Lionel Messi | PSG Watch

[Bebestation]

No one has ever answered my question about who Messi should have joined in his prime that wouldn't be a step down from Barcelona on almost all metrics? And also the fact that Barcelona wouldn't sell him at any cost. Which would mean he would have to run down his contract in his prime which probably wouldn't happen.

Barcelona after Xavi and Iniesta would have been a perfect time to go to Man City in 2016 to join Pep Guardiola, hell even earlier to Bayern Munich.

Can you answer my Question?

Why is it a good time to leave Real Madrid after winning hattrick of CL's to a club like Juventus and back again to Manchester United at the age he is now - never mind how old Messi was in 2016?

 

[Zehner]

No, I care about people pointing out how well Ronaldo has settled v Messi for about 100 pages now only for stats to be thrown out as if we aren’t watching the games themselves. It’s undeniable who has had the better season so far so it’s disingenuous at best to argue otherwise at this stage.
Maybe Messi will pick up, maybe he won’t but having almost half of his attacking stats against RBL and Bruges suddenly brought up doesn’t anything worthwhile to the conversation.
He has 6 goal contributions in France. Not good, not great. 5 of those came in 2 games. It’s a superficial comparison that doesn’t hold up to any scrutiny.

Undeniable? That's nonsense. The bar for Ronaldo is so much lower than it is for Messi. All he needs to do is score. Whether or not he was anonymous for the remainder of the game is irrelevant to his following. You already see it in here that people who support Messi in this discussion already turn on him and criticize his performances. That's not happening vice versa. So let's not forget Ronaldo plays as a striker and is by position supposed to have better G+A stats than Messi, yet he still only narrowly edges him in this department while being blown out of water in terms of other attacking stats - even in this season in which Messi's overall contribution has dropped by a landslide.

In the end, this all still boils down to the fact that Messi completely defied the odds over more than a decade by keeping u in terms of goals and assists with a all out target striker despite playing in a much deeper position. Criticize Messi for his season, I'm completely with you there, but these comparisons are apple and oranges and have been for the whole time. It is absolutely ridiculous that Messi still has a higher goal density than Cristiano who's one of the most productive strikers to ever play the game despite playing in a position from which he is far less likely to score.

 

[NasirTimothy]

No, I care about people pointing out how well Ronaldo has settled v Messi for about 100 pages now only for stats to be thrown out as if we aren’t watching the games themselves. It’s undeniable who has had the better season so far so it’s disingenuous at best to argue otherwise at this stage.
Maybe Messi will pick up, maybe he won’t but having almost half of his attacking stats against RBL and Bruges suddenly brought up doesn’t anything worthwhile to the conversation.
He has 6 goal contributions in France. Not good, not great. 5 of those came in 2 games. It’s a superficial comparison that doesn’t hold up to any scrutiny.

it’s really not, but this is not a discussion for this thread.

 

[Gehrman]

@Bebestation

Messi had a brilliant season after iniesta retired. Going to Bayern in his prime makes no sense and bayern would fork up his transfer fee and wages anyway. I'm not even sure Man City would in 2016 and Barca wouldn't sell him anyway.

Ronaldo left because he didn't feel appreciated by Perez after the 3 peat and demanded a pay raise which Perez wouldn't do while he was chasing Neymar. Juve offered what Ronaldo wanted so that's why that happened and he got to leave on a high. Going to Man Utd is admirable but he left a struggling Juventus as well that barely made top 4 after they were used to winning the league every season. It's very fair respect that the fact that Ronaldo ages well. I think Messi will be going to the MLS when his contract with PSG expires.

 

[Lord SInister]

Undeniable? That's nonsense. The bar for Ronaldo is so much lower than it is for Messi. All he needs to do is score. Whether or not he was anonymous for the remainder of the game is irrelevant to his following. You already see it in here that people who support Messi in this discussion already turn on him and criticize his performances. That's not happening vice versa. So let's not forget Ronaldo plays as a striker and is by position supposed to have better G+A stats than Messi, yet he still only narrowly edges him in this department while being blown out of water in terms of other attacking stats - even in this season in which Messi's overall contribution has dropped by a landslide.

In the end, this all still boils down to the fact that Messi completely defied the odds over more than a decade by keeping u in terms of goals and assists with a all out target striker despite playing in a much deeper position. Criticize Messi for his season, I'm completely with you there, but these comparisons are apple and oranges and have been for the whole time. It is absolutely ridiculous that Messi still has a higher goal density than Cristiano who's one of the most productive strikers to ever play the game despite playing in a position from which he is far less likely to score.

