He started as a right sided forward at Sao Paulo and even in his debut season at Milan he started to play the roaming role and adapted himself there with in a season.
Lionel Messi
- Thread starter cesc's_mullet
- Start date
- Status
He started as a right sided forward at Sao Paulo and even in his debut season at Milan he started to play the roaming role and adapted himself there with in a season.
Kaka's position comes with that role. Messi's does to a lesser extent.
Ronaldo's doesn't.
I am not sure what that means exactly. Kaka had a free role in Milan set up in last two seasons, has reduced this season due to Ronaldinhio being there. Most Italian teams infact employ one or sometimes even two such players who are allowed to float between midfield and attack. They are not slated to play at either left, right or center. So people going on about Ronaldo being the only player in the world to have such freedom to move are wrong.
In addition Kaka and Messi are under no pressure to help defensively, while lot of United fans expect Ronaldo to track back.
Crappy is correct here lads, give it up.
Crappycraperson said:
Not sure about that. I think Messi is a little more restricted, purely by the way Barca play and their other personal. Things have perhaps started to change this season with Berbatovs arrival, but Ronaldo was mostly given free licence, and with the lack of a genuine front man, was expected to get into positions to score goals. Hence how he ended up taking more strikes on goal than any other Premiership player. Barca have Eto'o, and even when he's not available they have other players who take the role of that genuine front man
Last season you'd see Ronaldo up front as often as you did Tevez or Rooney. In fact Rooneys role was similar to that Messi plays for Barca
Ronaldo still played mainly out wide last season, just because he scored so many goals people seem to imagine that he spent the whole season right up top.
Don't agree Lizardinho! He was always interchanging, all our front 3 were, but I definately think Ronaldo was up front for significantly longer periods than anyone else
You simply don't score 40 odd goals by playing out wide
How is Messi restricted though? People keep saying that but no one has actually spelled it out. Are people saying that Messi wants to make the same runs as Ronaldo in the box and is not allowed to? Or he wants swaps wings but is not allowed to ?
And Ronaldo had most shots on goal in the premiership because he was good enough to get himself in those positions. Yes, our setup allowed him the freedom to get there but also his own movement and drive. If you had played Nani or Park in the same role, neither would have given you more than 10 league goals, probably not even that many.
And the 42 goals stats is impressive because Ronaldo did not hang in the box waiting for balls to come in. Even his tap ins were mostly from a deeper run.
To use another example to clarify this argument further. Someone like Scholes in his pomp had a great goal scoring record because he was good enough to make those runs. If you asked played someone like Carrick in the same role and asked him to make similar runs, he won't give you the same output.
Neither Tevez or Rooney are classic line-leaders like Eto'o or Henry - hence why Ronaldo is expected to make the central runs while Messi is expected to hang wide to a greater extent.
I watched Messi earlier this year in the flesh and positionally he was a classic winger - without the ball he never strayed more than 5 yards from the touchline.
I watched Messi earlier this year in the flesh and positionally he was a classic winger - without the ball he never strayed more than 5 yards from the touchline.
That is not because of any tactical decision imposed on him. That is the position where he feels most comfortable in. He simply is not the player who will make a run from a deep like Ronaldo to score that goal against Roma. And that does not restrict him in any form, he does drift inside to receive the ball and ofcourse when he has the ball, he is free to do what he likes with it.
Indeed. And evidently it does not make sense for Messi to make the run to where Eto'o will already be.
But like I've already said Ronaldo made them same runs when we had Ruud and Saha! It's just in his nature like Crappy was saying, for example Michael Ballack has not stopped Frank Lampard from getting in the box!!
