Lionel Messi

[amolbhatia50k]

Are you talking about international football? It's pretty debateable that that's the biggest stage.

It's debatable whether it's (WC) the toughest stage/most exciting stage, but it's definitely the biggest stage i.e most important, most pressure, most prestigious, most watched etc.

For the record I hate international football. I prefer club football by a mile but the WC is the biggest stage.

Like in cricket, I prefer Test Cricket any day, but the 50 over WC is the biggest stage.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Are you talking about international football? It's pretty debateable that that's the biggest stage.

It isnt. Club football is built to cater to the whims and provide the best possible platform for great players to perform.

International football on the other hand is by and large a more level playing field. That is why the distance between Messi and others in it is not anywhere near as big as it is at club level.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Messi is definitely above Maradona. I mean, just look at how he dismantled Arsenal

Maradona used to dismantle at will probably the best defences ever assembled in his hey day in the Serie A. Without even playing for a traditional giant.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

It isnt. Club football is built to cater to the whims and provide the best possible platform for great players to perform.

International football on the other hand is by and large a more level playing field. That is why the distance between Messi and others in it is not anywhere near as big as it is at club level.

And isn't that the ultimate test of a player? To be able to strut your stuff outside your comfort zone where your team provides everything for you to the tee.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

And isn't that the ultimate test of a player? To be able to strut your stuff outside your comfort zone where your team provides everything for you to the tee.

Allegedly

 

[Boss]

It depends really on many factors,somebody like Klose can go a whole season scoring less than 3 goals or something like that and destroy the world cup with goals galore.

 

[Wonder Pigeon]

Here's a question: If Messi never wins a World Cup but does win a Copa America or two, would that be enough for him to be up there, higher than the likes of Zidane and Ronaldo?

 

[Boss]

Here's a question: If Messi never wins a World Cup but does win a Copa America or two, would that be enough for him to be up there, higher than the likes of Zidane and Ronaldo?

Maybe I shouldn't be answering, but for me he could retire now and I'll rate him higher.

 

[B20]

I rate Messi higher than Zidane and Ronaldo by now.

Not too sure about Maradona. Let's just say he is on course to surpass him. I'd like to see him improve more though.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

And isn't that the ultimate test of a player? To be able to strut your stuff outside your comfort zone where your team provides everything for you to the tee.

Tell that to Ryan Giggs.

I'm not sure he'd agree.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Tell that to Ryan Giggs.

I'm not sure he'd agree.

For separating all time greats who have had similar opportunities.

 

[mufcwarm92]

People call Messi a Playstation player. But that touch he did for the fist goal to lob Almunia and set himself up for the finish... You can't even do that on FIFA. I've never seen anything like it, this guy is something else.

 

[Boss]

People call Messi a Playstation player. But that touch he did for the fist goal to lob Almunia and set himself up for the finish... You can't even do that on FIFA. I've never seen anything like it, this guy is something else.

The goal he scores at 4:55 at 18 vs Panathinaikos, isn't it similar?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

For separating all time greats who have had similar opportunities.

That's impossible to define though. Was the Argentina side that Maradonna played in at exactly the same standard as the one Messi has been playing for?

If anything form while playing for an international team is the most misleading of all, because the standard of international football fluctuates wildly over time and from one nation to another.

Conversely, the very best players tend to end up playing for the very best club sides of their era. Which gives a much more even platform on which to judge their talent.

 

[KingEric7]

Depends what you mean by similar opportunities. That term needs a fair bit of looking into.


You can never have similar opportunities unless you are in the same national team. There are so many constituents to international success, and the propensity on here to make international success a necessary condition for being a great, or the greatest player, of all time is flawed. In fact, it's bizarre.

People say it is the measure of a player to see if he can perform in such conditions, but surely that could be flipped on its head in the sense that it could also be stated that it is perhaps the most inaccurate judge of a player's ability - being tossed into a team with players who you've played with few times in comparison to your club team mates, having players come and go all around you as new players emerge and old/flailing ones depart, having to immediately adapt to other tactics, roles and formations, etc...