Go to United forum, you will see many who are against Cristiano in starting eleven . So it is not like United forum doesn't have United fans who criticize him. We have plenty of them.

I personally do not think Cristiano is a problem for us, we brought him to score goals and win us games. He can sit whole match in chair near sideline and than score a winner late in the game. I am happy.

 

[Lord SInister]

Barcelona after Xavi and Iniesta would have been a perfect time to go to Man City in 2016 to join Pep Guardiola, hell even earlier to Bayern Munich.

Can you answer my Question?

Why is it a good time to leave Real Madrid after winning hattrick of CL's to a club like Juventus and back again to Manchester United at the age he is now - never mind how old Messi was in 2016?

So than Messi detractors would go, see Messi leaving Barcelona after Xavi Iniesta left, and went again to Pep to play in farmer's league Bundesliga or super rich City in a comfortable set up.

Messi detractors who use he played in a system outside of Barca, will always use it against him. If Messi was performing well in Ligue 1, the comments would have been "it is only a farmer's league". I am sure, you would be the one to say that.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Early last season is probably the first time I've seen Messi has a dip in form/output over a period of time.

While this season is probably the first time I've seen Messi has noticable drop on his overall performance level.

I mean, 3 motm from 15 games this season, as compared to last season when he has 24 motm from 41 games, is quite a difference.

Even dribbling, he only has avg 1.4 dribble per game in the league (and 2.8 in CL). While last season he has around 4.5 in all competitions.

He is probably no longer among the elite goalscorer/dribbler/performer due to his age. But maybe, maybe by turn of the year, when later stage of competitions kicks in, he would somehow find back the motivation to perform again. But he would be approaching 35 by then too.

 

[Lord SInister]

Early last season is probably the first time I've seen Messi has a dip in form/output in a period of time.

While this season is probably the first time I've seen Messi has noticable drop on his overall performance level.

I mean, 3 motm from 15 games this season, as compared to last season when he has 24 motm from 41 games, is quite a difference.

Even dribbling, he only has avg 1.4 dribble per game in the league (and 2.8 in CL). While last season he has around 4.5 in all competitions.

He is probably no longer among the elite goalscorer/dribbler/performer due to his age. But maybe, maybe by turn of the year, when later stage of competitions kicks in, he would somehow find back the motivation to perform again. But he would be approaching 35 by then too.

I do not think it has anything to do with age, more to do with his motivation and fitness(he has seriously not been himself since that Copa semifinal, and yet had another ridiculous foul on him against Venezuela).

 

[Bebestation]

Haha, pulled apart your weak hypothesis there. This is nothing to do with ‘seeing how they perform for one day somewhere else in the CL’ (though Zlatan is 10th all time in CL goals so I don’t know how you can say he’s not doing it in the CL).

The point is that Zlatan has performed well in about 7 different leagues and has over 30 trophies. That doesn’t make him better than someone who performed well in one or two leagues but is actually a superior player…..

So Zlatan didn't even win the best trophy available - yet we should go and judge him purely on his ability to play well in different leagues!! UMM no, he failed as a player because he failed to get the best trophy available to him, showing that even if he was adaptable - that he wasn't good enough.

However, Messi and Ronaldo did it, winning all things that were available to them - rightfully regarded as two of the greatest players of all time; but what? Ronaldo was also adaptable to all these different leagues nearly changing every 4 years, playing for different clubs, playing against different styles of opposition for full seasons - absolutely destroying them whilst winning top trophies for them too.

If Zlatan did win CL's like Messi and Ronaldo did - you really think he would be valued as minimal as he does now? The guy would have been regarded as a GOAT! Playing beautiful football, doing it for different clubs in different leagues, being consistent and Also winning everything that was available to him like the CL!

The guy could have won CL'S for his Italian teams, Spanish Team, English team and be regarded as different quality of player - hell even maybe even winning something for PSG

 

[Zehner]

Go to United forum, you will see many who are against Cristiano in starting eleven . So it is not like United forum doesn't have United fans who criticize him. We have plenty of them.

I personally do not think Cristiano is a problem for us, we brought him to score goals and win us games. He can sit whole match in chair near sideline and than score a winner late in the game. I am happy.

I know, but they're typically not in this thread. Don't think he's a problem either. Just playing in a rather dysfunctional team. That will have effects on all players, even the very best. That truth just doesn't work with the narrative of Cristiano/Messi being one man armies, carrying their team etc.