All due respect, you don't know what the manager has informed him to do
I don't think anyone 'naturally' hugs the touch line. Ronaldo didn't suddenly just decide he was a better player, so he could go anywhere he liked. It's what the manager does, and how he balances the team. Fergie created a system which allowed Ronaldo to roam forward, and forgave him any defensive duties. And it worked brilliantly. It meant Tevez and Rooney weren't always in the positions we'd have liked, but when the teams winning because of it, that personal sacrifice and hard work on their part is worth it
And if anyone is a player that can run from deep and score a great goal, it's Messi
Messi stays on the wing, when not on the ball, because it helps the team maintain it's width and allows him to attack cutting in, which is when they're at their most dangerous. Ronaldo generally is the furthest forward player for us because it allows Tevez and Rooney to drift about more and it gives us an aerial threat through the middle.
Two reasons why each player play in the way they do, in terms of tactics.
Two reasons why each player play in the way they do, in terms of tactics.
Firstly, its funny how everyone keeps dodging the question about explaining how Messi is restricted at Barca.
Yes, I don't know what specific instructions he has from the manager. But the fact that loads of times he ends up playing the role of a second striker or is allowed to run with the ball which way he likes, means he has more than enough freedom to play in the Barca set up. If he was just running up and down the pitch delivering crosses, then yes one could say he is being restricted in their set up.
Ronaldo already had a brilliant season where he played like a more traditional winger in 2006/7. He/Fergie changed his role in the following season to fill the void left due to absence of any proper CF. Neither Tevez or Rooney try to occupy the same position as Ronaldo so it is not about them moving around to fit him in. If anything both of them have overlapping role which is itself a well discussed topic on this forum.
And I am very well aware of the runs Messi can make with the ball from his own half. My point was a run off the ball to meet a cross.
Yes, I don't know what specific instructions he has from the manager. But the fact that loads of times he ends up playing the role of a second striker or is allowed to run with the ball which way he likes, means he has more than enough freedom to play in the Barca set up. If he was just running up and down the pitch delivering crosses, then yes one could say he is being restricted in their set up.
Ronaldo already had a brilliant season where he played like a more traditional winger in 2006/7. He/Fergie changed his role in the following season to fill the void left due to absence of any proper CF. Neither Tevez or Rooney try to occupy the same position as Ronaldo so it is not about them moving around to fit him in. If anything both of them have overlapping role which is itself a well discussed topic on this forum.
And I am very well aware of the runs Messi can make with the ball from his own half. My point was a run off the ball to meet a cross.
That question's been answered a number of times as accurately as possible, although the main sticking point is the fact that we don't know what his instructions are so it's really quite a pointless argument.
Where?
And the instruction part only becomes relevant if he does not get the majority of the ball in the Barca team. Or if people want to argue that his natural game is the same as Ronaldo about making runs in the box to score goals rather than delivering those balls. Which is just wrong. Messi is getting to play his natural game at Barca and is not restricted in any manner.
You seem more intent in ignoring the plain and simple.
Messi as a youth player wasn't a right winger, he wasn't right sided. It was Rijkaard who brought him in and played him on the right side. His natural position is supporting a striker, as an attacking midfielder. Pretty much the same as Kaka and this is the role he plays for Argentina and the role that Maradona wants him to play with ultimate freedom. A free role if you will.
The fact that a left footed player hugs the right wing tells you he is not a right winger. It also tells you that that is the position he has been told to maintain and he does so with disapline. It is also clear as day that when Messi has the ball he has freedom to do what he likes with it, so does Ronaldo. Difference is when Ronaldo doesn't have the ball he still has the freedom to do what he likes.
No one is arguing the case that Messi would play in the same role as Ronaldo because he wouldn't even if given the chance, it's not his game. All people are saying is that Ronaldo is afforded a lot of freedom on the pitch, probably more freedom than any other player at a top club.
Frankly is correct there! Messi would get shot if he drifts wide left like when Ronnie or Iniesta are holding possesion cramping them for space. When he’s with the ball only the passing and movement matters so he can drift anywhere either setting up or scoring goals, holds a certain extent to Kaka but Milan play a different system. They play the attack around Kaka like we play around Ronaldo but his role is more disciplined, he must shift gears on whether he plays before one or two strikers, similar Del Piero at Juve in his early days.
