Lionel Messi | PSG Watch

Weird post nothing funny about having R9 over Cristiano.

It's a bit arbitrary.

The post says, "on pure talent he was a level above Cristiano, and was only held back by his injuries."

That may be true. But the thing is, he was held back by his injuries. It happened. So where do you draw the line between "what could have been" and "what actually was"?
 
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Ronaldo is a more limited player than Messi but I don't know why people are pretending that he was a poacher who couldn't do anything with the ball other than tap it in.
He's much more than that without a shred of a doubt. There's a reason why he's (rightly) in GOAT debates. Anyone who doesn't acknowledge him as one of the greatest footballers ever and/or downplay his achievements is either biased or should watch another sport.

I'm personally irked by people who obviously never watched the previous greats and try to hamfist their opinion through meaningless stats or amount of trophies.
 
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After a lot of searching, found this article from 2014. Messi's peak was not great, it was alien.

2010-14: G+A
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xG vs G - finishing efficiency
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2010-14: long shots
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Unassisted goals:

morris-feature-messi-41.png

Take-ons:
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Through balls - this one is the most ridiculous

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FdrI68JUAAAAM7R





FdvXHHYaMAAB6YT
 
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Yeah that 113 goals+assists record will never be touched.
Neither will his 91 goals record nobody over the past 20 years has gotten 70, and Muller-aside, nobody has ever topped 75 goals in a calender year. To do that while simultaneously providing over 20 assists is just insane.
 
It's a bit arbitrary.

The post says, "on pure talent he was a level above Cristiano, and was only held back by his injuries."

That may be true. But the thing is, he was held back by his injuries. It happened. So where do you draw the line between "what could have been" and "what actually was"?

Ronaldo for Barca and Inter arguably peaked as high as it gets. He didn't get as much goals as Cristiano in his best seasons but teams scored much less goals in those times anyway. As unstoppable as he was in the 90s, I think it is a legit argument that he peaked higher than CR7. Longevity obviously goes to Cristiano, though.
 
Ronaldo for Barca and Inter arguably peaked as high as it gets. He didn't get as much goals as Cristiano in his best seasons but teams scored much less goals in those times anyway. As unstoppable as he was in the 90s, I think it is a legit argument that he peaked higher than CR7. Longevity obviously goes to Cristiano, though.

Id say that Brazilian Ronaldo peaked above Messi as well.

When you look at the complexity of the Serie A Brazilian Ronaldo played in is why I personally don’t rate Messi as much as others.

Messi played in a 2 team league that was hardly competitive - was arguably the best league only in the year’s Barcelona turned to the best team of all time.
 
Ronaldo is a more limited player than Messi but I don't know why people are pretending that he was a poacher who couldn't do anything with the ball other than tap it in.

Its just fanboys trolling or people without clue about football who don't recognize Ronaldo's overall attributes which in his prime were good and pretty balanced. He's not just in the godtier in stuff like playmaking, dribbling and passing, but it doesn't mean that he wasn't actually good in those attributes. He is in the godtier in heading and goalscoring though. Very strong athletic attributes as well. If Ronnnie hadn't played in the same era as Messi he might have had 8 or 9 Ballon D'ors if he had kept the same level. Any such player is a all time great.
 
Messi’s all god tier dribbling happened in the La Liga.

I watched Messi’s best CL goals and the only one he dribbled like Maradona was against Real Madrid which was no surprise.

It’s why I will never believe that he would be viewed the same if he spent his career in the PL or even. Prime Serie A.
 
Messi’s all god tier dribbling happened in the La Liga.

I watched Messi’s best CL goals and the only one he dribbled like Maradona was against Real Madrid which was no surprise.

It’s why I will never believe that he would be viewed the same if he spent his career in the PL or even. Prime Serie A.

Messi has a higher non-La liga goal contributions per minute than Ronaldo, I think.

Highest dribbling proficiency in CL history, but wouldn't have been able to do it in PL? Come on, now.
 
Messi’s all god tier dribbling happened in the La Liga.

I watched Messi’s best CL goals and the only one he dribbled like Maradona was against Real Madrid which was no surprise.

It’s why I will never believe that he would be viewed the same if he spent his career in the PL or even. Prime Serie A.
I'm sorry but based on your posts in this thread you come across as incredibly thick.
 
Messi’s all god tier dribbling happened in the La Liga.

