the sport.
Also a point about Cruyff, he played in a fecking great team in the world cup. They played a new brand of football as a team, it was new, dynamic and had everyone pissing their undersized shorts or jizzing...
But then they lost, with the great Cruyff to the Germans, who were bloody brilliant.
Cruyff may well have inspired them but they were great as proven by again reaching the final in 78 whilst Cruyff blew smoke rings in a more liberated country than Argentina. So again i stress the point, individuals don't make a team, if the team is no good to begin with they wont win anything regardless of one great player. If the team is solid the one great player can make a difference, stress the word can.
But then they lost, with the great Cruyff to the Germans, who were bloody brilliant.
Cruyff may well have inspired them but they were great as proven by again reaching the final in 78 whilst Cruyff blew smoke rings in a more liberated country than Argentina. So again i stress the point, individuals don't make a team, if the team is no good to begin with they wont win anything regardless of one great player. If the team is solid the one great player can make a difference, stress the word can.
his role is officially Tyrant Destroyer.
Cal, Cheif and chums are Tyrants and he's destroying them. They build up bricks to undermine him, he destroys them they do it again, it happens again. They have cursed themselves. The best thing they could do would be to bow down and become the biggest fanboys of the lad the world has ever seen. Only then might Messi stop his continued assent towards the pinacle of world football.
He's arguably been Argentina's best player in every single tournament they've been involved since his emergence.
.... and that is why it should not be used as a yardstick to determine greatness ... it is too short a time/too few games. There are too many statistical outliers at play, that skew comparisons at WC tournaments.
Ask yourself this question, do you know if Pele and Maradona were significantly influential throughout those tournaments or just in a couple of the games in them ?
Yet the star of that team, Muller, does't get half the attention that they do, and I'd argue that neither Ozil, and especially Khedira have amounted to much since. As others have pointed out already, having a good WC, but not backing it up then domestically (at arguably the highest levels, La Liga & ECL) doesn't suddenly give you some sort of special bonus had you not attended a WC yet were consistently quality in just the domestic tourneys league/EC.
So in summary then, based on what you've said I think, is that di Stefano was probably the best player ever but because he didn't play in a WC he can't be the best ever even though he was.
Van Basten failed to score a single goal in WC games. By contrast Klose has scored 14. Yet, no one would be stupid enough to compare van Basten to Klose, the gulf in class between them is huge. Arguably, the only centre forward in the history of the game whose legendary status is comparable to van Basten's is L. Ronlado. Klose shows that the importance of the WC performances shouldn't be over estimated.
Greatness in football cannot be objectively measured. The key thing is what people think. If the majority of fans think that Messi is up there with Maradona, no facts about his (lack of) success in international games would reflect on his legendary status. And if Messi goes on to perform at the same level for the next 5-6 years and wins on the way another 2-3 CL titles, you can bet your house on the fact that most fans in the world will consider him as great a player as Maradona, if not better.
Greatness in football cannot be objectively measured. The key thing is what people think. If the majority of fans think that Messi is up there with Maradona, no facts about his (lack of) success in international games would reflect on his legendary status. And if Messi goes on to perform at the same level for the next 5-6 years and wins on the way another 2-3 CL titles, you can bet your house on the fact that most fans in the world will consider him as great a player as Maradona, if not better.
Ronaldo will be considered as vastly superior if he wins a major tournament medal with Portugal and La Liga with Real Madrid because you can only measure footballers by trophies they have won.
I'm talking about L. Ronaldo, not about C. Ronaldo.
It's not the fact Klose has so many WC goals that people go on about, but rather the slop he's put them in against. It's also a fact that to be recognised as an elite you have to have had a great club and country career, or, an absolutely phenomenal club career with little chance to shine at Int. stage (shite country, or injured at the time those international tournaments come round.)
To the bolded: Puskas, Eusebio and Gerd Mueller are all rated above Van Basten with the likes of Nordahl, Romario and Kocsis being comfortably par with Van Basten.
Klose shows more that a load of goals against unimpressive sides in World Cups with next to nothing of any merit to show at club level is easily dismissable, not that great performances in the latter stages of WC's is.
IF Messi continues along his current path constantly not displaying the same form at International level whilst being part of an amazing club side surrounded by great players, more questions will be asked as to why that's the case than not. It would actually be a bigger blight on him than it is now. So rather than consistent brilliance for Barcelona drawing him closer to Maradona and the like, it'll more than likely push him further away if he shows nothing like that level for his country.
I agree to a point, but as you said it's what people think. The bottom line is more people's opinions rightly or wrongly are swayed by what happens in the WC, than the CL.
If not then Klose would not be considered in the same terms as Klinsmann and Muller. But he is Germany's all time record goal scorer in WC's, which is a big achievement in itself, and regardless of his club achievements who can say he doesn't deserve it. Proven consistency over multiple tournaments and not always in the strongest German teams.