Ronaldo’s given the freedom to play anywhere on the pitch even when he’s without the ball, a luxury that cannot be warranted in teams that stick to structured football. We play a system around Ronaldo to get the maximum out of him, with Rooney, Tevez, Scholes, Evra, Carrick, Giggs complimenting his movement. Its for the reason he struggles to even to get a foothold in Portguese midfield these days although he tries his best to pop up everywhere.
Ronaldo’s given the freedom to play anywhere on the pitch even when he’s without the ball, a luxury that cannot be warranted in teams that stick to structured football. We play a system around Ronaldo to get the maximum out of him, with Rooney, Tevez, Scholes, Evra, Carrick, Giggs complimenting his movement. Its for the reason he struggles to even to get a foothold in Portguese midfield these days although he tries his best to pop up everywhere.
I have already admitted that Ronaldo has little more freedom than Messi because he gets to roam without the ball. And that part is getting over played here. It is not as if he just pops up on the left to chase the ball there. He gets to attack the box from a wide position or switch wings at times.
But this does not mean Messi is restricted at Barca.
Ronaldo as a youth player was not a winger either. To start with Fergie tried to mould him in a Giggs like player. Loads of footballers don't retain the same position they played in the youth set-up.
And even if playing the second striker is Messi's natural position he is more or less getting to do that at Barca. More often than not he cuts in in order to occupy a central position.
The fact that Messi does not roam off the ball does not restrict him because that is not his game. Only way he would be restricted is if he did not get enough time on the ball or was not allowed to move with the ball whereever he wanted to.
I'm not saying Messi is actually restricted. Just more so than Ronaldo.
Messi does his role in the team which is to stay predominantly on the right hand side, get the ball and make things happen.
Ronaldo plays his role in his side which is to pretty much go anywhere in or around the oppositions penalty area and do his damage that way.
Neither are restricted. Only Ronaldo is less restricted than any other player at the moment. That is all.
Ronaldo doesn't do a shift defensively, Messi is better defensively than Ronaldo. Apart from set pieces in which case Messi will be the last man left up top.
Messi does his role in the team which is to stay predominantly on the right hand side, get the ball and make things happen.
Ronaldo plays his role in his side which is to pretty much go anywhere in or around the oppositions penalty area and do his damage that way.
Neither are restricted. Only Ronaldo is less restricted than any other player at the moment. That is all.
Ronaldo doesn't do a shift defensively, Messi is better defensively than Ronaldo. Apart from set pieces in which case Messi will be the last man left up top.
If this "luxury" can bring you the league and champions league double, why wouldnt other teams adopt it if they acquired Ronaldo? Some very very stupid posts.
Not really considering not every team has the players that united possess. It takes certain players to play the way United play and if you think you can pick up the calibre of player united have for peanuts let alone Ronaldo you're having a giraffe.
Be it tactical genius or blind luck United managed to get a system where they were very attacking and played to Uniteds and Ronaldos strenghs (coinciding with getting rid of for me the best penalty box striker in the world). Almost Roma like (except much better) in the way they allowed others to bomb on and the forwards to rarely get in the box.
I said before the start of the season that i doubt Ronaldo would get 40 goals again and i stand by that. Defenders are getting wiser to Ronaldos ways and teams will set themselves up to stop Ronaldo. That won't make them stop United or even Ronaldo when he particularly fancies it but i don't think by the end of this season he'll be grabbing all the personal awards and walking away with the golden boot.
People said the same before the start of last year. The thing that makes this sound even more stupid is that he has a better goals per game record than this time last season.
Probably much better assist ratio as well.
Well if you think his performances so far have been great then fair play.
You don't have to perform well to score goals when you're as clinical and get into as many great positions as Ronaldo.
And yes, quite a few of his performances have been great anyway.
