What's more mental is that the 192 goals have come in 280 odd appearances.
If you count assists he has 280 goals+assists in 280 appearances.
If you count assists he has 280 goals+assists in 280 appearances.
Lionel Messi
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That's some great assist counting there Ole
unfeckingbelievable. amazing player.
Funniest thing is I think the goals are just the creme of the crop.
I appreciate other aspects of his game more.
He's come a very long way though:
If it wasn't for long term injuries his rise to the top probably would have happened earlier.
I appreciate other aspects of his game more.
He's come a very long way though:
If it wasn't for long term injuries his rise to the top probably would have happened earlier.
He already has 10 assists this season along with the 12 goals. 
In 9 appearances no less.
In 9 appearances no less.
He already has 10 assists this season along with the 12 goals.
In 9 appearances no less.
Holy fuk! That's also counting Super Cup right? Doesn't matter though. 8 goals and 5 assists in 5 games. One of them as a sub.
Cesc has 4 goals and 4 assists. Not bad as well.
He can smell Madrid's fear.
There was also an issue with getting him in the squad a young age due to restrictions on numbers of foreign players.
Unless something tragic happens, he is on his way to be the best ever.
There are consistent players and there is Messi
There are consistent players and there is Messi
Not only does he smell it, he feeds on it.
He's not even 25 yet. Unreal. Feels like he's been around for ages, much like Rooney and Ronaldo.
The best ever player never to perform for his national side he almost certainly already is.
You're a sad sad man.
When you say 'perform' do you mean scoring goals cal? ?, if so you have a point because Messi has put in plenty of unreal performances in an Argentina shirt despite not finding the net.
Scoring a goal is what some players need to do to have a good match rating despite being called 'complete'.
Most of the time all that's missing from Messi in an argie strip finding the net. He still gets man of the match ratings for his efforts.
He came very close to breaking his jinx vs Nigeria the other week:
Scoring a goal is what some players need to do to have a good match rating despite being called 'complete'.
Most of the time all that's missing from Messi in an argie strip finding the net. He still gets man of the match ratings for his efforts.
He came very close to breaking his jinx vs Nigeria the other week:
Or a troll that simply won't give it up. I can respect a man who doesn't know when he's beat even when he's completely obliterated at this point.
Please do elaborate on how it's never his fault that Argentina never get anywhere, how it's always the managers, the useless team mates & everyone else who stop him from winning everything.
No, when I say perform, I mean leading his country to a stage of the WC that exceeds expectation for his country, QF exit after QF exit is certainly what you'd expect of Argentina regardless if they had such an amazing player playing for them.
Not to take anything away from Messi, but how would Ronaldo be doing for Barca today?
And Messi at Real?
I still think Barca would have the edge if you swapped players. Real simply don't have the Xavi-Iniesta-whomever trio to run the midfield.
And Messi at Real?
I still think Barca would have the edge if you swapped players. Real simply don't have the Xavi-Iniesta-whomever trio to run the midfield.
Ronaldo will score even more at Barca and they'd still win everything (even if slightly less pleasing on the eye).
Messi won't get on with Jose.
Ronaldo would be unreal for Barca, although I don't think he truly fits in with their style of play.
They're more subtle, while Real is more direct.
He'll have to learn to become a good passer, work on his footballing brain, be less selfish and work really hard off the ball.
His speed is something they could really use though. He will most certainly get them goals but he recieves alot more tap ins/assits from Di Maria/Ozil than his nemisis does from Xavinesta who in total only contributed to 7 of Messi's 53 goals last year.
So it's not as obvious as it seems.
If Messi was to join Real, I'm positive he would add to the team's posssession and balance in midfield, because he knows how to keep the ball. He'll most certainly have alot of fun vs his old Barca team mates that's for sure.
There was one key question asked off the back of the CL clasico last year. It was 'would Jose line up so defensively if he had Messi in his side?' it's one to ponder on, but there's no chance the Argentine would do a Figo/Laudrup.
Messi has also proved in the past he can still feck Real when his Barca side are up against it.
Ologuer was sent off for Barca in this one near the end of the first half:
They're more subtle, while Real is more direct.
He'll have to learn to become a good passer, work on his footballing brain, be less selfish and work really hard off the ball.
His speed is something they could really use though. He will most certainly get them goals but he recieves alot more tap ins/assits from Di Maria/Ozil than his nemisis does from Xavinesta who in total only contributed to 7 of Messi's 53 goals last year.
So it's not as obvious as it seems.
