Lionel Messi | PSG Watch

Hoof The Ball said:
Yeah, I think what people don't consider is that Serie A was defensively immense. Unlike now, where marking is largely zonal, back then a lot of it was man-marking and you were duelling with defenders who were relentless and brilliant at shutting individual players down. This is why scoring feats are fewer in those Serie A days. This is the context in which we find Maradona in, and Van Basten, etc. And like has been mentioned, the three foreigner rule meant that talent was spread out across the entire league. You had Van Basten, Effenberg and co, playing for a Fiorentina who lounged in mid-table and sometimes lower.
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Maradonna would have played further forwards these days - probably wide attacker similar to Messi but back in the 80's he would simply have been smashed to bits if he wasnt operating in the midfield space

As for Fiorentina Van Basten never played for them - are you thinking of Batistuta and as for Effenberg he played there two seasons - one season they were relegated and his second season was in seria B so they were not even mid table at the time (the fact that effengerg, batistuta and brian laudrup were there 3 foreigners in Seria B though just reinforces how strong Italian footaball was in the early 90s
 
sun_tzu said:
Maradonna would have played further forwards these days - probably wide attacker similar to Messi but back in the 80's he would simply have been smashed to bits if he wasnt operating in the midfield space

As for Fiorentina Van Basten never played for them - are you thinking of Batistuta and as for Effenberg he played there two seasons - one season they were relegated and his second season was in seria B so they were not even mid table at the time (the fact that effengerg, batistuta and brian laudrup were there 3 foreigners in Seria B though just reinforces how strong Italian footaball was in the early 90s
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God knows why I wrote Van Basten again. I meant Batistuta, of course, and possibly Baiano too.
 
sun_tzu said:
Bit of a tough one to answer as stats were not recorded to the same extent years ago but from what I can see
13 assists in 80 games for argentina
https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/diego-maradona/nationalmannschaft/spieler/8024
79 in 343 games in italy / spain
https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/diego-maradona/leistungsdaten/spieler/8024

No idea from his time in South America
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Transfermarkt is not reliable for assists from that era. Not sure who to for but I know they aren't reliable due how late organs started counting assists.
 
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Isafim said:
Wrong, Pele, Messi and CR7 are the GOATs without question. CR7 is way ahead of Maradona. Cristiano's peak was much higher. He had much more longevity and consistency. And many more achievements. How can you put for a guy who won 5 UCL being top scorer and protagonist, the highest scorer in official games history BELOW Maradona??? This is pointless. The only thing Maradona was superior at was dribbling.
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What?!?! :lol:

What about passing? Free kicks?
 
mshnsh said:
Honestly I don't want to bring the other guy here but the absolute fact is that the relative limitations in Ronaldo's game outside of scoring means he cannot be considered above Maradona. This is despite Ronaldo's longevity and goal output.

Add to this a higher peak and the greatest ever individual world cup campaign and you know why Maradona is amongst the top 3.

That, however, is not to discredit Cristiano who in my books is immediately in the the tier below the 3.
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How about the greatest ever individual UCL campaign by Ronaldo in 13/14? I don't think Maradona had a higher peak
 
Isafim said:
Wrong, Pele, Messi and CR7 are the GOATs without question. CR7 is way ahead of Maradona. Cristiano's peak was much higher. He had much more longevity and consistency. And many more achievements. How can you put for a guy who won 5 UCL being top scorer and protagonist, the highest scorer in official games history BELOW Maradona??? This is pointless. The only thing Maradona was superior at was dribbling.
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Talk about delusion:lol::lol: The general consensus is that Messi, Maradona, and Pelé are the three greatest ever, in any order.

Ronaldo isn't even in the same tier. As far as stating that Ronaldo's peak is better than Maradona's, it's so laughable it's borderline trolling.

In any event, this is a Messi thread and that's what we should be discussing here.

1118 goal contribution now, extending his all time record. And 59 free kick making him the active player with the most freekicks.
 
