Lionel Messi | PSG Watch

tomaldinho1 said:
It was always heavily political, at least previously there was little doubt Ronaldo/Messi we’re individually levels above everyone so it didn’t really matter who won it.

When neither Xavi/Iniesta won it after doing a Euros,WC, Euros clean sweep plus matching Messi’s domestic trophy haul, it seemed like maybe they were just going off stats/who scored the most and trophies didn’t really matter…Lewa not winning this year (regardless of being robbed by covid last year) then makes it more confusing. Now Messi/Ronaldo are both over hill (yes they’re still great but both way off where they were, naturally so) and one still wins it - essentially for finally winning the Copa you then refer back to Xavi/Iniesta not winning it despite winning superior trophies and ask the question…why does anyone even put value on the BdO?
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In terms of club seasons, Lewandowski was better than Messi (55 vs 52 G+A, Barca failed in the league while Bayern failed in the CL), in the international tournament Messi had the most goals, assists, MotMs, overall best player, and won the trophy - quite a performance, which nobody came close to in the Euros.
Among the other standout players from last season - Benzema played great but won nothing, Gundogan???, Haaland scored a ton but won nothing and didn't make a mark in the CL KOs (his biggest stage), Jorginho got all the medals but wasn't the star for either club or country, Ronaldo scored a ton but Juve lost for the first time in forever.
I think Messi is a fair call, same as Lewa. Statistically way ahead of the rest of the field, choosing one depends on weighing Bayern's millionth-in-a-row league win over Argentina's rare Copa.

I think a few things went against Xavi/Iniesta - they're two people, hard to definitively choose one and say he was the best that year, whereas Messi's performance was always more individual, bias against non-goalscorers, and, finally, when the three were on the same team, there was one clear standout. I wanted Sneijder to win in 2010 (treble and WC final) but going back and watching Messi's absurd club season - can't really argue.
 
berbatrick said:
Haaland scored a ton but won nothing and didn't make a mark in the CL KOs (his biggest stage)
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Haaland won DFB-Pokal last season and he finishen as a top scorer in UCL. Most players scores a vast majority of their goals in group stage, not everyone is Cristiano.
 
berbatrick said:
In terms of club seasons, Lewandowski was better than Messi (55 vs 52 G+A, Barca failed in the league while Bayern failed in the CL), in the international tournament Messi had the most goals, assists, MotMs, overall best player, and won the trophy - quite a performance, which nobody came close to in the Euros.
Among the other standout players from last season - Benzema played great but won nothing, Gundogan???, Haaland scored a ton but won nothing and didn't make a mark in the CL KOs (his biggest stage), Jorginho got all the medals but wasn't the star for either club or country, Ronaldo scored a ton but Juve lost for the first time in forever.
I think Messi is a fair call, same as Lewa. Statistically way ahead of the rest of the field, choosing one depends on weighing Bayern's millionth-in-a-row league win over Argentina's rare Copa.

I think a few things went against Xavi/Iniesta - they're two people, hard to definitively choose one and say he was the best that year, whereas Messi's performance was always more individual, bias against non-goalscorers, and, finally, when the three were on the same team, there was one clear standout. I wanted Sneijder to win in 2010 (treble and WC final) but going back and watching Messi's absurd club season - can't really argue.
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You’re putting too much importance on a pandemic hit tournament with 10 teams. They even started inviting foreign sides to play and the big teams just stayed away. The only reason it’s a big deal is because it backs up Messi winning the Ballon Dor
 
AaronRedDevil said:
I swear half the time Messi wins it, he doesn’t deserve it. Not bashing Messi. Just saying. Also PSG are such a sad club. He didn’t win it to playing for you, you saddos :lol:
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He should have 13. He's been the best since 2008.
 
Drygon said:
Haaland won DFB-Pokal last season and he finishen as a top scorer in UCL. Most players scores a vast majority of their goals in group stage, not everyone is Cristiano.
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Without a real trophy, with only a numbers comparison, it's Haaland's 53 G+A vs Messi's 52. Not exactly a winning argument.

Iker Quesadillas said:
Joint most goals.
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Not joint in the million other things! He had a standout tournament and drove them to the final.

cyberman said:
You’re putting too much importance on a pandemic hit tournament with 10 teams. They even started inviting foreign sides to play and the big teams just stayed away. The only reason it’s a big deal is because it backs up Messi winning the Ballon Dor
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You can downplay it as much as you like, but it's this vs the Bundesliga. Which Bayern win in their sleep. If they'd won the CL, Lewa should have won it.
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Giving the award by year rather than season is another stupidity.
 