Truth is, both players have profitted immensely from playing in very good teams like few others had the privilege. And truth is also that both are incredibly good players in their own right. But like it or not, they were always dependent on the team. And since their teams detoriated in terms of quality, so did their perceived levels of performances.

Of course the real fan boys will only accept that dynamic for their respective antagonist, not their own hero.

 

[Bebestation]

So than Messi detractors would go, see Messi leaving Barcelona after Xavi Iniesta left, and went again to Pep to play in farmer's league Bundesliga or super rich City in a comfortable set up.

Messi detractors who use he played in a system outside of Barca, will always use it against him. If Messi was performing well in Ligue 1, the comments would have been "it is only a farmer's league". I am sure, you would be the one to say that.

As is your excuse is that the guy has gotten old after just winning the Balón D'or literally just a few months after the Copa america and then suddenly he has gotten too old for Ligue 1

 

[Lord SInister]

As is your excuse is that the guy has gotten old after just winning the Balón D'or literally just a few months after the Copa america and then suddenly he has gotten too old for Ligue 1 Haha

I did not said he is getting old, it was RedRonaldo, for me Messi's issue is he is not fit physically currently and does not have the same motivation. And that is entirely his own fault, and not someone else's.

 

[JPRouve]

As is your excuse is that the guy has gotten old after just winning the Balón D'or literally just a few months after the Copa america and then suddenly he has gotten too old for Ligue 1

Off topic but the bolded part always amazes me, half french-half spanish.

 

[Bebestation]

I did not said he is getting old, it was RedRonaldo, for me Messi's issue is he is not fit physically currently and does not have the same motivation. And that is entirely his own fault, and not someone else's.

Why some of us like to see players outside of their comfort zone - which can be both for the club you play for just as much as the clubs you play against.

 

[Gehrman]

As is your excuse is that the guy has gotten old after just winning the Balón D'or literally just a few months after the Copa america and then suddenly he has gotten too old for Ligue 1

Messi prime ended in 2019. It could be argued before that. His last ballon D'or win was his weakest ever. He had a slow start in his last season as well. He might pick up his form later on, but there is no denying that he's been underwhelming at PSG so far.

 

[Lord SInister]

Why some of us like to see players outside of their comfort zone - which can be both for the club you play for just as much as the clubs you play against.

Ofcourse, you are free to judge players based on your opinion and criteria. I am sure if Messi starts performing well in Ligue 1 and win CL, it will still be held against him because he is not playing in the greatest league ever called EPL.

 

[Wolf1992]

No because he was never doing things on a CL basis

Neither did Ronaldo Nazario aside from that Old Trafford night.

So what?

 

[Wolf1992]

True, like proving yourself away from a specific league/system which only one of them has done many times.

Judging by that logic then Otamendi is better than Beckenbauer and Maldini, and De Bruyne is better than Scholes.

What a terrible way to examine a player, thank god barely anybody uses that metric, which is why Messi has 7 Ballon D'ors.

 

[Gehrman]

Judging by that logic then Otamendi is better than Beckenbauer and Maldini, and De Bruyne is better than Scholes.

What a terrible way to examine a player, thank god barely anybody uses that metric, which is why Messi has 7 Ballon D'ors.

I think they use that argument applied to the greatest, but actually most of the greatest players are famous for their achievements for one club. Maradonna himself did not consider his stint at Barcelona as succesfull and couldn't wait to get out of there and they couldn't wait to get rid of him due to his lack of professionalism and his mainly remembred for his career at Napoli and his world cup win. Di Stefano is largely remembered for his Real Madrid stint. Pelé spent his entire prime at Santos. Cryuff is mainly celebrated for his Ajax stint, but to be fair did a good job at Barcelona as well however for people who love stats he didn't score much there and win very much at all.

Yeah Beckenbaur was a one club man and so was Müller.

But I think what is forgotten in this is the context. Messi is a La Mazia product and Barcelona became as big as any club in the world under Guardiola. He never had any reason to leave and I do believe that Messi geniuenly had loyalty to Barcelona which is a stupid thing to beat him over the head with on top of the fact he never had any good reason to leave untill he declined and the team became mediocre.

 

[Daysleeper]

So..

Cristiano Ronaldo is at 14 G+A in 16 --> GOAT
Messi is at 10 G+A in 14 --> finished and never was that good

You guys are amazing

Oh and just a friendly reminder: There's more to football than goals and assists.