Performing well internationally is a bonus in such a debate (it CAN be a judge of mentality and ability), but it is not something that can be held against a player, and this is simply because there are far too many factors here to begin attributing greatness (or lack of it), success, etc on an individual level.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

That's impossible to define though. Was the Argentina side that Maradonna played in at exactly the same standard as the one Messi has been playing for?

If anything form while playing for an international team is the most misleading of all, because the standard of international football fluctuates wildly over time and from one nation to another.

Conversely, the very best players tend to end up playing for the very best club sides of their era. Which gives a much more even platform on which to judge their talent.

To an extent I agree.

But I just think that if you are the very best in your sport, you have to perform and excel at the stage which has the most glory, pressure, scrutiny etc, basically the biggest stage. Given the correct circumstances of course.

And it's tougher at the WC because you're out of your comfort zone. And if anything it provides for better judgement because unlike club football which keeps changing, in it's format the world cup doesn't change much.

Messi should play in 4 world cups at least. With a team as Argentina he will have ample opportunities to produce performances worthy of the best player ever. From all accounts, Maradona did that. Lets see if he Messi can.

 

[Boss]

To an extent I agree.

But I just think that if you are the very best in your sport, you have to perform and excel at the stage which has the most glory, pressure, scrutiny etc, basically the biggest stage. Given the correct circumstances of course.

And it's tougher at the WC because you're out of your comfort zone. And if anything it provides for better judgement because unlike club football which keeps changing, in it's format the world cup doesn't change much.

Messi should play in 4 world cups at least. With a team as Argentina he will have ample opportunities to produce performances worthy of the best player ever. From all accounts, Maradona did that. Lets see if he Messi can.

Klose scored 3 league goals in 25 apps in world cup season.

At the world cup he scored 4 in only just 3 games. So this statement is simply speculative.

 

[KingEric7]

There's being out of your comfort zone, and then there's being in a completely different zone altogether. I think the difference, though we can only estimate, is underrated.

There's such a science to football now that I'm guessing there's an unbelievable difference, and that this is why many players struggle. There's also the media pressure when it comes to international competition, which is just so extraordinary that it isn't even reasonable.

The culmination of this is the inconsistency we see from scores of top class players each time an international tournament comes along. I'm guessing that, even though it was not my era, excelling internationally on an individual level was not as difficult. Surely there wasn't such an adaptation to be made, and that the pressure put on players from the media was not quite so ridiculous (mainly due to the widespread extent of the media not being so apparent).

The current media most likely has an unbelievable psychological impact on players (even the best ones) when it comes to performance

 

[amolbhatia50k]

There's being out of your comfort zone, and then there's being in a completely different zone altogether. I think the difference, though we can only estimate, is underrated.

There's such a science to football now that I'm guessing there's an unbelievable difference, and that this is why many players struggle. There's also the media pressure when it comes to international competition, which is just so extraordinary that it isn't even reasonable.

The culmination of this is the inconsistency we see from scores of top class players each time an international tournament comes along. I'm guessing that, even though it was not my era, excelling internationally on an individual level was not as difficult. Surely there wasn't such an adaptation to be made, and that the pressure put on players from the media was not quite so ridiculous (mainly due to the widespread extent of the media not being so apparent).

The current media most likely has an unbelievable psychological impact on players (even the best ones) when it comes to performance

It really isn't. That's what you get at the biggest events in sport. Dealing with it is greatness.

 

[VP]

To an extent I agree.

But I just think that if you are the very best in your sport, you have to perform and excel at the stage which has the most glory, pressure, scrutiny etc, basically the biggest stage. Given the correct circumstances of course.

Interesting, that definitely means Pointing > Tendulkar

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Interesting, that definitely means Pointing > Tendulkar

Similar circumstances my friend.

Tendulkar given the circumstances he faced dwarfs pointing and more

I think this direction should be avoided for the sake of EVERYONE!!

 

[KingEric7]

It really isn't. That's what you get at the biggest events in sport. Dealing with it is greatness.

Dealing with it is an indicator of greatness, not a sufficient or necessary constituent of it.