Varane + Lindelof to try and stop him. Can't play Maguire.
 
berbatrick said:
In terms of club seasons, Lewandowski was better than Messi (55 vs 52 G+A, Barca failed in the league while Bayern failed in the CL), in the international tournament Messi had the most goals, assists, MotMs, overall best player, and won the trophy - quite a performance, which nobody came close to in the Euros.
Among the other standout players from last season - Benzema played great but won nothing, Gundogan???, Haaland scored a ton but won nothing and didn't make a mark in the CL KOs (his biggest stage), Jorginho got all the medals but wasn't the star for either club or country, Ronaldo scored a ton but Juve lost for the first time in forever.
I think Messi is a fair call, same as Lewa. Statistically way ahead of the rest of the field, choosing one depends on weighing Bayern's millionth-in-a-row league win over Argentina's rare Copa.

I think a few things went against Xavi/Iniesta - they're two people, hard to definitively choose one and say he was the best that year, whereas Messi's performance was always more individual, bias against non-goalscorers, and, finally, when the three were on the same team, there was one clear standout. I wanted Sneijder to win in 2010 (treble and WC final) but going back and watching Messi's absurd club season - can't really argue.
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I feel people keep forgetting the BdO is essentially a calendar year... that's why this year I think feels a bit contrived in how Lewa was overlooked. Messi had a good domestic season with Barca but average with PSG, great Copa and he won the CdR...if that name wasn't Lionel Messi I don't think he's getting close to Lewa. Is there that much difference with Lautoro, who won the Copa (joint top scorer with Messi), won a much better better domestic trophy & has been on fire all calendar year domestically (and is now in a 'better' league since Messi moved)? That's not even getting into the debate about how prestigious a covid ravaged Copa should be although I'm hesitant to use that against Messi as he can't choose where he's born - with that in mind Lewa plays for a nation who will never win anything internationally so why should that count against him?


Jorginho argument I don't agree with but I know that is how it is & how voting works (and although he was nowhere near as good as Xavi he had the same issue) as it's almost impossible for a CM to win the award unless they are very offensive in how they play. I personally don't see how you could have watched peak Barca and not seen Xavi as most important to their system, Messi could have been replaced (albeit by an inferior player), I don't really think there's anyone comparable to Xavi. For that system, he was perfect but again, I get how the voting works and so he was never going to win.
 
berbatrick said:
Without a real trophy, with only a numbers comparison, it's Haaland's 53 G+A vs Messi's 52. Not exactly a winning argument.



Not joint in the million other things! He had a standout tournament and drove them to the final.



You can downplay it as much as you like, but it's this vs the Bundesliga. Which Bayern win in their sleep. If they'd won the CL, Lewa should have won it.
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Giving the award by year rather than season is another stupidity.
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Bundesliga is harder to win than Copa. They’ve had 4 Copas in the last 6 years ffs! Messi has a better chance to win that as a Copa Del Ray!
 
cyberman said:
Bundesliga is harder to win than Copa.
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:lol:

it's a bunch of training games for Bayern to keep their players fit for CL, nothing else. it's essentially an advanced feeder system for Bayern. Lewa just had historic season yet nobody even bothers to watch those goals or even knows which teams are in it. I bet majority of caf still think Schalke and Werder are major clubs there. Emirates Cup is bigger competition. factos.
 
cyberman said:
How’s it not? Have you seen the fall in quality outside of Brazil and Argentina?
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Because Bayern have won Bundesliga 9 times in a row since 2013 and 8 times out of the 9 they have 10 or more points than the 2nd place, it really is not competitive apart from the 18/19 season.