Moreover, I wonder why you guys are allowed to bring this discussion to this thread. Probably just goes to show how biased this forum is towards a certain player, especially since he rejoined the club.

seriously

 

[Wolf1992]

Undeniable? That's nonsense. The bar for Ronaldo is so much lower than it is for Messi. All he needs to do is score. Whether or not he was anonymous for the remainder of the game is irrelevant to his following. You already see it in here that people who support Messi in this discussion already turn on him and criticize his performances. That's not happening vice versa. So let's not forget Ronaldo plays as a striker and is by position supposed to have better G+A stats than Messi, yet he still only narrowly edges him in this department while being blown out of water in terms of other attacking stats - even in this season in which Messi's overall contribution has dropped by a landslide.

In the end, this all still boils down to the fact that Messi completely defied the odds over more than a decade by keeping u in terms of goals and assists with a all out target striker despite playing in a much deeper position. Criticize Messi for his season, I'm completely with you there, but these comparisons are apple and oranges and have been for the whole time. It is absolutely ridiculous that Messi still has a higher goal density than Cristiano who's one of the most productive strikers to ever play the game despite playing in a position from which he is far less likely to score.

Problem with current Cristiano is that if he doesn't score, there is a sense that he was completely useless the whole match.

His game against Serbia in Lisbon was probably the worse i remember from him in international football (worse than the 0-4 against Germany in 2014 WC and the loss against Belgium in the last Euro).
Serbian defenders were drinking tea while defending against him, i don't remember him winning a single duel the whole game, and we are talking about Serbia not France,Germany, Spain,England, or Italy... somehow he wasn't a threat at all against serbian defense, however he could have gotten away with it had he scored a tap-in/bounce or a penalty in the last minute...but he didn't, so he couldn't make up that piss poor individual performance.

 

[cyberman]

Ofcourse, you are free to judge players based on your opinion and criteria. I am sure if Messi starts performing well in Ligue 1 and win CL, it will still be held against him because he is not playing in the greatest league ever called EPL.

Playing in weaker leagues has always been held against good players. It’s why big players move to big teams, they don’t stay in France etc for a reason. It’s just that PSG have happened to play in France that’s unfortunate for Messi. Nobody watches the league and nobody really counts it’s domestic accomplishments. Hence the complete lack of buzz for Lille.
It’s ok to be sarky against the EPL is the best mindset but it really does apply here, France is approaching being the 5th best league in Europe for feck sake. If Messi is struggling to score there then God knows what he would look like in England. Maybe he can match the mighty Depay but only time will tell

 

[Sayros]

My god, there's a thread dedicated to Messi vs CR7 and yet some of you just cannot help yourselves, it's incredible.

 

[Wolf1992]

I think they use that argument applied to the greatest, but actually most of the greatest players are famous for their achievements for one club. Maradonna himself did not consider his stint at Barcelona as succesfull and couldn't wait to get out of there and they couldn't wait to get rid of him due to his lack of professionalism and his mainly remembred for his career at Napoli and his world cup win. Di Stefano is largely remembered for his Real Madrid stint. Pelé spent his entire prime at Santos. Cryuff is mainly celebrated for his Ajax stint, but to be fair did a good job at Barcelona as well however for people who love stats he didn't score much there and win very much at all.

Yeah Beckenbaur was a one club man and so was Müller.

But I think what is forgotten in this is the context. Messi is a La Mazia product and Barcelona became as big as any club in the world under Guardiola. He never had any reason to leave and I do believe that Messi geniuenly had loyalty to Barcelona which is a stupid thing to beat him over the head with on top of the fact he never had any good reason to leave untill he declined and the team became mediocre.

Cristiano needs stats to be compared with Messi, he has no other way, cause everyone know that Messi is more talented and a better player. Don't forget that.

Not everything can be stats...according to stats Harry Kane is as good as Henry and Van Basten, that's the conclusion that my grandma (who never watched a single football match in her entire life) could say after reading Career Statistics in Wikipedia.

 

[Gehrman]

Cristiano needs stats to be compared with Messi, he has no other way, cause everyone know that Messi is more talented and a better player. Don't forget that.

Not everything can be stats...according to stats Harry Kane is as good as Henry and Van Basten, that's the conclusion that my grandma (who never watched a single football match in her entire life) could say after reading Career Statistics in Wikipedia.