However you try and dress it up, the WC is still the biggest event in football, and like it or not, logical or not, people remember who performs well in them. For the same reasons the EC is a bigger event than the copa America because of the increased western coverage, so the likes of Van Basten and Platini are remembered for their triumphs in that comp, regardless of never reproducing at the WC.
By the same rule you could argue that Klose is proof that winning CL's is unnecessary if you can perform on the biggest stage of all. He has achieved legendary status in World football because of his contributions to the German national team. His club record is almost insignificant due to that achievement.
Pele, Ronaldo, Zidane, Maradona not only won the WC but played in more than one final, and were instrumental to their teams victiories.
Messi is not playing with a group of shit players in the current Argentina team. FFS if our lot was called the Golden Generation then feck knows what league that puts Argentina's current squad. I don't think it is unfair to expect Messi, as comfortably the best player in the world to have at the very least a very good WC, during his career with him proving himself on the biggest stage of all by inspiring his team to at least one final.
The same applies with C. ronaldo really, he needs to start inspiring that team as his talent suggests he should and like he does for Madrid. there is absolutely no reason whatsoever why Messi and Ronaldo cannot put their marks on the WC stage. The only players regarded as the greatest who didn't, never even got the chance to play in one. both Messi and Ronaldoi have the chance to cement their greatness beyond any dispute, they just have to take it.
What amazes me is that folks continually look past the fact that Messi has been arguably his star/best player at each tournament he has played and that since 2006, the players that have played for Argentina have been decidedly average, and in the case of their defenders, brutal. It wouldn't have made any difference in all likelihood had Maradona and Pele had been playing in those shambolic teams.
Was going to say the same thing myself. There's definitely some truth to the idea that most of the people who weren't alive to see Maradona play (and have no inclination to watch him at a later date) - which will be around half of the population by the time Messi ends his career - will simply claim Messi to be the best player to grace the game, and if he continues to do as what he's doing then most people of this era will happily ignore his unspectacular international form, possibly enough to create a consensus that he is in fact the best...whether that's true or not.
I don't think that's true. You talk as if there are well established facts about people's ratings of football players. From what I know, van Basten is widely regarded on the continent as the best centre forward in the history of European football. That's my personal impression, there is no empirical research that can confirm it though. The same holds for you opinion that the likes of Eusebio are rated higher than van Basten. (Was Eusebio a genuine centre forward at all?) I don't think it's true though, not that I care much about it.
Who exactly are you speaking for ?
Am I reading this correctly ... Klose ?
See my previous post. He was one of the 2010 tournament's best players despite being surrounded by a very ordinary team and a naive coach.
Messi may well help Argentina to a WC or a CA yet but if he doesn't but still continues to dominate the league he plays in domestically and on the European club stage then that'll do just fine for me.
Don't agree with that part necessarily. The standard of the opposition who you score your goals against, cannot be an issue as it cannot be accurately measured who constitutes good and who doesn't.
The general standard of the spanish league is not as high as the PL, especially a couple of years ago when they were 4 top teams in england doing well in the CL every year. But it does not take away from C. Ronaldo's or Messi's goalscoring credibility. Should it then not be the same with Klose?
He has played the same standard of opposition as all the other striker's at Wc's and over his time has amassed a goal tally second only to Ronaldo. He is obviously not regarded as one of the all time great players, off the back of his record, but his credentials as a regular goalscorer on the biggest stage is unquestionable surely. He has scored those goals, and only one man has ever scored more.
I agree. Unlike Best and Di Stefano who never got the chance, Messi has had a chance and will have more chances to inspire what is already an extremely talented Argentina team. Argentina's team on paper is as good as anybody's. there is no reason why he should be unable to show why he is the best in the world by some margin, within a team like that, at a WC.
If he was Scottish i would let him off, but he isn't and that team with him at the forefront should be able to produce at least one really good WC showing, that would put all these questions to bed.
Both, of course. Funny thing is Maradona is/was widely derided for his '82 form yet it was better than we've seen from Messi so far in a WC, you'd never believe it from the way people get so arsey about a bit of harmless criticism about his international form though. Messi's capable of so much more in an Argentina shirt.
So the Argentina team was ordinary eh? Messi, Tevez, Aguero, Di Maria, Higuain, Mascherano, Pastore, Zanetti, Milito, Veron. Yeah feck knows how they even won a game with that much ordinariness in the side. What does that make england by the way?