I do slightly agree with the last Copa being the weakest since Chile/Uruguay/Colombia are not as good as they used to be. But definitely still harder than winning the Bundesliga, especially with such a huge gap in spending power between Bayern and everybody else
 
Bole Top said:
:lol:

it's a bunch of training games for Bayern to keep their players fit for CL, nothing else. it's essentially an advanced feeder system for Bayern. Lewa just had historic season yet nobody even bothers to watch those goals or even knows which teams are in it. I bet majority of caf still think Schalke and Werder are major clubs there. Emirates Cup is bigger competition. factos.
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That’s only because of players like Lewa playing for Bayern. A player who should have won the Ballon Dor
With 4 tournaments in 6 years he really should have led Argentina to more. Their literal group stage is basically don’t finish last out of 5 and you’re through
 
cyberman said:
Bundesliga is harder to win than Copa. They’ve had 4 Copas in the last 6 years ffs! Messi has a better chance to win that as a Copa Del Ray!
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Argentina has only won 3 Copas America post-1960. They have won 15 Copas America in total, 12 of them were won in black and white amateurish football in the 10s,20s and 30s, only 3 in 100% proffessional era..not as easy as it sounds.

Bayern Munich can win Bundesliga with no problem, not also because they have more money than other german teams, but also because they are too well run as a club to feck things up like current Juventus, post 2007 ACMilan, current United or 90s-2000s Liverpool.
They have people like Rummenigge, Beckenbauer, and Oliver Kahn(people who knows the football world) in charge of the club, and they clearly know stuff about the game.

Plus Bundesliga will eventually lose promising german managers who aren't managing Bayern, as they will move to PL or other rich teams like Tuchel and Klopp did.
 
11101 said:
His retirement tour really isn't being helped by Ronaldo scoring nearly every week in a much harder league.
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ronaldo has been scoring against mostly fodder though, Messi still has done very well in CL so far.

Messi also assisted the other day even if the match from him wasn’t very good.
 
Daysleeper said:
ronaldo has been scoring against mostly fodder though, Messi still has done very well in CL so far.
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Almost all of Ronaldo’s goals were game winning or game tying goals. So you may call the opposition fodder but he was pivotal in his team
securing crucial points in games they would’ve lost or drawn if not for him.

Also,

Spurs, Arsenal & West Ham are fodder?
 
MrEleson said:
Almost all of Ronaldo’s goals were game winning or game tying goals. So you may call the opposition fodder but he was pivotal in his team
securing crucial points in games they would’ve lost or drawn if not for him.

Also,

Spurs, Arsenal & West Ham are fodder?
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Yes, Arsenal and spurs are on a big downturn right now. West ham won’t be top 5 by seasons end.

scraping by Norwich is nothing to write home about, but he is def having a better season than Messi so far
 
Wolf1992 said:
Argentina has only won 3 Copas America post-1960. They have won 15 Copas America in total, 12 of them were won in black and white amateurish football in the 10s,20s and 30s, only 3 in 100% proffessional era..not as easy as it sounds.

Bayern Munich can win Bundesliga with no problem, not also because they have more money than other german teams, but also because they are too well run as a club to feck things up like current Juventus, post 2007 ACMilan, current United or 90s-2000s Liverpool.
They have people like Rummenigge, Beckenbauer, and Oliver Kahn(people who knows the football world) in charge of the club, and they clearly know stuff about the game.

Plus Bundesliga will eventually lose promising german managers who aren't managing Bayern, as they will move to PL or other rich teams like Tuchel and Klopp did.
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Argentina not winning is on them. The competition has had a history of top players simply skipping the tournament up until fairly recently. It’s this notion that it’s on par with the Euros or is a Ballon Dor defining tournament that simply isn’t true. 4 competitions in 6 years, moving it away to the States for shit attendances anyway. It’s a mess and the only time I have seen it flagged at this major title is because Messi finally won one imo. The Brazil public literally boycotted the last one!
 
Wolf1992 said:
Argentina has only won 3 Copas America post-1960. They have won 15 Copas America in total, 12 of them were won in black and white amateurish football in the 10s,20s and 30s, only 3 in 100% proffessional era..not as easy as it sounds.
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I'm not really sure why you are selecting 'post-1960' other than because Argentina won it three times in the 1950s. The Copa America wasn't played for 8 years between 1967 and 1975 which is also going to skew things.

How about this instead:
In 1986, CONMEBOL decided to return to having one country host the tournament and to contest it every other year.
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Since then, Argentina have won it 3 times. Uruguay have won it 3 times. Brazil have won it 6 times. Chile won it twice, and Colombia won it once (in an edition that Argentina chose not to participate in).