You've obviously got to perform well on the big stage, but I'm not sure why the insistence on international success remains just because Maradona had it.

I mean, the emphasis placed on international football by fans has already been lessened massively, yet we still harp on about it as if to suggest that it is the greatest determinant of a player's greatness (I know you didn't say that, just to clarify).

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

It depends really on many factors,somebody like Klose can go a whole season scoring less than 3 goals or something like that and destroy the world cup with goals galore.

Which proves our point even more. The playing field is way more level at international level. At club level it simply isn't.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Dealing with it is an indicator of greatness, not a sufficient or necessary constituent of it.

You've obviously got to perform well on the big stage, but I'm not sure why the insistence on international success remains just because Maradona had it.
....

It actually remains rather because every footballing great worth noting has had it. All the way down to Zidane. Best is the only exception because he cut his career short. You can't suddenly change criteria just because Messi is reaching unheard of levels at club level just to suit him.

 

[KingEric7]

Which proves our point even more. The playing field is way more level at international level. At club level it simply isn't.

Not necessarily.

The best example to put forward is that of the Spanish national team. That's not even close to being a level playing field - Xavi, Pedro, Villa, Busquets, Iniesta, Puyol, etc (I'm sure I've missed someone out) all come from the same team! They have a ridiculous advantage there, and that's before you even start talking about how bloody good they are!

You could say that they are an exception, but this sort of thing works universally at varying levels.

 

[Cold_Boy]

Any one who doubts Messi and his achievements and that he is clearly on the way to being the best ever is completely ignorant or hates him.

 

[KingEric7]

It actually remains rather because every footballing great worth noting has had it. All the way down to Zidane. Best is the only exception because he cut his career short. You can't suddenly change criteria just because Messi is reaching unheard of levels at club level just to suit him.

Messi has 10 years of playing for Argentina yet so he's exempt from this currently.

Either way, I'm not defending Messi directly; rather, I'm highlighting the problems with using international football as a factor of greatness, though great players are obviously more likely to do well on an individual basis for their nations.

For a young player (amazing that he's still so young), Messi is doing very well internationally.

That wasn't the point, though. I'm simply undermining the significance of it all.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Messi has 10 years of playing for Argentina yet so he's exempt from this currently.

He isn't. Not when people are claiming he has surpassed the likes of Maradona.

Either way, I'm not defending Messi directly; rather, I'm highlighting the problems with using international football as a factor of greatness, though great players are obviously more likely to do well on an individual basis for their nations.

Which is why its a better judge of who is truly the best around. I mean, what is fair about judging Messi in a Barca shirt with everyone else? Or a Ronaldo in a Real even? How is that a level playing field as some have claimed?

 

[Ronaldo No.9]

One good thing you could say about Messi is that he's got over his injury problems which seem to plague him alot when he first came through.

 

[KingEric7]

He isn't. Not when people are claiming he has surpassed the likes of Maradona.

I didn't say that, though.

Which is why its a better judge of who is truly the best around. I mean, what is fair about judging Messi in a Barca shirt with everyone else? Or a Ronaldo in a Real even? How is that a level playing field as some have claimed?

It's not, because it's also far more likely that great players will do better for their clubs. Basic stuff. Great players tend to play well.

It's a far better judge watching league and other club football, obviously. You can judge Messi on an individual basis over the space of hundreds of games, in a consistent environment. It's a bit like in a scientific experiment in school whereby, in order to find the best result to test the hypothesis, you do the experiment over and over again for accuracy.

There's just too much inconsistency to international football to draw a lot that is meaningful from it.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

It's not, because it's also far more likely that great players will do better for their clubs. Basic stuff. Great players tend to play well.

Rather great players tend to shine supernova bright whilst surrounded with other great players tailored to their needs. Which happens at almost every top club that has such a great player.

's a far better judge watching league and other club football, obviously. You can judge Messi on an individual basis over the space of hundreds of games, in a consistent environment. It's a bit like in a scientific experiment in school whereby, in order to find the best result to test the hypothesis, you do the experiment over and over again for accuracy.

