Some great players flounder in great teams.
It's not set in stone he would have broken all Barca records if he had Xavi and Iniesta, we will just never know.
Lionel Messi
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Some great players flounder in great teams.
It's not set in stone he would have broken all Barca records if he had Xavi and Iniesta, we will just never know.
The whole how to judge a player thing is so subjective. It can be manipulated in anyway one chooses to get their point across. It's all hot air.
In world football you rarely get a player as talented as Lionel Messi. Now lets have a little look at some great players. Actually think of all the players that have been truely great, the best in the world or just about at one stage or another. They have one factor in common. A factor that is for some reason a criticism of him. That his team is built to suit him, built around him.
Is it? Has it always been this way? Have Barcelona not played the same formation with minor changes in tactics for as long as i can remember? Even if the team is built around Messi is that any different from any other team? A team built around Ronaldo, around Cruyff, Maradonas napoli and national sides were built around him. Zidane got the same treatment.
It's a very ordinary and understandable thing that is being made out as a detractor. If you have the best player in the world, you will build a team to suit them. It's common sense.
Maradona didn't build the argentina team around Messi, he played 4 central defenders and looked to Di Maria to stretch teams on the break, that was basically his tactics. Regardless it's so subjective.
At 23 Messi can still do it all, i wont be all that surprised if he does or if he doesnt. If he's given credit or if he's not. I hardly post in here half as much as i used to, there is no need. Like preaching to the converted.
Argue about his all time status all you want, the lads 23. One thing is certain, there isn't a better player in the world. It isn't even debateable anymore. Messi wins.
In world football you rarely get a player as talented as Lionel Messi. Now lets have a little look at some great players. Actually think of all the players that have been truely great, the best in the world or just about at one stage or another. They have one factor in common. A factor that is for some reason a criticism of him. That his team is built to suit him, built around him.
Is it? Has it always been this way? Have Barcelona not played the same formation with minor changes in tactics for as long as i can remember? Even if the team is built around Messi is that any different from any other team? A team built around Ronaldo, around Cruyff, Maradonas napoli and national sides were built around him. Zidane got the same treatment.
It's a very ordinary and understandable thing that is being made out as a detractor. If you have the best player in the world, you will build a team to suit them. It's common sense.
Maradona didn't build the argentina team around Messi, he played 4 central defenders and looked to Di Maria to stretch teams on the break, that was basically his tactics. Regardless it's so subjective.
At 23 Messi can still do it all, i wont be all that surprised if he does or if he doesnt. If he's given credit or if he's not. I hardly post in here half as much as i used to, there is no need. Like preaching to the converted.
Argue about his all time status all you want, the lads 23. One thing is certain, there isn't a better player in the world. It isn't even debateable anymore. Messi wins.
Xavi and Iniesta can clearly control games for fun without the help of Messi as proven by Spain's success largely because they're better at than him. Both of last night's main openings for the first two goals for Barca came through Iniesta ripping through Arsenal's heart.
Iniesta doesn't control games, he's largely in and out in the majority of games.
Xavi definitely does.
True, but I think Iniesta playmaking does help him a huge deal. As we've seen the other day, you can shut out a playmaker if there is just one in a team. Because Barca have many it's literally impossible to stop playmaking. Take Inietsa, Messi and the others capable of playmaking to a lesser degree than Xavi and he'd be rendered far more ineffective because teams would be able to man mark him.
Now that statement is the definition of hot and bullshit.
Just like its common sense that any great player who has a team tailored to his abilities, that he plays in day in day out, for most of the year is in a comfort zone. What's truly hilarious is you think that fact is aimed at Messi. But its no surprise you missed the whole point.
All the legends of football had to earn their Spurs in international football because it was recognied what comfort zone club football ctually was for them There is really no legend of the game you can name who didn't have team tailored to get the best out of them at club level. And some of the have had undue advantages over everyone else as a result.
It's only at international level where these advantages where by and large constantly thrown out the window and we got to see the player as they really were.
That is why it is no coincidence that at international level both Messi and Ronaldo don't look thousands of miles ahead of everyone else as players.
Actually the team was built around Messi. That is why he was given the central play maker role. The only excuse he can be given was that assembled Argentine side just wasn't good enough overall.
