Lionel Messi

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B9 from YAWN said:
Then wtf are you doing in the general football forum?
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You can find the answer to that question immediately beneath the large RedCafe logo at the top of the page.

You're not the first rival fan to imply that the football forum - on a website dedicated to Manchester United - should somehow be out of bounds to fans of Manchester United. This is odd, to say the least.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
You can find the answer to that question immediately beneath the large RedCafe logo at the top of the page.

You're not the first rival fan to imply that the football forum - on a website dedicated to Manchester United - should somehow be out of bounds to fans of Manchester United. This is odd, to say the least.
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I'm not saying that at all. I am wondering why he would bother posting here when he doesn't care much for football beyond united.

I wouldn't care to post in the man united fora much either, as I don't care much for your lot.
 
B9 from YAWN said:
I'm not saying that at all. I am wondering why he would bother posting here when he doesn't care much for football beyond united.

I wouldn't care to post in the man united fora much either, as I don't care much for your lot.
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Just because I'm a lot more interested in United than other football matters doesn't mean I have no interest in other football matters.
 
Messi seems to be a phenomenon. He's definitely up there, amongst the best of all time, but only time will tell if he remains amongst them or whether he surpasses them all.

And that is coming from an embittered United supporter, not a football fan.

Now enough of this objectivity, I'm off to laugh at Liverpool
 
Fergie's gum said:
Messi seems to be a phenomenon. He's definitely up there, amongst the best of all time, but only time will tell if he remains amongst them or whether he surpasses them all.
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or gets injured and doesn't fulfill his early promise like a certain chubby Brazilian?
 
Raoul said:
No shit. He has a vested interest in the matter since he made Ronaldo into the world beater that he is today.
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If it was Mourinho, you could make that argument, because Jose does tend to over-rate his players in the media.

But has Sir Alex ever made similar statements about any other present or past United player in such certain terms as his quote about Ronaldo?
 
Cal? said:
or gets injured and doesn't fulfill his early promise like a certain chubby Brazilian?
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:lol:

"Hey, let's not forget bad things happen too. And especially could happen to Messi [fingers crossed]."
 
B9 from YAWN said:
:lol:

"Hey, let's not forget bad things happen too. And especially could happen to Messi [fingers crossed]."
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I didn't say I was hoping for it to happen, but it's just as likely a scenario as him remaining consistently great.
 
Cal? said:
If it was Mourinho, you could make that argument, because Jose does tend to over-rate his players in the media.

But has Sir Alex ever made similar statements about any other present or past United player in such certain terms as his quote about Ronaldo?
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Well no, because no other United player could have been rated has highly as Ronaldo. And he's not likely to say the same about Rooney because he's not in the business of inflating his players' egos during their time at United.

Your arguments in this thread are very weak. I'm a massive Ronaldo fan and would love to legitimately claim that he's the best player in the world - but at some point it just becomes embarrassingly delusional when its so bleeding obvious that Messi is the best in the business right now.
 
Raoul said:
Well no, because no other United player could have been rated has highly as Ronaldo. And he's not likely to say the same about Rooney because he's not in the business of inflating his players' egos during their time at United.

Your arguments in this thread are very weak. I'm a massive Ronaldo fan and would love to legitimately claim that he's the best player in the world - but at some point it just becomes embarrassingly delusional when its so bleeding obvious that Messi is the best in the business right now.
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Until this 8 goal haul in the past week, Messi had not been any more productive than Ronaldo (when he isn't injured) or Rooney over the season.

Most people have based their argument on Messi's style being easier on the eye, hardly the most convincing argument.

Basically you're saying Sir Alex publicly stated he thinks Ronaldo is "by far" the best player in the world only to boost his own ego? As in "look at me, I developed this kid into "by far" the best player in the world"??

I've said time and again that Messi was the best player in 08/09; however, I believe the jury is still out for this season...
 
I haven't been keeping up with Barca actively this year but wasn't there a period when Messi had a barren run? It seems with Ronaldo that whenever he is fit or not suspended, he is almost always on the scoresheet.

As of now, Messi has 34 goals in 38 games and Ronaldo has 22 in 24.

Before this week, Messi had 26 goals in 35 games whereas Ronaldo had something like 22 in 22.
 