We play our attack around Ronaldo for the reason he is our best player just like the Spanish waiter playing his attack around Gerrard and when Wenger played around Henry, that correlated to the successful run of the aforementioned players . With Ronaldo being a better footballer than that Scouser and Frenchman and United having better footballers than Liverpool and Arsenal, we were able to win the double but as per your deluded logic, any other team that play the attack around Ronaldo can win a European double.
You're nothing more than Ronaldo fan boy wanking your life over youtube compilations and consoling yourself unable to grasp the gist out of any post.
Sod off
A bit Harsh....
Can't really see a club wanting to spend £60m on Ronaldo and then build a team around Wesley Sneijder and expect to finish 2nd, do you?
Ronaldo is simply a better footballer than Sneijder, Robinho etal would be an asset to any team he plays but building the team around Ronaldo alone cannot guarantee instant success although it might work out on the longer run.
Real Madrid's transfer policies are rubbish,their galatico signings were laughing stock and no other top player were bothered to play for them even when they offered shite loads of money and Ronaldo was the only soul they could catch napping.
Disappointed Messi wasn't involved at all today. Barca subsequently drew 1-1 at home to Getafe.
Interesting bit of stats from the commentator about Barca and Messi this season. On average when Messi plays for Barca they score every 25mins. When he doesn't play they score every 73 mins.
Interesting bit of stats from the commentator about Barca and Messi this season. On average when Messi plays for Barca they score every 25mins. When he doesn't play they score every 73 mins.
Awful match that was, awful.
Another MOTM performance from Messi last night, a goal and an assist and causing all sorts of problems and basically putting the game to bed after 60mins when he was taken off. He's unstoppable at the moment it seems but the big tests in la liga start now.
The media are starting to question whether Barcelona rely on Messi.
This should give an idea of how good he is, when you consider that Messi plays in a team that includes Iniesta, Xavi, Eto'o, etc....
This should give an idea of how good he is, when you consider that Messi plays in a team that includes Iniesta, Xavi, Eto'o, etc....
Is that a joke....?
messi is quality but Ronaldo just about tops it. The premiership is the best league so the best players should prove themseves in the best league. In the champions league Ronaldo has gone from strength to strength once he broke his duck
Additionally I reckon if you'd have swapped messi with Ronado for Barcalona last season, Barcalona would have beaten us AND i'm sure we'd have seen a different Ronaldo with a team that was actually pressing, because we were quite poor going forward in both semi final games
But it's all opinion anyway. You can talk about messi, ronaldo - your talking about top players and no one can deny it
Additionally I reckon if you'd have swapped messi with Ronado for Barcalona last season, Barcalona would have beaten us AND i'm sure we'd have seen a different Ronaldo with a team that was actually pressing, because we were quite poor going forward in both semi final games
But it's all opinion anyway. You can talk about messi, ronaldo - your talking about top players and no one can deny it
They say the same about Ronaldo, in a team that contains Rooney, Scholes, Carrick, Tevez etc
Barcelona would have beaten us with Ronaldo? How can you be so sure of that? Did Ronaldo tip the balance over the two legs? I think not, it was two very evenly matched teams, and it took a moment of genius from Paul Scholes to seperate tham. A moment Xavi say was equally capable of, but Paul did it when it mattered. That's what the very top players do
But anyway, I don't think you can say that with any certainty. They didn't have Ronaldo, but they did have Messi, and they still couldn't beat us. We handled him pretty well for the most part, he was still easily their most dangerous player though. And I'm not suprised to hear this talk about relying on Messi, because the truth of the matter is, they do. Barca are much less successful when Messi isn't in the team, to an almost daft extent. From last season, the player we can least do without is... Rooney. The lad gets grief from some idiots, but he's a brilliant player, and I tell you one thing, Ronaldo isn't half as effective without him in the team
Ronaldo missed a penalty while Messi was generally perceived to be the better player over the two legs.
- Status