Stat do matter, it's just not the whole story. Otherwise it's Lampard>>>>Xavi, Zidane, Iniesta, etc.

Or Lukkaku><drogpa

 

[Daysleeper]

Barcelona after Xavi and Iniesta would have been a perfect time to go to Man City in 2016 to join Pep Guardiola, hell even earlier to Bayern Munich.

Can you answer my Question?

Why is it a good time to leave Real Madrid after winning hattrick of CL's to a club like Juventus and back again to Manchester United at the age he is now - never mind how old Messi was in 2016?

Ronaldo’s decision to leave Madrid (because he wanted more money and flo said no) was easily the worst of his career. He’s been getting bounced by some very underwhelming teams in CL and Juventus had their lowest trophy count in a decade, and now united are doing worse across the board since he joined.
I’m not even blaming Ronaldo for the lows Juventus had with him or the mediocre/below expectation season United is having right now but him leaving Madrid had everything to do with money and nothing to do with the bs “he wants a bigger challenge” crap.

messi leaving right after Barca winning a treble in 2015 makes no sense. He wanted to leave last season to city but Barca blocked it

 

[Wolf1992]

Playing in weaker leagues has always been held against good players. It’s why big players move to big teams, they don’t stay in France etc for a reason. It’s just that PSG have happened to play in France that’s unfortunate for Messi. Nobody watches the league and nobody really counts it’s domestic accomplishments. Hence the complete lack of buzz for Lille.
It’s ok to be sarky against the EPL is the best mindset but it really does apply here, France is approaching being the 5th best league in Europe for feck sake. If Messi is struggling to score there then God knows what he would look like in England. Maybe he can match the mighty Depay but only time will tell

That doesn't mean anything.

Tielemans who has been great in PL was a massive flop for Monaco, Emmanuel Dennis who has been great for Watford was a total flop in Bundesliga, and Kante never looked as good as he did in PL(Leicester and Chelsea) when he was in Ligue 1(almost gets relegated with Caen) and played in Ligue 2 before that.

People need to stop overrating the mighty PL, there are many reasons why a player might not do well in a different league, other than " he is shit".

Can imagine you as a scout watching Kante in Ligue 1, and saying :
"This Kante guy isn't doing much in this Ligue 1 farmers league, how the hell is he gonna perform in PL... don't want it, next"

 

[gibers]

Barcelona after Xavi and Iniesta would have been a perfect time to go to Man City in 2016 to join Pep Guardiola, hell even earlier to Bayern Munich.

Can you answer my Question?

Why is it a good time to leave Real Madrid after winning hattrick of CL's to a club like Juventus and back again to Manchester United at the age he is now - never mind how old Messi was in 2016?

It was a good time because Florentino didnt want to pay him more money. Simple. Florentino went back on an agreement and Ronaldo felt undervalued. If he didn't CR would still be a Madrid.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Not everything can be stats...according to stats Harry Kane is as good as Henry and Van Basten, that's the conclusion that my grandma (who never watched a single football match in her entire life) could say after reading Career Statistics in Wikipedia.

I get the gist of what you're trying to say, but plenty of people who prefer Messi argue that his superior qualities are reflected in the quantification of his performance.

 

[Bole Top]

Messi prime ended in 2019. It could be argued before that. His last ballon D'or win was his weakest ever. He had a slow start in his last season as well. He might pick up his form later on, but there is no denying that he's been underwhelming at PSG so far.

love how this part is being ignored just because he's at different club now. same time last year - 4 league goals only, also scored less in CL. and that was in his "comfort zone". he's obviously starting the season slower and slower, regardless of the club or manager.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

He had understandable emotional difficulties in the last two seasons. Didn't want to play for Barcelona the first one, probably didn't really want to play for PSG the second one.

 

[Sayros]

He had understandable emotional difficulties in the last two seasons. Didn't want to play for Barcelona the first one, probably didn't really want to play for PSG the second one.

Let's see how much he's going to want to play against you guys in February.

 

[Daysleeper]

He had understandable emotional difficulties in the last two seasons. Didn't want to play for Barcelona the first one, probably didn't really want to play for PSG the second one.

finally a sympathetic post from Iker about Messi

 

[11101]

Cristiano needs stats to be compared with Messi, he has no other way, cause everyone know that Messi is more talented and a better player. Don't forget that.

Not everything can be stats...according to stats Harry Kane is as good as Henry and Van Basten, that's the conclusion that my grandma (who never watched a single football match in her entire life) could say after reading Career Statistics in Wikipedia.