I watched Messi’s best CL goals and the only one he dribbled like Maradona was against Real Madrid which was no surprise.

It’s why I will never believe that he would be viewed the same if he spent his career in the PL or even. Prime Serie A.

Us doctors already have a shoddy public opinion as it is. Please don’t make it worse for us.

Do you realise that you’ve gone away from saying one player is better than the other, but now insisting on making out as if Messi isn’t even in the top echelon.
 
I'm sorry but any stats this season will need to have the considered thought process that he's playing in France.

Not La Liga or the Premier League.
 
I'm sorry but based on your posts in this thread you come across as incredibly thick.

Messi broke the CL record for most completed dribbles in a match against us when we were the best defensive side in the world in 2008. It's why I have him on ignore, he repeats the same stupid argument forever. Also he makes the case that his only "Maradona" goal outside of La liga was vs Real Madrid in the CL. It was still against a fecking La Liga side, one the best in the world against Mourinho's Real Madrid. The idea that the Maradona scored the goal of the century all the time in Seria A is pure myth. The mythical player who dribbles the entire defense all the time and scores has never actually happened, but it's something that only a few players are able to do a few times in their career. Messi and Maradonna being 2 of them.
 
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I'm sure if he came to play for City in the Premier league a few years ago, and smashed it (like Haaland is now), they'd be criticising him for choosing City/the easier "financially doped" option as well. No win situation, really.
 
I'm sure if he came to play for City in the Premier league a few years ago, and smashed it (like Haaland is now), they'd be criticising him for choosing City/the easier "financially doped" option as well. No win situation, really.

Because the guy would only pick Guardiola and City over any other team.

just built for one team :lol:
 

Is this Argentina? Literally the club he grew up with just like Barcelona all his life :lol:

Anyway, enjoy him - no one is changing their mind on him!

Just glad the myth that he had aged finished and showed that he was just adapting to Ligue bloody 1 after winning the Balon Dor for winning the copa America.

Now he is back in form the aged excuse has gone.

Fantastic player and one of my GOAT’s but I value a players mentality than just pure technicality especially a technicality linked only to South Americans playing in their equivalent of an European country in the La Liga.
 
I agree with you completely. Utterly absurd to say Cristiano’s peak was above Maradona. He wins in terms of longevity and efficiency, his achievements are huge in the game, but Maradona was a level above. Personally I think Luis Ronaldo at his peak was a level above Cristiano too. Certainly, with that controversy aside, Messi, Pele and Maradona stand alone as the greatest three players ever. For me greatness encapsulates everything, and Ronaldo lacked that genius with the ball that the other three had.

My personal list in order is:

1. Maradona
2. Pele
3. Messi
4. Luis Ronaldo
5. Cristiano Ronaldo
6. Romario
7. Ronaldinho

After that the margins are so fine that it’s hard to separate the next best 20 or so players. I just feel those players had something extra special that is almost impossible to replicate, and their peaks were all so extremely staggering as to stand them apart. Romario isn’t one that gets mentioned so high on people’s lists usually, but for me he is the best finisher of all time, and had a variety of finishing and explosiveness that I haven’t ever seen replicated.

Ronaldinho is the greatest pure entertainer I have ever seen. Played with a joy that you just don’t see anywhere else. His ball control, eccentricity, flair, dribbling were other worldly at his peak, truly magical an untouchable. Maybe the player I most enjoyed watching in my lifetime.

Luis Ronaldo was just an absolutely force of nature, it was a massive shame that his knees were destroyed, but prior to that I have never seen a more complete forward who was a one man forward line. He was just terrifying. If he hadn’t had the injury problems he did, I don’t think it is remotely controversial that he would’ve racked up Messi/Ronaldo numbers over his career. On pure talent he was a level above Cristiano, and was only held back by his injuries.

After that there are so many players that I have loved watching down the years that are hard to place. Michael Laudrup was an absurdly gifted and lavishly talented footballer, who was like poetry in motion. Platini, Cryuff, Baggio, Rivaldo, Stoichkov, Van Basten, Rijkaard, Matthaus all absurdly good (not saying all the same level) and whom I all revered growing up from my Dad waxing lyrical about them, or players who I had the privelege of watching at their peak. Bergkamp was another player who I always admired as more of an artist of the game than the sort of robotic, efficient machine that gets the plaudits these days. I have always been drawn to appreciating players who play with beauty as much as they do ruthless efficiency. That’s why Cristiano will never be above Maradona or the other three I mentioned. He was brilliant at doing everything with incredible precision and efficiency, but he was also selfish and lacked that magical x-factor. He needed service far more than the others, who were all able to do it by themselves, against whatever odds.
I think in such lists, Beckenbauer is so underrated. I would have him in the 4th of the list, and the only European player potentially sitting on the same table as the popular PMM top 3.
Dude has won everything in football (club and country), was probably the most all rounded and technically gifted non attacking player (who was extremely good at attacking also). That he was THE player (as a defender) ahead of that era’s CR7 (Muller), is a testiment of his greatness.
 