So they're joint 2nd-most wins in the modern incarnation of the tournament.
 
cyberman said:
It’s a mess and the only time I have seen it flagged at this major title is because Messi finally won one imo.
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dude, you're drowning here. follow your own logic, is winning the BL with Bayern a major trophy? Conference League trophy has more weight to it.
 
jamesjimmybyrondean said:
Messi has been really disappointing this season. He plays so non chalant.
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Why would he care about Ligue 1 though? He has shown up in the CL so far, nobody cares if he gets like 10 goals in Ligue 1 if he takes PSG to a CL-final.
 
Morty_ said:
Why would he care about Ligue 1 though? He has shown up in the CL so far, nobody cares if he gets like 10 goals in Ligue 1 if he takes PSG to a CL-final.
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This is true, same goes for Bayern players this coming season (no NT’s during the upcoming voting months for the next ballon d’or). It’s CL or bust
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
So they're joint 2nd-most wins in the modern incarnation of the tournament.
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Yeah, joint 2nd. Incomparable to Bayern winning the same trophy 9 years running. Whatever one thinks of the Copa or even the Euros, its not the same level of ease as compared to Bayern taking the piss with the Bundesliga.
 
Morty_ said:
Why would he care about Ligue 1 though? He has shown up in the CL so far, nobody cares if he gets like 10 goals in Ligue 1 if he takes PSG to a CL-final.
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Because they are paying him the highest wages. Pretty shameful not to care. If Mbappe and Marquinhos has that attitude they wouldn't be topping the table. His performance in Ligue will be swept under the rug if he can deliver them the CL though but the chances are very slim
 
This is so much bullshit!!!!

He left, we never have to see him again that was the deal!!!!

FML :mad: :mad: :mad:
 
Real Madrid fans should be happy to face him since he´s done and not so good in important matches, etc, etc.
 
giorno said:
This is so much bullshit!!!!

He left, we never have to see him again that was the deal!!!!

FML :mad: :mad: :mad:
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In fairness you lot have done very well to keep him quiet in recent years. I also could see mbappe not trying his hardest to make a smooth transition to you for next season ;)
 
Look, that was tongue-in-cheek. I'm just sick and tired of him honestly. He's still scary but far from the scariest player on that team. Hopefully Neymar won't be available?

My biggest fear here is Mbappé beats us then decides to stay in Paris honestly
 
MrEleson said:
Almost all of Ronaldo’s goals were game winning or game tying goals. So you may call the opposition fodder but he was pivotal in his team
securing crucial points in games they would’ve lost or drawn if not for him.

Also,

Spurs, Arsenal & West Ham are fodder?
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Yes and this is coming from an Arsenal fan. This whole notion of hardest league in the world is just hype. Its hard against the top 3 i.e Man City, Liverpool and Chelsea where Ronaldo has failed to score but below that, there is a huge gap in quality.

United lost the EL to 7th placed Villarreal last season, Leicester have been relegated to the conference league by Russian farmers. Tottenham are about to be kicked out of the conference league by a team from a supposed farmers league. Arsenal haven't seen CL football in 5 years.
 
11101 said:
His retirement tour really isn't being helped by Ronaldo scoring nearly every week in a much harder league.
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Nearly every week? Or in 5 out of 13 games? What’s the truth I wonder…….
 
giorno said:
Look, that was tongue-in-cheek. I'm just sick and tired of him honestly. He's still scary but far from the scariest player on that team. Hopefully Neymar won't be available?

My biggest fear here is Mbappé beats us then decides to stay in Paris honestly
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Short of getting completely dusted by PSG, I can't see this having a real impact on his decision. I don't think PSG have enough time to really improve their form enough to be able to dominate, although the last couple of games have shown promising signs but Madrid is so far ahead as far as team cohesion, I don't see PSG catching up although with their talent up front, anything can happen.
 
cyberman said:
How’s it not? Have you seen the fall in quality outside of Brazil and Argentina?
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The FIFA rankings top 10 during the last 7 years has been consistently made up of at least 4-5 South American teams (Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, Chile, Colombia), so this comment is wildly off the mark. Ronaldo's Portugal were knocked out by Uruguay in WC 2018, USA in WC 2014 and Chile in the the Confederations cup in 2017.

Other than Bayern Munich, how many times has a German team won the European cup/Champions League?

cyberman said:
That’s only because of players like Lewa playing for Bayern. A player who should have won the Ballon Dor
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The year before Lewa joined Bayern, Bayern finished 19 points ahead of Dortmund, so not sure how Lewa joining Bayern suddenly made a difference in them winning the Bundesliga.
 
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