Cal? said:
Until this 8 goal haul in the past week, Messi had not been any more productive than Ronaldo (when he isn't injured) or Rooney over the season.
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His 34 goals in 38 appearances compared to Ronaldo's 22 would seem to suggest otherwise. And being injured is not an excuse for what could've been. The numbers simply don't add up for you, as well as the fact that Messi's goals are generally far more impressive than Ronaldo's.

Cal? said:
Most people have based their argument on Messi's style being easier on the eye, hardly the most convincing argument..
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But it is a convincing argument. If a player scores far more goals than any other player, most of which are quite stunning to watch, then yes, the eye candy argument combined with his numbers seem to suggest he's quite comfortably the best - followed by Rooney, then Ronaldo.

Cal? said:
I believe the jury is still out for this season...
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Which jury are you talking about ? Its hard to find any rational observer who still thinks Ronaldo is the best. Its like saying Kaka is still the best during Ronaldo's 42 goal year. Utterly delusional.
 
askabob91 said:
I haven't been keeping up with Barca actively this year but wasn't there a period when Messi had a barren run? It seems with Ronaldo that whenever he is fit or not suspended, he is almost always on the scoresheet.

As of now, Messi has 34 goals in 38 games and Ronaldo has 22 in 24.

Before this week, Messi had 26 goals in 35 games whereas Ronaldo had something like 22 in 22.
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The thing is Ronaldo really doesn't bring feck all besides goals and if he does it's not on a world class level. Where as Messi brings a lot besides goals.
 
askabob91 said:
As of now, Messi has 34 goals in 38 games and Ronaldo has 22 in 24.

Before this week, Messi had 26 goals in 35 games whereas Ronaldo had something like 22 in 22.
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Raoul said:
His 34 goals in 38 appearances compared to Ronaldo's 22 would seem to suggest otherwise. And being injured is not an excuse for what could've been. The numbers simply don't add up for you, as well as the fact that Messi's goals are generally far more impressive than Ronaldo's.

But it is a convincing argument. If a player scores far more goals than any other player, most of which are quite stunning to watch, then yes, the eye candy argument combined with his numbers seem to suggest he's quite comfortably the best - followed by Rooney, then Ronaldo.

Which jury are you talking about ? Its hard to find any rational observer who still thinks Ronaldo is the best. Its like saying Kaka is still the best during Ronaldo's 42 goal year. Utterly delusional.
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As askabob91 pointed out, before this week it was 26 goals in 35 games compared to 22 goals in 24 games, which suggests Ronaldo has (until this past week) been more productive when fit.

The eye candy argument is just that, purely subjective, the fact is Messi score goals that he's good at (dribble past player, curler from the edge of the box), whilst he cannot dream to score the sort of goals Ronaldo scores (30-40yd freekicks, towering headers, etc). It's purely subjective which goals are "better".

It's like comparing Van Basten's volley in the Euro88 with R Carlos' freekick against France.

Ronaldo's 42goal season ended with him being crowned Champions of England & Europe. Messi has not won anything of note yet and if Messi gets injured for a month whilst Ronaldo scores 15 goals during that time, will it change the opinion of most people on this thread? I highly doubted.
 
Has anyone seen him score with his right foot?
 
Cal? said:
Most people have based their argument on Messi's style being easier on the eye, hardly the most convincing argument.
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Why do people think Messi is easier on the eye than Ronaldo? Messi's a wonderful dribbler, but Ronaldo is a fantastically elegant player in everything he does - running with the ball, trickery, shooting, heading.
 
Messi has 13 goals in 43 appearances for Argentina

Ronaldo has 22 goals in 69 appearances for Portugal

Whilst Ronaldo hardly plays upfront for Portugal, Messi has always played upfront for Argentina, and before anyone mentions the Maradona is a terrible manager argument; Queiroz is hardly a great manager.
 
Cal? said:
As askabob91 pointed out, before this week it was 26 goals in 35 games compared to 22 goals in 24 games, which suggests Ronaldo has (until this past week) been more productive when fit.
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Irrelevant. Reality isn't discriminatory. Messi has 34 goals in 38 games this year. If you dispute this, then perhaps we're in disagreement about what constitutes evidence. It's utterly goofy to suggest he only had 26 a few weeks ago, as if the past three weeks didn't happen simply to prop up your argument.

