If he hadn't cut his career short he would have been at the 1982 event. No question. It was sad what happened in hindsight. But he did also get his or momments at international level though. His nutmegging of Cruyff is a good example.
Lionel Messi
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Not at any point in his Real career did they truly embrace him.
I do think apart of it was his lack of work rate.
I also think a large part of it was to do with the Raulistas, sad that the number 7 was not going to be the main forward anymore.
I remember one time at the bernabeu he ran near the fans and one lad was waving a Raul shirt in anger at him.
He did say before Madrid played Arsenal at home that the Real fans never treated him well but I could never understand the timing of it.
If I remember clearly he then proceeded to give the ball away for Henry to score his wondergoal.
Sigh Ronaldo
For me I will know how great Messi can be at next world cup. When he will be about 25. The age Maradona proved he was the next best thing since Pele.
Before him Ronaldinho fell of the wagon, whilst Ronaldo of Brazil was hampered by injury. Hopefully Messi wont suffer their fate. It would be nice for someone to actually catch up to Pele and Maradona in our life time.
Before him Ronaldinho fell of the wagon, whilst Ronaldo of Brazil was hampered by injury. Hopefully Messi wont suffer their fate. It would be nice for someone to actually catch up to Pele and Maradona in our life time.
Imagine where Big Duncan could have been on this list. Would have probably been the one to lift the world cup in 68 too.
Ok I'll stop diverting.
Ok I'll stop diverting.
Yep. Read a lot about that. Should see it on youtube.
What ability Best had.
Agree, but I'd rather it be a United player personally
I'm not fond of any non United player that much these days. Zidane was the last one.
Then again fans in Spain come across as ridiculously fickle. It's like they're watching theatre expecting some sort of show.
It would be hard to argue that Ronaldo didn't perform at a WC though, wouldn't it? Highest scorer in WC history, those 2 goals in the WC final against Germany...
With hindsight, I think people will see Ronaldo's great performances in context and realise he was, despite the injuries, just as good as anything else we've seen.
I certainly rate him far higher than Messi and I'll frankly be stunned if Messi can have the impact even Ronaldo had at a WC - it's getting harder and harder to dominate these tournaments, which puts Ronaldo's efforts in context. I don't see Messi being able to impose himself on teams without his Barca teammates around him - in that context, he's nowhere near Zidane or Ronaldo, forget Pele or Maradona.
Ronaldo surely has to go down as one of the greatest world cup players ever. You can fault him at the WC. Yes, he could have won that final against France for them and made history there and then. But after that almost WC he went and did the business till the end in the next one as a goalscorer.
Yep
they don't really seem to push the team on when their playing shite, poorly, that's when it's likely to turn to whistles
they sit there waiting to be impressed and clap if they are.
The whole thing was calculated. In Argentina, this technique is known I think as the 'sombero'
Messi clearly anticipated the loop of the chip to land on his foot to volley.
You don't get happy accidents at this level, and even if it was, it only attests to Messi's ability to recover a lost cause.
It was too brilliant to be put down to that though.
Definitely. I was only saying injury stopped Ronaldo reaching the heights of Mardona and Pele when he fully matured. For me Ronaldo's world cup record is excellent despite his injuries. Had he not been injured so often he'd probably have surpassed everyone ever to have played the game.
I agree fully.
spain scored 8 goals and won the world cup
i think they meeded messi in order to score more goals
and we are talking about a team that has Villa, Torres and Silva
He's a fecking freak.
another thing, if playing with Xavi and Iniesta makes things so easy to messi
why villa hasnt scored as many goals as him?
and why Henry and ibrahimovic failed?
why villa hasnt scored as many goals as him?
and why Henry and ibrahimovic failed?
Surprised its even being questioned, clearly had full control of his actions, was a wonderful finish
What a player. I think the Rubberman makes a decent point about the next World Cup though, that should be his tournament to shine in. I thought he did ok last tournament considering, but we're expecting him to be the star. Barring illness or injury I can't see him not being
It's just biterness really, the fact Messi is the stand out performer in such a talented sqaud is testimony to his ability.
Messi is underrated.
Villa isnt as good as him obviously. Toa sk the is the equivalent of asking why a maths proffessor keeps getting 100/100 in a high school exam, whilst besting the best maths student in highs school in the process.
But did they fail really? Henry in his first year was their top scorer. In his second he was key to their treble win. Zlatan too scored goals. It's not like his replacement has surpassed him so dreadfully for him to be labelled a failure.
Yeah but I said 'control games'. Spain control games in the exact same way. They clearly don't need Messi to control games. However, I'm not sure about this, but I think this WC Spain actually underperformed didn't they? Before it weren't they scoring a lot more too?
Without A doubt. Just compare their Euro triumph to the world cup win.
There you go. No lacking in controlling games or end product it would seam.
Clearly on the way compared to having a chance of becoming, I see you're retracting...
The death of Torres' form was a major factor.
I am not retracting.