It really isn't. That is the cop out people love to use when they have been called out on bullshit like prematurely claiming Messi has surpassed Maradona. Let him catch the Zidane's first. He is only 23.
All utterly and completely besides the point. Well done you....
He wins what? The hyperbole cup for being the ''best ever ever'' less than a quarter way through his career?
It really isn't Chief.You have this thing of judging others without doing much argumentation yourself.How is it exactly bullshit ?
1. The notion that you can manipulate judging a player in any way to get your point across. That isn't remotely possible. That facts always speak for themselves. If your point isn't valid it will never fly.
2. What is subjective about judging a player's performance through an entire season and a tournament? It's not like a debatble sample size is being used is it?
The simple truth is Frankly Vulgar is using every excuse in the book to make us accept as okay these claim that Messi is ''already the best ever'' and ''already surpassing Maradona'' at the tender age of 23.
The way he attempted to show that the ''team being built around a star makes it a comfort zone'' argument was being created for and only being used stricly to discredit Messi is good proof.
I honestly can't think of a response to the bolded part except.
So you think Messi has no chance of being the best ever?
Forget International football, "he has so many great players around him" or" he is playing in a comfort zone".
Look at the stats and even watch him play. That clearly is unbelievable.
And these stats are not like shot on target or who completed more passes or etc, they are fecking real stats.
If anyone looks at those stats and also watch him play, you have to admit he is clearly on the way to become the best ever.
Look at the stats and even watch him play. That clearly is unbelievable.
And these stats are not like shot on target or who completed more passes or etc, they are fecking real stats.
If anyone looks at those stats and also watch him play, you have to admit he is clearly on the way to become the best ever.
For those of you who think his first touch for his Arsenal goal was sublime... he fecked it up actually.
He was trying to chip the keeper and you could notice him start to peel away and celebrate but his chip went straight up but luckily fell back down for him to smash it in.
Cracking player nonetheless and well on his way to become one of the greats, if not the greatest.
He was trying to chip the keeper and you could notice him start to peel away and celebrate but his chip went straight up but luckily fell back down for him to smash it in.
Cracking player nonetheless and well on his way to become one of the greats, if not the greatest.
I don't think so, his eyes never left the ball, it was amazing. He moved to avoid the sliding Almunia.
I agree. If anything the ball went up rather than forward a little more than he anticipated but otherwise it was wholly intentional and a wholly incredible piece of skill.
That's what seals it for me
with regards to what they do on international stage, I ignore it and ask myself have I seen anybody better?
but I do understand why people say he needs to do it at the world cup.
No he didn't Chief.In spite of your hatred for FV, do not twist what he actually said.Sometimes you try to guess what people say way too hard.
Then explain this:
Frankly Vulgar said:
In the context of the topic that was being discussed. No one had criticised Messi for having a team built around him. All anyone said was that club football is a comfort zone for all great players. Messi and Ronaldo are just the lattest incarnation of one. What one Earth was he getting at? Especially when you add it to the first part of his post?
I don't hate him at all. Neither am I attempting to twist what he said. I'm just referring to it in the context of the discussion he jumped into. My only issue with him is I just don't get why he tends to get overly defensive about Messi.Koroux said:
He still has a long way to go regardless. He hasn't even surpassed Zidane and fat Ronaldo yet if we sift through their entire careers for him to even start being compared to Maradona.
And before we even talk of Maradona there are men like Cruyff, Best, Platini, Di Stefano....
People are just getting carried away. The lad is only 23. Is it so hard for some of you to wait for him to actually reach full maturity before you label him that way?
If he keeps playing like he does, yes, it extremely difficult.
There's no breaks or interals of poor form, I don't see what age has to do with it personally, if you're great, you're great.
Put it this way Chief, he's about win win his 3rd Balondor in a row, I doubt he's going to cough up a fourth so you can see why he gets the plaudits he does.
It really isn't. He has shown very little at international level compared to the likes of Zidane. Still he starts doing that he will remain firmly on the way to go category except in fanbois minds.
I don't have issue with his plaudits nor age. I have issue with hyperbole. He is no where near a Maradona. Plain and simple. All this talk that he has surpassed him is utter bullshit.
Let us just agree to disagree
especially on the first part.