Cal? said:
The eye candy argument is just that, purely subjective, the fact is Messi score goals that he's good at (dribble past player, curler from the edge of the box), whilst he cannot dream to score the sort of goals Ronaldo scores (30-40yd freekicks, towering headers, etc). It's purely subjective which goals are "better".
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Its not subjective. Ask any non muppet without a dog in the fight and you're likely to get a disproportionate amount of people who fancy Messi as the best in the business.


Cal? said:
Ronaldo's 42goal season ended with him being crowned Champions of England & Europe. Messi has not won anything of note yet and if Messi gets injured for a month whilst Ronaldo scores 15 goals during that time, will it change the opinion of most people on this thread? I highly doubted.
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Does the Champions League, La Liga Treble, and Top scorer in the league reverberate for you ? Your last sentence sums up your position very nicely. An argument full of subjective hypotheticals intended to prop up Ronaldo at all costs.
 
Plechazunga said:
Why do people think Messi is easier on the eye than Ronaldo? Messi's a wonderful dribbler, but Ronaldo is a fantastically elegant player in everything he does - running with the ball, trickery, shooting, heading.
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Because most people seem to be obsessed with his ability to dribble past players, apparently dribbling is much more important than shooting from distance or heading...
 
Cal? said:
Messi has 13 goals in 43 appearances for Argentina

Ronaldo has 22 goals in 69 appearances for Portugal

Whilst Ronaldo hardly plays upfront for Portugal, Messi has always played upfront for Argentina, and before anyone mentions the Maradona is a terrible manager argument; Queiroz is hardly a great manager.
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Internationals mean nothing outside of Major Tournaments. Say Messi had bagged 10 goals against Bolivia, Peru and Venezuala over the years would that suddenly make him better than Ronaldo? Of course it wouldn't. If it's not in the Euros, Copa America (debatable) or World Cup it's not worth caring about.
 
Raoul said:
Irrelevant. Reality isn't discriminatory. Messi has 34 goals in 38 games this year. If you dispute this, then perhaps we're in disagreement about what constitutes evidence. It's utterly goofy to suggest he only had 26 a few weeks ago, as if the past three weeks didn't happen simply to prop up your argument.

Its not subjective. Ask any non muppet without a dog in the fight and you're likely to get a disproportionate amount of people who fancy Messi as the best in the business.

Does the Champions League, La Liga Treble, and Top scorer in the league reverberate for you ? Your last sentence sums up your position very nicely. An argument full of subjective hypotheticals intended to prop up Ronaldo at all costs.
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Actually 22/24 is still a better ratio than 34/38. Btw, not 3 weeks, ONE week!
I'm not disputing Messi has had a great week, but this argument did not start this week, are you going to say that based on this past week, Messi is the best player in the world? That I definitely agree with.

Of course it's subjective, you even resorted to putting your subjective slant on Sir Alex's quote. :rolleyes:

Err... has he won those things THIS SEASON? I've already said he was the best player in 08/09.
 
Cal? said:
Because most people seem to be obsessed with his ability to dribble past players, apparently dribbling is much more important than shooting from distance or heading...
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Yeh but Messi does shoot from distance and can score from there too.

As others have said its not about Messi being 'easy on the eye' its the fact that he is becoming the all round package. He can dictate play with really creative passes, cross field balls etc. No doubt that right now he is the BPITW. Not too mention he is dominating games, yes Ronaldo is scoring every game pretty much but when I watch Real he doesn't look like he is the dominating player in the team. Though his end-product can not be ignored either.
 
Myxomatosis said:
Internationals mean nothing outside of Major Tournaments. Say Messi had bagged 10 goals against Bolivia, Peru and Venezuala over the years would that suddenly make him better than Ronaldo? Of course it wouldn't. If it's not in the Euros, Copa America (debatable) or World Cup it's not worth caring about.
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Ronaldo has already played a starring role for Portugal to make the final of Euro 04 and the semi of WC06.

What has Messi done? Crashed out in the QF in WC06 if I remember correctly, also got trashed by Brazil in Copa America in 07.
 
vuc said:
Yeh but Messi does shoot from distance and can score from there too.