Your response with a laughing smiley meant you think what I am talking is completely rubbish which its clearly not.
Hence I asked whether you think he has no chance.
Never once said he's the best ever. Never said anything you claim, you're a liar, i've exposed you before and it's easily done again. My post wasn't intended to throw fuel on the fire, if anything it was to show that with the sujectivity that comes with "player rating" someone can come up with a valid enough claim for someone to be great or not be so great. It's entirely up to the person and which way they want to swing it.
You use the international yardstick to bring modern players down and bring past generations up. Fair fecks, it's a valid enough point but personally i dont entirely buy it. Club football in alot of ways surpasses international football. You also can't judge a player like Messi so soon when it comes to his international exploits. (23 years old, next world up he'll be 25/26, same age as Maradona was when he won his)
Another flaw would be that you do get outstanding international sides. You couldnt possibly rate Pele evenly based on how good the brazil side he played in was.
I'm not justifying or unjustifying anything here. I don't really understand your stance and quickness to decide someone is saying something they arent. It's like you want to believe what you think i think or think i say is the truth...
For the record i never said Messi is the best ever, he's the best now with potential to go down in history as the greatest ever. He'll no doubt go down as a legend of the game at the very least.
Certainly could have carried on, but Zidane was well past his best from 2004 onwards. That he managed to recapture his form during the knockout stages of the World Cup allowed him to retire at a fitting stage.
Nah, Messi dinked it over as part of his dribble - any leaning away was part of getting out of the road of Almunia's challenge and ensuring he'd still be able to finish on his left foot.
Aye. While I agree that Spain were more entertaining in Euro 2008, I think the contrast can be overplayed and had Torres not been so staggeringly inept in front of goal, Spain would have netted another handful of goals and there'd be far less talk of how disappointing they were.
I haven't claimed you said anything. Rather I've said you jumped into the middle of an argument in which one side was saying it firstly, that it is wrong to declare Messi the best ever aged only 23, to claim ''he has already surpassed Maradona'' when he hasn't even done much of real significance in international football, and secondly, that club football through the years has proven a comfort zone of legends and international football levels the playing field and makes it easier to judge great players against each other.
You jumped in on the opposite side of that argument, claiming that its all subjective, meaning you mos probably agree with those who were against the above argument, on top of insinuating that the folks on the other side were bringing up criterion merely to discredit Messi.
I dare you to prove I'm lying. Be my guest.
When you fail be a man and own up to it. Without offering up a single excuse.
If that was actually your intention, which I highly doubt it was, you failed miserably at it. That much is clear. Because no amount of subjective talk will make bullshit make a sense. You cannot bullshit the records of a great player, no matter how hard you try. You would be hard pressed to make a valid enough claim to do it.
No way. I've used it on every footballing great in existence. Players like Cruyff didn't become legends just because of club football. Especially when they didn't play for nations like Northern Ireland.
The only great player around who's club football career is the biggest basis for his greatness is Di Stefano. No one else.
It never has and never will.
All besides the point. We are being asked to accept views like a 23 year old Messi, who has done feck all in the international game, has right now surpassed Maradona and is now the greatest ever all in the name of subjectivity. feck that shit.
That Brazil team he was a part of achieved nothing of note after Pele retired from it. Even when he was missing earlier on they under performed. That argument is weak at best. You are talking of a man who starred in a classy team aged just 17.
Then what are you actually doing exactly?
Apart from first accusing me and others of trying to discredit Messi and now calling me a liar? I'd really like to know?
This is a common trend regarding both Messi and Barcelona. If you do not bow down to the claim that they are greatest player and club team ever respectively then you must have some irrational hate for either, which is rather bizarre.
In my opinion Messi is not the best player I've ever seen, let alone ever, and Barca are not the best ever team yet. Both have time to prove themselves, they may, they may not. It doesn't mean people like me don't rate both. He is obviously a ridiculously good footballer and they are a fantastic team.
Agreed. I'm personally sick and tired of being told how I'm trying to discredit Messi, am a Messi hater and ''its all just subjective'' when I rubbish hyperbolic claims about him.
Chief you've been a whats what of rubbish in this thread, from the start where you discredited messi and were of the opinion Ronaldo would be/was/would always be the better player.
To your points about Messi being unable to get better as a player, to putting words in others mouths.
You credit messi all well and good but your last throw of the dice is the international football argument which is fine, you have your last stance about something.
If Maradona never won the world cup, if his side fell just short with him being the stand out of the tournament do you think he'd still be rated the greatest of all time? That's a serious question, i'm interested. Personally i'd expect he would but i imagine you wont think so.
Typical smoke and mirrors bullshit from you.
First, I have not at any point discredited Messi. I don't need to. I'm not anti him the way the likes of you are anti this or that player. Find a better accusation to level at me.
Second, Messi also met all the criteria I set out way back at the start of this thread, for him to meet to prove he was better than Ronaldo. I pointed that out with out fear or favour when he acheived it. Trust you to have missed it.