That may be true. But the thing is, he was held back by his injuries. It happened. So where do you draw the line between "what could have been" and "what actually was"?
To add to this: How much did R9's lifestyle impact his injuries? Post-2002 (26 years old) was he as diligent as he could have been?
 
I think in such lists, Beckenbauer is so underrated. I would have him in the 4th of the list, and the only European player potentially sitting on the same table as the popular PMM top 3.
Dude has won everything in football (club and country), was probably the most all rounded and technically gifted non attacking player (who was extremely good at attacking also). That he was THE player (as a defender) ahead of that era’s CR7 (Muller), is a testiment of his greatness.

Yeah in this day and age where people are obsessed with games/goals/assists ratios it might seem mental to some that Müller(candidate for the best goalscorer ever) wasn't even considered the best player at his club. A sweeper was.
 
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He's much more than that without a shred of a doubt. There's a reason why he's (rightly) in GOAT debates. Anyone who doesn't acknowledge him as one of the greatest footballers ever and/or downplay his achievements is either biased or should watch another sport.

I'm personally irked by people who obviously never watched the previous greats and try to hamfist their opinion through meaningless stats or amount of trophies.
Funny given that's exactly what people do with him.
 
Yeah in this day and age where people are obsessed with games/goals/assists rations it might seem mental to some that Müller(candidate for the best goalscorer ever) wasn't even considered the best player at his club. A sweeper was.
Wouldn't be the case today that's for sure
 
Is this Argentina? Literally the club he grew up with just like Barcelona all his life :lol:

Anyway, enjoy him - no one is changing their mind on him!

Just glad the myth that he had aged finished and showed that he was just adapting to Ligue bloody 1 after winning the Balon Dor for winning the copa America.

Now he is back in form the aged excuse has gone.

Fantastic player and one of my GOAT’s but I value a players mentality than just pure technicality especially a technicality linked only to South Americans playing in their equivalent of an European country in the La Liga.
Yes, he should have played for Uruguay because he didn´t grow up there, fair enough.
 
Yes, he should have played for Uruguay because he didn´t grow up there, fair enough.

Or chosen to play for Spain where he hardly would have made them worse and likely have had that WC to his name. But yeah anyway, Argentina is now that damn comfort zone.
 
Is this Argentina? Literally the club he grew up with just like Barcelona all his life :lol:

Anyway, enjoy him - no one is changing their mind on him!

Just glad the myth that he had aged finished and showed that he was just adapting to Ligue bloody 1 after winning the Balon Dor for winning the copa America.

Now he is back in form the aged excuse has gone.

Fantastic player and one of my GOAT’s but I value a players mentality than just pure technicality especially a technicality linked only to South Americans playing in their equivalent of an European country in the La Liga.

He has visibly aged. It's why his game has slowed down so much. His game is more about vision and passing than anything these days. He's not finished in the sense that he can never produce, he just can't play like a 24 year old Messi for completely natural reasons.
 
He has visibly aged. It's why his game has slowed down so much. His game is more about vision and passing than anything these days. He's not finished in the sense that he can never produce, he just can't play like a 24 year old Messi for completely natural reasons.
But still confortably top 10 players even today.
 
But still confortably top 10 players even today.

Not sure I agree, and you know i'm not a Messi hater. He's too slowed down. I don't think all opposition in Ligue 1 is cannon fodder for PSG, but he has to have some strong perfomances against top clubs for me to have him up there and he only gets the chance once in a while in the CL. His showings are mainly better than last year and some of his assists and passing is world class but I'm not sure I'd have him in the top 10 and im not even sure he is making PSG a better team at this point considering how little off the ball work him, Neymar and Mbappe do. It's still early season anyways and we'll see how it unfolds.
 