I'm glad you decided to bring that up. At club level a Messi is allowed to always perform at optimum capacity, surrounded by optimum conditions without any control experiment in sight. International football is the perfect control experiment.

There's just too much inconsistency to international football to draw a lot that is meaningful from it.

International football is very consistent. It's the players who participate who are not because they are taken out of their comfort zones. Which is when we see how good they really are. As opposed to the hyperbolic level club football elevates some of them to.

 

[Cal?]

Any one who doubts Messi and his achievements and that he is clearly on the way to being the best ever is completely ignorant or hates him.

I honestly can't think of a response to the bolded part except .

 

[mufcwarm92]

Just watched his 47 goals from last season. His range of finishing is broad, instinctive and just brilliant. In an increasinly physical game, it's been great to see a little guy like Messi take the footballing scene by storm.

He's a frighteningly good player.

 

[Cal?]

Just watched his 47 goals from last season. His range of finishing is broad, instinctive and just brilliant. In an increasinly physical game, it's been great to see a little guy like Messi take the footballing scene by storm.

He's a frighteningly good player.

No doubt at all about that, but some people claiming he's definitely ahead of Maradona is just ridiculous.

 

[Marcosdeto]

No doubt at all about that, but some people claiming he's definitely ahead of Maradona is just ridiculous.

yes, messi still has a long way to fly before reaching maradona's heights

 

[KingEric7]

Rather great players tend to shine supernova bright whilst surrounded with other great players tailored to their needs. Which happens at almost every top club that has such a great player.

I'm glad you decided to bring that up. At club level a Messi is allowed to always perform at optimum capacity, surrounded by optimum conditions without any control experiment in sight. International football is the perfect control experiment.

Messi is too much of an individual for this argument to be used. He is the greatest and most individualistic talent in the game. He shows this at club level because he plays consistently enough to express this.

In regards to Barca, Xavi and Iniesta benefit from his presence every bit as much as he benefits from the Spaniards if that's what you mean by 'optimum conditions'. People always go on about how Messi benefits from these two, but Xavi and Iniesta owe there domination of a football match as much to the players upfront who manage to retain possession in very tight situations. They'd be running back to prevent the counter all the time without the likes of Messi and Pedro to keep the ball under-control in more advanced areas. Messi, in particular, receives some incredibly quick passing under a hell of a lot of pressure, yet he comes out of it the majority of the time. His ball retention is excellent.

Scholes finds these passes, just as the two Spaniards do, yet Rooney is often unable to control them. This has a massive effect on our team, mainly because possession is swapped at this point, meaning that Scholes has to run back and defend instead of controlling the game like he should be doing.

That's obviously not to dismiss the brilliance of Xavi and Iniesta. However, their job is so much easier having players upfront who can consistently control these passes. Barcelona have it so fecking spot on, here.

International football is very consistent. It's the players who participate who are not because they are taken out of their comfort zones. Which is when we see how good they really are. As opposed to the hyperbolic level club football elevates some of them to.

If you mean in the sense that it usually comes about at the same time every season, then yeah.

However, you've got: managers changing each tournament, tactics changing, players coming in and out, travelling all over the world to different countries (or all over the country or several countries in a world cup/continental tournament), different training methods and different dietary schedules to what players are used to for their clubs....etc

There is far too much change, and not enough of a consistent routine to implement it. Given how much of a science football is, this will have an extraordinary impact on players.

Given this, judging someone's individual ability is a much better and more accurate process at club level. That's not to say that international football is irrelevant, but it is obviously a less significant factor.



It must be stressed here that we're going off topic! I was trying to make a case against international football; not a case for Messi, in particular.

 

[Boss]

With regard to International football, I think his fortunes are going to change under the new coach.

We'll see at the Copa America.

He was good at the last one but Robinho was better.

 

[apotheosis]

It's debatable whether it's (WC) the toughest stage/most exciting stage, but it's definitely the biggest stage i.e most important, most pressure, most prestigious, most watched etc.

For the record I hate international football. I prefer club football by a mile but the WC is the biggest stage.