Well good for you. At least you will be happier than Messi then, because im sure he would like a bit more international success than he has enjoyed so far. tbh i don't think with what is by his side, it is expecting too much for him to produce a WC showing better than he has so far, even though bizarrely you seem to think he produced something memorable.
whatever you remember him producing at the WC, if it were anywhere near his club form, we would not be discussing it really would we? He has set the incredible standards by which he is constantly judged, if he only performs in the comfort of a Barcelona shirt and not for his country on the biggest stage, then that is what he will be remembered for.
In the 2006WC he was the only one making any real difference for Argentina, and Pekerman paid for it spectacularly ... one of those if only moments for the country.
In the 2007CA he was the best player by far ... the only reason they lost that final was because the referee allowed Brazil to rotationally kick them off the field - they targeted Riquelme and Messi & it worked.
At the 2010WC he did everything but score ... blocks on the line, hitting the post, etc.
At the 2011CA I don't remember ... most of the tourney was shite.
In the 2007CA he was the best player by far ... the only reason they lost that final was because the referee allowed Brazil to rotationally kick them off the field - they targeted Riquelme and Messi & it worked.
At the 2010WC he did everything but score ... blocks on the line, hitting the post, etc.
At the 2011CA I don't remember ... most of the tourney was shite.
Very true, i cannot see why it is so difficult for so many people to accept that when you are as talented as him, and far and away the best player in the world, you are then expected to reproduce that form on the biggest stage.
It baffles me when all before him have had to perform there to cement their places, why just because the CL is now such a popular club tournament, should that somehow allow Messi a bye from having to produce the goods when the eyes of the world are all watching at a WC finals?
So the Argentina team was ordinary eh? Messi, Tevez, Aguero, Di Maria, Higuain, Mascherano, Pastore, Zanetti, Milito, Veron. Yeah feck knows how they even won a game with that much ordinariness in the side. What does that make england by the way?
Well good for you. At least you will be happier than Messi then, because im sure he would like a bit more international success than he has enjoyed so far. tbh i don't think with what is by his side, it is expecting too much for him to produce a WC showing better than he has so far, even though bizarrely you seem to think he produced something memorable.
whatever you remember him producing at the WC, if it were anywhere near his club form, we would not be discussing it really would we? He has set the incredible standards by which he is constantly judged, if he only performs in the comfort of a Barcelona shirt and not for his country on the biggest stage, then that is what he will be remembered for.
err..firstly, 4 forwards don't make a team if you don't have a midfield (literally) in your biggest game against the germans and your defence is pants. You don't force 4 forwards into a team just because they are class.
Secondly, Zanetti was not in WC2010, Milito never played any important game apart from the dead rubber game against greece. Veron was on the subs bench in their most important match against germany. And Di maria was playing as a central midfielder. You basically just proved his point.
Secondly, Zanetti was not in WC2010, Milito never played any important game apart from the dead rubber game against greece. Veron was on the subs bench in their most important match against germany. And Di maria was playing as a central midfielder. You basically just proved his point.
Well there's the problem really, there is so little coverage or interest in the CA, compared to the EC, that players outside of Europe only really get the WC to perform. however you try to claim how great he has been for Argentina, the fact you are having to convince people of it, tells its own story.
We all watched the tournament and while Messi was far from shit, he looked a shadow of his Barca self, and failed to perform against Germany when his team were getting beat. He wasn't on his own admittedly, but as the BPITW, there are expectations on him to make the difference as he does so often for Barca, he failed to do so im afraid MP, and all your stats will not change that.
2010 WC loss to Germany
Romero
Otamendi
Demichelis
Burdisso
Heinze
Rodriguez
Masherano
Di Maria
Messi
Higuain
Tevez
2011 CA loss to Uruguay
Romero
Zabaleta
Milito
Burdisso
Zanetti
Gago
Masherano
Di Maria
Messi
Higuain
Aguero
Defence and midfield were shockingly average - porous and without creativity.
Up front they undoubtedly have the potential as they're all world class or very near on their day but unfortunately they never worked collectively as a group to take advantage of their superior talents up front. The strategy was give it to Messi and hope for the best ... very easy for teams to figure out especially in today's age of defence first-sit back and hit on the break.
Romero
Otamendi
Demichelis
Burdisso
Heinze
Rodriguez
Masherano
Di Maria
Messi
Higuain
Tevez
2011 CA loss to Uruguay
Romero
Zabaleta
Milito
Burdisso
Zanetti
Gago
Masherano
Di Maria
Messi
Higuain
Aguero
Defence and midfield were shockingly average - porous and without creativity.
Up front they undoubtedly have the potential as they're all world class or very near on their day but unfortunately they never worked collectively as a group to take advantage of their superior talents up front. The strategy was give it to Messi and hope for the best ... very easy for teams to figure out especially in today's age of defence first-sit back and hit on the break.
Does anyone else here think that Messi should be seriously regretting to playing for Spain? If he did, perhaps there wouldn't be any argument even at this stage...
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