Not sure I agree, and you know i'm not a Messi hater. He's too slowed down. I don't think all opposition in Ligue 1 is cannon fodder for PSG, but he has to have some strong perfomances against top clubs for me to have him up there and he only gets the chance once in a while in the CL. His showings are mainly better than last year and some of his assists and passing is world class but I'm not sure I'd have him in the top 10 and im not even sure he is making PSG a better team at this point considering how little off the ball work him, Neymar and Mbappe do. It's still early season anyways and we'll see how it unfolds.
We´ll see in the next couple of months where is he.
 
I agree with you completely. Utterly absurd to say Cristiano’s peak was above Maradona. He wins in terms of longevity and efficiency, his achievements are huge in the game, but Maradona was a level above. Personally I think Luis Ronaldo at his peak was a level above Cristiano too. Certainly, with that controversy aside, Messi, Pele and Maradona stand alone as the greatest three players ever. For me greatness encapsulates everything, and Ronaldo lacked that genius with the ball that the other three had.

My personal list in order is:

1. Maradona
2. Pele
3. Messi
4. Luis Ronaldo
5. Cristiano Ronaldo
6. Romario
7. Ronaldinho

After that the margins are so fine that it’s hard to separate the next best 20 or so players. I just feel those players had something extra special that is almost impossible to replicate, and their peaks were all so extremely staggering as to stand them apart. Romario isn’t one that gets mentioned so high on people’s lists usually, but for me he is the best finisher of all time, and had a variety of finishing and explosiveness that I haven’t ever seen replicated.

Ronaldinho is the greatest pure entertainer I have ever seen. Played with a joy that you just don’t see anywhere else. His ball control, eccentricity, flair, dribbling were other worldly at his peak, truly magical an untouchable. Maybe the player I most enjoyed watching in my lifetime.

Luis Ronaldo was just an absolutely force of nature, it was a massive shame that his knees were destroyed, but prior to that I have never seen a more complete forward who was a one man forward line. He was just terrifying. If he hadn’t had the injury problems he did, I don’t think it is remotely controversial that he would’ve racked up Messi/Ronaldo numbers over his career. On pure talent he was a level above Cristiano, and was only held back by his injuries.

After that there are so many players that I have loved watching down the years that are hard to place. Michael Laudrup was an absurdly gifted and lavishly talented footballer, who was like poetry in motion. Platini, Cryuff, Baggio, Rivaldo, Stoichkov, Van Basten, Rijkaard, Matthaus all absurdly good (not saying all the same level) and whom I all revered growing up from my Dad waxing lyrical about them, or players who I had the

My list:
1. Messi
2. Pele
3. Maradona
4. Cristiano
5. Cruijff
5. Backenbauer
7. Luis Ronaldo

I did not see Pele play but im ranking him based on what people who saw him play say about him (which can be taken with a pinch of salt since overtime myths are created about many footballers).

I rank Cristiano 4th based on the positives of longevity and success, both individual and collective with the negatives of lacking the magic that some of the others on the list have.

When Ronaldo fails to score he has always been considered to have a bad game. Regardless of whether or not he dominates his wing, makes penetrating runs through the box, plays in beautiful crosses, shoots difficult shots that either hit the post or forced a fingertip save and dribbles on long runs beating defenders.

Ronaldo has had over 20 assists twice in his career and has 15 or more in a few other season's. Ronaldo has always had assists and chances created numbers comparable or beyond the Xavi's, Iniestas, Pirlo's, Ribery's, Di Maria's etc. who are all credited with being visionary and creative playmakers.

It is indisputable that he is the greatest aerial player in history and among the very best to ever play when it comes to two-footed ability and long range shooting. His off the ball movement and positioning has been nothing short of elite throughout his forward years having an innate sense of how to read play and pick his placement to dictate passes. He is no lightweight when it comes to dribbling and skill-move goals either.
IReally????:wenger::wenger::lol:
 
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Not sure I agree, and you know i'm not a Messi hater. He's too slowed down. I don't think all opposition in Ligue 1 is cannon fodder for PSG, but he has to have some strong perfomances against top clubs for me to have him up there and he only gets the chance once in a while in the CL. His showings are mainly better than last year and some of his assists and passing is world class but I'm not sure I'd have him in the top 10 and im not even sure he is making PSG a better team at this point considering how little off the ball work him, Neymar and Mbappe do. It's still early season anyways and we'll see how it unfolds.
He is obviously not at his peak but he has been, alongside Neymar, the best at PSG and in the last 2 to 3 games, the best outright. I feel like you may not be a hater but you prefer someone else, maybe Mbappe? (BTW the selfish egomaniac has been quite poor despite his goals) therefore are playing down how good Messi has been thus far.
 