If Messi was to join Real, I'm positive he would add to the team's posssession and balance in midfield, because he knows how to keep the ball. He'll most certainly have alot of fun vs his old Barca team mates that's for sure.
There was one key question asked off the back of the CL clasico last year. It was 'would Jose line up so defensively if he had Messi in his side?' it's one to ponder on, but there's no chance the Argentine would do a Figo/Laudrup.
Messi has also proved in the past he can still feck Real when his Barca side are up against it.
Ologuer was sent off for Barca in this one near the end of the first half:
Not that simple I don't think. For starters, Ronaldo will have to drastically reduce the amount of shots he takes. He shoots almost twice as much as Messi does, and even then he doesn't score as much. At barca he wouldn't get that luxury and I suspect that it would affect his goal scoring because taking a lot of shots is a huge part of his game.
Perhaps more importantly, he will also have to improve his passing, and be as creative as messi to be close to the impact messi has for barca. Messi individually is a more creative player and this would show at barca because for all their pretty sideways passing, the incisive creative final pass for pedro and co is usually given by Messi. Ironically, IMO I feel Messi's impact on his team (goals aside) is more evident for the argies where he is clearly playing in an inferior midfield, but his passing, chances created e.t.c is pretty much how it is at Barca.
A quick check shows he has more assists than goals for argentina. 17 goals and 20 assists in 61 games, for comparison Zidane has only 3 more assists in over 50 more games for France. Now he is obviously not as infuential as zidane was for france over his career but I think it gives an indication of how productive Messi is even if he isn't scoring. It is this part of the game I feel ronaldo will come short at if he plays in the current barca team, all hypothetical of course.
Perhaps more importantly, he will also have to improve his passing, and be as creative as messi to be close to the impact messi has for barca. Messi individually is a more creative player and this would show at barca because for all their pretty sideways passing, the incisive creative final pass for pedro and co is usually given by Messi. Ironically, IMO I feel Messi's impact on his team (goals aside) is more evident for the argies where he is clearly playing in an inferior midfield, but his passing, chances created e.t.c is pretty much how it is at Barca.
A quick check shows he has more assists than goals for argentina. 17 goals and 20 assists in 61 games, for comparison Zidane has only 3 more assists in over 50 more games for France. Now he is obviously not as infuential as zidane was for france over his career but I think it gives an indication of how productive Messi is even if he isn't scoring. It is this part of the game I feel ronaldo will come short at if he plays in the current barca team, all hypothetical of course.
Must we make this thread Ronaldo Vs Messi?
But I'll bite. Messi is key to the way Barca play.
Not sure Ronaldo could play the 'false 9' the way Messi does. He'd have to drop deep, win the ball, play simple passes and create from the middle. I'm not sure those are his strengths.
He's better suited to being the wide forward. He's a good crosser, can beat his man, can cut inside and shoot etc. etc.
Funnily I think Messi could play Ronaldo's role at Real much easier than Ronaldo could play Messi's role at Barca. After all Messi started as a wide forward.
Right, so as I've seen Maradona play and been alive to see and hear first hand as to the value of Pele's exploits, I'm in an un bias position to make a judgement.
Pele > Maradona > Messi
World Cups are huge. Win one first. Pele won three world cups by the time Messi will again attempt to win his first (2014). Maradona single handedly(no pun) led Argentina to glory. It's all well and good playing in one of the greatest club sides of all time with Xavi, Iniesta and David Villa, along with now Fabregas and a defence of Puyol and Pique - do it with your national team. They're still great players, that set-up has some marvellous talent. What? It's not Xavi and Iniesta?
Oh fair enough. Excused.
Not.
Pele > Maradona > Messi
World Cups are huge. Win one first. Pele won three world cups by the time Messi will again attempt to win his first (2014). Maradona single handedly(no pun) led Argentina to glory. It's all well and good playing in one of the greatest club sides of all time with Xavi, Iniesta and David Villa, along with now Fabregas and a defence of Puyol and Pique - do it with your national team. They're still great players, that set-up has some marvellous talent. What? It's not Xavi and Iniesta?
Oh fair enough. Excused.
Not.
Argentina lost 4-0 to Germany because of Messi, not because Maradona got his tactics wrong, obviously..
Well, he did score more than Messi. But other than that your hypothesis is plausible.
"Players lose you games, not tactics. There's so much crap talked about tactics by people who barely know how to win at dominoes."
- Brian Clough
I think we need a new thread. This one seems to be stuck 2 page behind.