As great as Zidane was, I really don't think at any single point in his career he was good as a lad who has 45 goals and 20 assists in March, but I can why you would think so.
Ronaldo's statistics are also ridiculous but he is not a patch on Zidane. Statistics are not everything.
I'm with the chief on this one, he's far less effective away from Barcelona, which speaks more about where he fits into that teams sytem, Maradonna was epic plain and simple, as was Pele and Garrincha. Didn't matter where they were, they were always brilliant.
I agree, but Cristiano doesn't dominate game like Zizou,Messi and Xavi.
As good as he is just doesn't have the footballing brain.
True, but I'm just saying statistics don't count for everything. You may think Messi is better, and I think Zidane was better, but even if it is the case in your mind surely it's not just because of the numbers. A playmaker like Scholes or Zidane is much more than the numbers (or even Xavi).
Ok
EXactly. Zidane never had a season like Ronaldo had in 2007 and 2008 at any stage of his career. But I don't think anyone believes Zidane is inferior to him.
But he dominates teams. Which is just as good a thing to do to b fair.
Exactly. To be in that bracket both Messi and Ronaldo have to do that.
Ask most players in world footballer if they'd like to score a champions league winning goal or a world cup winning goal and the answer would most definitely be the latter. No matter how much we love United and club fooball the world cup is simply bigger.
I agree, Zidane was an artist
One of my favourite players of all time
I could watch him all day, infact I used to just binge off Watching Zidane.
Do you think he retired too early? He wasn't consistent at Real but he could have gone to another club for sure.
I tell you right now, Zidane could have played for France in South Africa and STILL schooled fellow preofessionals.
No training required!
I for one, am not saying he is better than Maradona but what I am saying is he is on the way to become the best ever which is not too wrong.
What he has achieved already is phenomenal and hence we are comparing him with Maradona.
Zidane was jawdroppingly good. Still the best I've seen.
And I loved watching him at Real. He was the only reason I saw that team I think. I think he retired at the right time. Yes he ended it with a headbutt but his performance in that tournament deserves to go down as legendary. He was simply amazing, and that too at an age most footballers can barely perform at.
And I loved watching him at Real. He was the only reason I saw that team I think. I think he retired at the right time. Yes he ended it with a headbutt but his performance in that tournament deserves to go down as legendary. He was simply amazing, and that too at an age most footballers can barely perform at.
But that's not the point is it?
A player who is considered great does always perform on the world cup stage but well there are exceptions.
It about how good he is,not if he scored the wining goal in the world cup or not.
Yes the world cup is a big stage but their are a lot of other factors deciding how a player plays in the world cup because it is not a tournament that is repeated every year.
Anyways as a final say, I think if Messi continues like this, he will become the greatest ever player till he retires unless he has a Ronaldinho like fall.
TBH Ronaldinho is the most talented footballer I have ever seen if not the greatest.
TBH Ronaldinho is the most talented footballer I have ever seen if not the greatest.
Even better. Why should it happen every year? Why should a player get 15 chances at utter legendary status throughout his career? That's why there is such greatness attached to it, because you get a few chances and you have to grab it. Ultimate test of your bottle and even ability, given you usually (apart from in Spains case) have to perform in alien environments.
I didn't say he has to score in the WC final. But performing on the biggest stage is a must for a player to be hailed the greatest ever unless he's a George Best who never got the chance to. Messi will have chances to like Maradona did. Question is, can he inspire his team and be the star in a world cup winning team?
Haha,
same here pretty much same here.
I did love watching Roberto Carlos too though, he's one of my all times faves.
Ronaldo would let me down alot with his performances watching Real although he consistently scored wonder goals.
Ronaldo got lots of goals but they expected the best footballer in the world that he was a few years back and not the guy who was an outstanding finisher. Think the fans never quite warmed up to him.
I agree, from an individual stand point Messi doesn't have to prove anything to me, but a World Cup would only help cement his legend.
A part of me feels like he may never achieve it though, one of those things that just isn't meant to be.
I do think he's going to dominate the next world cup though playing in the final third with this new coach.
He was incredible vs Spain and Portugal in the Friendlies which is a good forecast, but that's all they are; friendlies.
No. He went out at the top. The best way to do it.
He can't be compared to a Maradona when he as not done as much in international football. Merely looking at his stats alone doesn't cut it.
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