Id say that Brazilian Ronaldo peaked above Messi as well.

When you look at the complexity of the Serie A Brazilian Ronaldo played in is why I personally don’t rate Messi as much as others.

Messi played in a 2 team league that was hardly competitive - was arguably the best league only in the year’s Barcelona turned to the best team of all time.
Completely disagree. I've watched both play and while R9 was a force of nature l, Messi’s pure dribbling and playmaking ability at his peak were extraterrestrial and a level above R9. Messi at his peak also regularly tore apart the best champions league sides so the la liga argument isn't true at all.
 
He is obviously not at his peak but he has been, alongside Neymar, the best at PSG and in the last 2 to 3 games, the best outright. I feel like you may not be a hater but you prefer someone else, maybe Mbappe? (BTW the selfish egomaniac has been quite poor despite his goals) therefore are playing down how good Messi has been thus far.

People who like a player have an idealised image of that player and so set high standards for them - for example, see Fed/Nadal fans talking about their player.
I know this personally - many games where Martial was described as having a great performance I felt he could do more, because I remember his debut start vs Southampton and think he can always deliver a 10/10 dribbling and finishing masterclass. Same with me watching Federer or Messi or Pogba or...
And I think it's the same for @Gehrman with Messi. Having seen and accepted how good he can be, any decline becomes very magnified.
 
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People who like a player have an idealised image of that player and so set high standards for them - for example, see Fed/Nadal fans talking about their player.
I know this personally - many games where Martial was described as having a great performance I felt he could do more, because I remember his debut start vs Southampton and think he can always deliver a 10/10 dribbling and finishing masterclass. Same with me watching Federer or Messi or Pogba or...
And I think it's the same for @Gehrman with Messi. Having seen and accepted how good he can be, any decline becomes very magnified.
Its pure delusion to keep comparing a 35 year old to his 25-30 year old self. We've all seen Messi at his alien level but don't find the decline anything other than normal.
 
Its pure delusion to keep comparing a 35 year old to his 25-30 year old self. We've all seen Messi at his alien level but don't find the decline anything other than normal.

I agree - I think even the 2015 MSN version that was so highly praised wasn't a patch on the peak goalscoring version from earlier.

But also - the loss of pace and explosiveness that @Gehrman talks about is a real thing. It affects everything, not just getting past players - he makes bad decisions about dribbling vs passing because he still hasn't figured out some of the things he can't do. His shots get blocked a lot because everything is one percent slower.
He's started from such a crazy level and technical basics (which Ronaldo doesn't have) that this diminished version can still do damage. But it's hard to imagine 2022 Messi having the same impact on the World cup as 2018 Mbappe or 2006 Zidane, but that's what seems to be the expectation now.
 
To add to this: How much did R9's lifestyle impact his injuries? Post-2002 (26 years old) was he as diligent as he could have been?
He was a party goer and a womaniser. It wasn't just his injury but also his typical Brazilian attitude.
I agree - I think even the 2015 MSN version that was so highly praised wasn't a patch on the peak goalscoring version from earlier.

But also - the loss of pace and explosiveness that @Gehrman talks about is a real thing. It affects everything, not just getting past players - he makes bad decisions about dribbling vs passing because he still hasn't figured out some of the things he can't do. His shots get blocked a lot because everything is one percent slower.
He's started from such a crazy level and technical basics (which Ronaldo doesn't have) that this diminished version can still do damage. But it's hard to imagine 2022 Messi having the same impact on the World cup as 2018 Mbappe or 2006 Zidane, but that's what seems to be the expectation now.
Zidane had one great game at wc 2006 as did Mbappe at wv 2018. So this idea that the named players had some yard stick world cups is nonsensical. Infact before Zidanes great performance vs Brazil, there were calls to drop him.
 
To add to this: How much did R9's lifestyle impact his injuries? Post-2002 (26 years old) was he as diligent as he could have been?

He had a serious injury in his teens, then 2 ACL injuries before 2002. He had osgood-Schattler disease. Lifestyle didn’t help, but the guy was running on dodgy knees after 2002. No wonder he suffered another ACL a few years later