Well he'll never catch Pele's 3 world cups, that's for damn sure.
Pele also played in some world beating Brazil sides. The 62 world cup showed that they could win the tourny without him. Garrincha stealing the show in the end.
It's good to see someone actually mentioning the likes of Villa, Pique, Puyol when speaking about Messi's success with Barca. His critics usually take the lazy apporach of just mentioning Xavietsa.
Pele also played in some world beating Brazil sides. The 62 world cup showed that they could win the tourny without him. Garrincha stealing the show in the end.
It's good to see someone actually mentioning the likes of Villa, Pique, Puyol when speaking about Messi's success with Barca. His critics usually take the lazy apporach of just mentioning Xavietsa.
Xavi will likely be winding down in a couple of years, Iniesta a few years after...if Messi doesn't win a World Cup but goes on to show that he's still near-unstoppable at club level without Xaviesta, will that be enough? Is it impossible for him to be called the best player ever if he doesn't win a World Cup?
I reckon if he didn't win a World Cup in his entire career some people would say Zidane's a better player, and I think that's mental.
I reckon if he didn't win a World Cup in his entire career some people would say Zidane's a better player, and I think that's mental.
Would you please tell me why it's always the manger's fault for England then? For instance, Capello?? I know England lost 4-1 to Germany, but couldn't Rooney be the reason for that, and not Capello? (Only Rooney, not the rest of the team!)
Bit silly since Ronaldo probably isn't even no.2 these days.
Because the English press are quite frankly, retarded. England's problem spawns from the grass roots upwards.
That then puts him in the next bracket of players, underneath Pele and Maradona, somewhere above Zidane though. Club football is a lot, the World Cup is the pinnacle. It is impossible to call a player the best of all time if he has 0 World Cups next to his name (subject to him playing for a national team that is capable of winning the World Cup, which in Messi's case is undoubted).
The whole team is brilliant, it'd be unfair to leave out the others.
Garrincha did step up, yes, point taken but none the less Pele did step up when required on the grandest stage and has 3 World Cups to his name.
Its really a weird argument. I can probably list a number of great players who haven't won the world cup yet they are still considered amongst the greatest of all time.
I reckon the whole WC thing is just a final desperate thread being clung onto by certain posters. I have no clue why.
Garrincha did more than step up, Garriincha brought the samba style and flair to the world.
It wouldn't be for some people. There's a list of criteria. First it was that he couldn't score against English teams. Then it was he couldn't score in England. It was also said he couldn't score a header with a top hat on before the CL Final in 09
Then there's the xaviesta thing, which is such a lazy argument I don't really take seriously. It wouldn't inevitably be debunked when those too ease out of the side.
Each one will be ticked off the Argentine's list, but if he doesn't win the world cup it will always be mentioned in the best player ever debates.
If Messi doesn't win the world cup but keeps this up, I believe when he retires it would possibly look like 55% in favour of Maradona as the best and 45% in favour of Messi.
No.
You can be "one of the greatest players of all time", yes, if you show brilliant form for your club and as a poster above said are seen to be "unstoppable."
However, you can not be the single undisputed best player of all time, nor have a claim if you have played for a national team well and truly capable of winning the Copa Mundial and not gone on and done it.
There is nothing to be "clung too". I have no bias to any player being discussed here, this is just an opinion from someone who is in a position to comment on the trio of Pele, Maradona and Messi and their exploits.
Who is?
It wouldn't be for some people. There's a list of criteria. First it was that he couldn't score against English teams. Then it was he couldn't score in England. It was also said he couldn't score a header with a top hat on before the CL Final in 09
Then there's the xaviesta thing, which is such a lazy argument I don't really take seriously. It wouldn't inevitably be debunked when those too ease out of the side.
Each one will be ticked off the Argentine's list, but if he doesn't win the world cup it will always be mentioned in the best player ever debates.
If Messi doesn't win the world cup but keeps this up, I believe when he retires it would possibly look like 55% in favour of Maradona as the best and 45% in favour of Messi.
This too is another problem. Most people who saw Pele play are now very, very old, or dead.
Having seen all three, for me it will always be Pele > Maradona - Messi has the potential to break into that top two, but right now he sits at a distant third.
Alex Song, obviously.
Leaving aside the fact that Argentina were not any where near capable of winning the world cup that's just bollocks. International football isn't the highest standard of the game any more (and hasn't been for a long time).
He's just one of the tier below Messi - Xavi, Fabregas, Rooney et al.
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