Like in cricket, I prefer Test Cricket any day, but the 50 over WC is the biggest stage.

Very true, but not only the biggest stage, but the most significant stage. WC's often kick start reputations and cement legacies. George Best is the only exception i can think of who has done so without such a stage.

Messi will always be measured against Maradona in terms of success in the WC, there is no getting away from that.

Maradona's individual contributions to Argentina's WC success was very, very special. For me Messi, has to inspire Argentina to at least one WC triumph before he will be universally accepted as the best ever.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Messi is too much of an individual for this argument to be used. He is the greatest and most individualistic talent in the game. He shows this at club level because he plays consistently enough to express this.

That's utterly laughable really tbf. He is in a team sport. If he wasn't at a team like Barca he wouldn't have most of his current records. That is why when he plays for an Argentina, outside his comfort zone in club football he is no where near as potent.

In regards to Barca, Xavi and Iniesta benefit from his presence every bit as much as he benefits from the Spaniards
if that's what you mean by 'optimum conditions'.

Which doesn't take away a single point I'm making. At Barca they all have optimum conditions. The same way at Real a Ronaldo has optimum conditions to perform. A team built tailored to his strengths and around him. Surrounded by the best players around, playing with them daily for years on end. It's a comfort zone.

Barca are a prime example. The side is built to milk the best out of their 3 best players, Xavi, Iniesta and Messi.

At international level the comfort zone isn't there. Xavi and Iniesta
have won Spain the Euros and the World cup outside their comfort zone. At that level Messi doesn't look so far ahead of them any more does he? Neither does Ronaldo. That is why for me its more level playing field. It allows us to see that the likes of Xavi and Iniesta are not as far behind Messi and Ronaldo as club level makes us think they are.

.. Xavi and Iniesta owe there domination of a football match as much to the players upfront who manage to retain possession in very tight situations.

They really don't. Their play for Spain has proved it. Those Barca lads have dominated midfield play since the days of Ronaldinho. They are just good at it. They even do it with the likes of Bojan playing upfront. It infact they who make it so easy for the Messi's and Villa's to shine.

. However, their job is so much easier having players upfront who can consistently control these passes. Barcelona have it so fecking spot on, here.

No. That's minimising them a bit tbh.Their job appears easier because they play with midfielders who are ace at using the ball. Surround Scholes with such players now, with energy on top of heir passing skills and he'd be consistenly god like even aged 35.

However, you've got: managers changing each tournament, tactics changing, players coming in and out, travelling all over the world to different countries (or all over the country or several countries in a world cup/continental tournament), different training methods and different dietary schedules to what players are used to for their clubs....etc

There is far too much change, and not enough of a consistent routine to implement it. Given how much of a science football is, this will have an extraordinary impact on players.

As I said earlier. The perfect control experiment. International football is consistent in its attributes. The shear inconsistency of it all and short time frame to prepare for competition. Thus if you are a true footballing great you will shine regardless. The difference between it and club football is your individual merits will stick out way more. Because you don't have endless hours of practice to perfect routines with your team mates. So you will shine because of what you can do rather than what platform your team provides for you.

.Given this, judging someone's individual ability is a much better and more accurate process at club level. That's not to say that international football is irrelevant, but it is obviously a less significant factor.

It really isn't IMO. Club level is a total comfort zone. Teams are built around stars. At international level stars have to prove why they are stars. For that is the level at which their individual merits have to win out for their teams. Rather than their teams building a platform for them to shine in optimality.

At club level the individual star is always the winner. For the aim of the collective is to maximise the damage their best player/players can do. Taking his possible achievements to even high levels of acclaim in quest for the collective to win honors.

.It must be stressed here that we're going off topic! I was trying to make a case against international football; not a case for Messi, in particular.

Actually we haven't gone off on a different tangent yet. So don't worry

 

[AhmedDimwitson]

Great player - but still got some distance to Maradona - he hasn't done much for Argentina and he is playing with a world cup and ec winning midfield there with Xavi and Iniesta. Whereas they bring the best out of him - imagine if Maradona would have had these two next him...