Third, my point about international football has feck all to do with Messi. For I've repeatedly used it against Cristiano Ronaldo too, any other modern player considered a great and any previous player considered a football legend.
Fourth, ''to putting words in others mouths.''
. Talk of the pot calling the kettle black. As I said earlier. I dare you to prove I'm lying Frankly Vulgar. Do it again like you said you could. You said it was piss easy. Don't try to start up something else to avoid doing that. Unless you prefer being a coward.
He obviously wouldn't. That should be obvious.
Typical smoke and mirrors bullshit from you.
First, I have not at any point discredited Messi. I don't need to. I'm not anti him the way the likes of you are anti this or that player. Find a better accusation to level at me.
Second, Messi also met all the criteria I set out way back at the start of this thread, for him to meet to prove he was better than Ronaldo. I pointed that out with out fear or favour when he acheived it. Trust you to have missed it.
Third, my point about international football has feck all to do with Messi. For I've repeatedly used it against Cristiano Ronaldo too.
Fourth, ''to putting words in others mouths.''
As I said earlier. I dare you to prove I'm lying Frankly Vulgar. Do it again like you said you could. You said it was piss easy. Don't try to start up something else to avoid doing that. Unless you prefer being a coward.
He obviously wouldn't. That should be obvious.
Fine i'll take your word, you aren't anti anything.
You set him Cal criteria, the be all and end all of productivity. I said from the start he was a better footballer. The fact he has to prove it without a shadow of a doubt to people always surprises me. Luckily i didn't forsee Messi becoming the goal scorer he is, so for people who care about nothing but the end in football even they cant argue.
You pointed out how unlikely Messi becoming better was, i thought he was better at the time and would go onto be even better. In fairness Ronaldo has gotten better too and i never thought he'd get better than his Manchester United form. Which is still debatable but for the goal whores it isnt.
Putting words in others mouths? i might give an opinion on what one might think but i don't go as far to wrongly quote them as you have done. I proved you lied already in this very thread, Kouroux called you out already for what you said, i don't need to prove you have some bad habits, it's plain as day for anyone to see if they pay attention to what's actually said rather than nodding along.
Like i've maintained, Messi is on his way, i will reserve my final judgements for when he's done it all. If he constantly fails (ie argentina fail) then he'll never earn the title of greatest ever. I for one have maintained that i think Argentina will win the world cup but then i'm sure detractors will mention that Maradona played with 10 idiots whilst Messi was surrounded by class.
Like i said and my point was, you play in the team you are in and you can only do your best for that team. That Maradona was at Napoli and a supposedly lesser international side makes his achievments unachievable. There is always an obstacle.
I'm not impressed. I'm still waiting for you to prove that am a liar once again. I'm certianly not letting this go.
In your dreams kid. I set him valid criteria that he had to meet to surpass the player who was clearly the best in the world at the time. What criteria did you want me to use? Dribbling skills?
Correction. Had to prove. Not has.
Besides, it's no surprise though that you didn't think Messi needed to prove anything back at the start of the 2008/2009 season. The time when this thread started. It is because you are under the illusion everyone sees the world in the blinkered fashion you and cal do.
You've just accused me of saying that you are the one who said Messi had surpassed Maradona when I most certainly did not. You've claimed you can prove it easily too. I'm still waiting for the proof. You don't need to wrongly quote someone to put words in their mouth.
So? You have just accused me of fresh lies and insisted you could prove it too. Prove you are a man of your word. Or just prove the you are indeed offside.
He most certainly didn't. You think he did because it would back up your ridiculous claims since you returned to the discussion going on in this thread.
On the contrary. You have prove what you say when you clam you can easily prove another poster is lying.
The only thing plain as day is that you are chickening out of getting egg on your face for saying something you couldn't back up.
The only obstacle left in front of Messi is that of conquering international football. Like all the football legends before him did. Plain and simple.
Fv talks in a strange language I don't understand.
Messi needs to succeed at the international level if he wants to sit with Maradona and Pele in football heaven
Else he will be regarded as one of the best and most talented players, like Georgie, Cruyff or Di Stefanno, but not as one of the Football Gods
simply because players that had the same habilities like him -maradona and pele- set the bar that high
Else he will be regarded as one of the best and most talented players, like Georgie, Cruyff or Di Stefanno, but not as one of the Football Gods
simply because players that had the same habilities like him -maradona and pele- set the bar that high
Chief vs FV multiquote battle is brilliant.
The language of love
Chief vs FV multiquote battle is brilliant.
can't be bothered to multiquote, i admire his patients in this regard. It's his argument winning tool. I don't even see it as an argument, just me talking and him frothing at the mouth.
something like that?
Your quotations were ill used, maybe you werent saying i said them, using them as an example maybe but you do have a habbit of using them. I don't need to prove you lied anyway. I just dont get your indignation at the accusation when you've been proven to do so before by me. Nobody cared then and they dont now.
Well said.
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