As others have said its not about Messi being 'easy on the eye' its the fact that he is becoming the all round package. He can dictate play with really creative passes, cross field balls etc. No doubt that right now he is the BPITW. Not too mention he is dominating games, yes Ronaldo is scoring every game pretty much but when I watch Real he doesn't look like he is the dominating player in the team. Though his end-product can not be ignored either.
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That seems to be the different styles of the teams. Barcelona always look in control, even in games they lose (many have argued they looked so composed against us in 2008).

Real Madrid rarely seem to dictate games, even the ones when they trash the opposition.
 
Cal? said:
Actually 22/24 is still a better ratio than 34/38.
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So is 5/5, or 16/17. Fact is its more difficult to maintain the ratio the higher the amount of fixtures. Wouldn't you say ??? :wenger:

Cal? said:
I'm not disputing Messi has had a great week, but this argument did not start this week, are you going to say that based on this past week, Messi is the best player in the world? That I definitely agree with.
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You're trivializing Messi's current and long term form in order to support your argument. You claim Messi had a great week, while many are accurately beginning to realize he's closer to Diego Maradona than Cristiano Ronaldo. Wake up and smell the coffee.

Cal? said:
Err... has he won those things THIS SEASON? I've already said he was the best player in 08/09.
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He won't have to. He's already done everything necessary to retain his BPITW award, even if Real pip Barca to the title and Barca don't win the CL. Chances are Messi will finish the year with far more goals than last year, and his performance in the WC will only serve to drive home the obvious.
 
Cal? said:
Ronaldo has already played a starring role for Portugal to make the final of Euro 04 and the semi of WC06.

What has Messi done? Crashed out in the QF in WC06 if I remember correctly, also got trashed by Brazil in Copa America in 07.
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Ronaldo has never been anything better than okay in a major tournament so you're really clutching at straws at that one.

Messi was mostly an unused sub in 2006 as he was 18 at the time so I failed to see how that proves that in 2010 Ronaldo is the better player.
 
Cal? said:
Messi has not won anything of note yet .
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On the back of him winning a treble only 9 months ago :lol::lol:

What a complete Ihni binni dimi diniwiny anitaime

If I could think of a word better than spastic that would do ......but fksakes


You only ever come out of these entanglements looking like a complete buffoon Cal - its hard to believe how stupid you are

......but you keep proving you ...er .... are
 
Myxomatosis said:
Ronaldo has never been anything better than okay in a major tournament so you're really clutching at straws at that one.

Messi was mostly an unused sub in 2006 as he was 18 at the time so I failed to see how that proves that in 2010 Ronaldo is the better player.
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The Argentines were very careful in using him, I recall. I was in Argentina prior to the WC, and he'd just returned from injury to star in the traditional first team v U21 team match before a WC. Nobody dared go close to or tackle the fresh from injury Messi, lol.

He never even got a chance to star in their crashing out, really. Riquelme off, two others off, no Tevez, no Messi... 1-0 with 15 mins to go or whatever should see the Germans off... feck me what an oversight of history...
 
Ronaldo has been just as good as Messi this season in terms of goal return but he is being overshadowed because of his time out of the game. I think the upcoming El Clasico will help determine who is the better player. That, and whether Barcelona go on to retain the Champions League and if Madrid win La Liga. That scenario would make it quite tricky.
 
Raoul said:
So is 5/5, or 16/17. Fact is its more difficult to maintain the ratio the higher the amount of fixtures.

Your trivializing Messi's current and long term form in order to support your argument. You claim Messi had a great week, while many are accurately beginning to realize he's closer to Diego Maradona than Cristiano Ronaldo. Wake up and smell the coffee.

He won't have to. He's already done everything necessary to retain his BTITW award, even if Real pip Barca to the title and Barca don't win the CL. Chances are Messi will finish the year with far more goals than last year, and his performance in the WC will only serve to drive home the obvious.
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With his 8 goal haul in the past week, I agree there is a strong case for Messi right now, especially given Ronaldo missed a couple of months due to injury.

Comparing Messi to Maradona is just laughable, we shall see how he does in the World Cup...

If Real win La Liga and United win the CL, I'm pretty sure Messi will not win WFOTY.
 
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