You're talking about the two all time stat kings here. Both are them are all about goals, assists, minutes per goal, seconds per hair flick and other nonsense like that. Take the stats out of it and there have been better players than either of them.

 

[Gehrman]

You're talking about the two all time stat kings here. Both are them are all about goals, assists, minutes per goal, seconds per hair flick and other nonsense like that. Take the stats out of it and there have been better players than either of them.

Depends on which stats really. Obviously since they have been forwards in their primes goals and assists matter, but Messi was still a freak before he became one of the best goalscorers ever. Even if he'd scored half the goals he did, he'd still be considered one of the best ever just not the greatest which many now think is the case. Same with Pelé. 2006/2007 Ronaldo was pretty awesome as well.

 

[NasirTimothy]

So Zlatan didn't even win the best trophy available - yet we should go and judge him purely on his ability to play well in different leagues!! UMM no, he failed as a player because he failed to get the best trophy available to him, showing that even if he was adaptable - that he wasn't good enough.

However, Messi and Ronaldo did it, winning all things that were available to them - rightfully regarded as two of the greatest players of all time; but what? Ronaldo was also adaptable to all these different leagues nearly changing every 4 years, playing for different clubs, playing against different styles of opposition for full seasons - absolutely destroying them whilst winning top trophies for them too.

If Zlatan did win CL's like Messi and Ronaldo did - you really think he would be valued as minimal as he does now? The guy would have been regarded as a GOAT! Playing beautiful football, doing it for different clubs in different leagues, being consistent and Also winning everything that was available to him like the CL!

The guy could have won CL'S for his Italian teams, Spanish Team, English team and be regarded as different quality of player - hell even maybe even winning something for PSG

Ok, so Clarence Seedorf is the GOAT midfielder then. Because he performed well in multiple leagues and also won the Champions League with two different teams from different countries. That makes him better than Xavi, Iniesta and Pirlo according to your theory.

I’m sorry, but your thinking is clearly flawed.

 

[Gehrman]

Ok, so Clarence Seedorf is the GOAT midfielder then. Because he performed well in multiple leagues and also won the Champions League with two different teams from different countries. That makes him better than Xavi, Iniesta and Pirlo according to your theory.

I’m sorry, but your thinking is clearly flawed.

Seerdorf won the league + CL(4 total) with 3 different teams in 3 different leagues. Goat midfielder. Not just better than Xavi, Iniesta and Pirlo, but Zidane, Platini and Bobby Charlton as well.

 

[genardk]

Exactly.

Coutinho at PL vs La Liga
Forlan at La Liga vs PL
Shevchenko at Serie A vs PL
Hazard at PL vs La Liga
Paul Ince and Gascoigne in PL Vs Serie A
Veron at Serie A vs PL
Jerome Boateng in Bundesliga vs PL
Soldado in La Liga vs PL

It's just such a valuable way of rating a player in my mind at least. You get to see players outside of their potential comfort zone for a whole 365 days in a row - rather than just seeing how they perform for one day somewhere else in the CL.

Yeah, according to that logic, Totti, Maldini, Pirlo, Xavi, Iniesta, Del Piero, Baggio, Baresi, Puyol, Shearer, Beckenbauer, Muller, Nesta, Ramos etc. are all unproven

Why do not we actually focus on the tangibles rather than the hypothetical assumptions?? like the fact that Messi is a world class playmaker and a dribbler and Ronaldo lacks all these skills? Why can't he get out of his comfort zone and start running the game as a playmaker or dribbling past players instead of staying in his usual comfort zone, the penalty box? I guess, it is hard for him to leave his comfort zone after so long. yet he is compared to Messi as if they are equivalent in terms of what they do on the pitch..

 

[NasirTimothy]

Seerdorf won the league + CL(4 total) with 3 different teams in 3 different leagues. Goat midfielder. Not just better than Xavi, Iniesta and Pirlo, but Zidane, Platini and Bobby Charlton as well.

Apologies yes, I missed out the fact that he also won the CL with Ajax (!!!!)

 

[genardk]

You're talking about the two all time stat kings here. Both are them are all about goals, assists, minutes per goal, seconds per hair flick and other nonsense like that. Take the stats out of it and there have been better players than either of them.

Messi is still a GOAT level playmaker and dribbler without goals.. He will still be regarded as among the greatest ever without many goals just like Xavi, Zidane etc.
Sorry, but, Ronaldo without goals offers almost nothing else..