CruyffMaradonaMessi said:
@Ladron de redcafe

A shame that Messi’s free kick ability declined a lot in the past 2 years. If he had kept going on this front he could have been up there along with the free kick GOAT (Juninho) in terms of free kicks scored.
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He has declined quite a bit but I still expect him to make his way to the top 5 and possibly end up with the 2nd most all time if he racks up a few more. He's a had a lot of near misses over the past year with posts and bars and he's 7 away from 2nd most all time. With a bit better luck, it isn't far fetched to see him 2nd all time:

 
When I look at the internet it says that Ronaldo has more assists than Maradona?
 
Bebestation said:
When I look at the internet it says that Ronaldo has more assists than Maradona?
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The quality and the difficulty of Maradona's assists ought to be taken into consideration. An assist can be something as simple as a square pass to a goal. Average field position dictates what is required to make an assist and therefore re-frames the argument to a degree.
 
Assists weren't recorded before a certain point (because they simply weren't a thing - nobody gave a feck, perhaps * rightly so). Some attempts have been made to record them (for prominent players) but the issue is obviously a lack of available footage.

(* By which I mean definitely. Being second-to-last on the ball frequently has very little to do with genuine creativity/play making ability.)
 
Bebestation said:
When I look at the internet it says that Ronaldo has more assists than Maradona?
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He maybe has but Transfermarkt and whoscored are totally unreliable sources for assists in that era. I'm not actually sure who's the most reliable for tallying assists before the modern era.
 
Isafim said:
IMO Maradona is in conversation with DiStefano and Cruijff. The comparison with Romario is not valid because Romario was in fact a striker.

Did you start watching football yesterday? Freekicks? Ronaldo's shoot was devastating power and accuracy from 35+ yards. Ronaldo game reading off The ball was just GOAT level. Playmaking? CR7 used to dominate and influence seemingly every single attack at United. He would get the ball deep in his own half and dribble the entire field repeatedly throughout a game and distribute the ball to shape attacks. Save me the trouble of talking about Ronaldo's leadership
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Take a day off, mate.
 
Isafim said:
How about the greatest ever individual UCL campaign by Ronaldo in 13/14? I don't think Maradona had a higher peak
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If you are talking about poaching goals than maybe. But interms of allround play Maradona’s Mexico 86 is as good as it gets and was far superior to any Ronaldo performance let alone tournament.
 
sun_tzu said:
Maradonna would have played further forwards these days - probably wide attacker similar to Messi but back in the 80's he would simply have been smashed to bits if he wasnt operating in the midfield space

As for Fiorentina Van Basten never played for them - are you thinking of Batistuta and as for Effenberg he played there two seasons - one season they were relegated and his second season was in seria B so they were not even mid table at the time (the fact that effengerg, batistuta and brian laudrup were there 3 foreigners in Seria B though just reinforces how strong Italian footaball was in the early 90s
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An assumption that is false. Messi is as tough as nails. The regular abuse he received at the hands of Ramos, Pepe and Co yet he never complained, just got up and embarrassed them over and over again and the cycle continued.
Isafim said:
IMO Maradona is in conversation with DiStefano and Cruijff. The comparison with Romario is not valid because Romario was in fact a striker.

Did you start watching football yesterday? Freekicks? Ronaldo's shoot was devastating power and accuracy from 35+ yards. Ronaldo game reading off The ball was just GOAT level. Playmaking? CR7 used to dominate and influence seemingly every single attack at United. He would get the ball deep in his own half and dribble the entire field repeatedly throughout a game and distribute the ball to shape attacks. Save me the trouble of talking about Ronaldo's leadership
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I've come to a conclusion that you must be trolling.
 
mshnsh said:
An assumption that is false. Messi is as tough as nails. The regular abuse he received at the hands of Ramos, Pepe and Co yet he never complained, just got up and embarrassed them over and over again and the cycle continued.

I've come to a conclusion that you must be trolling.
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Yep. The notion that Messi wouldn't hack it in the physical Serie A is utter nonsense. Of all the players in the modern game who are kicked and kicked and tripped and impeded, Messi probably goes down less than almost any of them. I've seen him outright manhandled and flat out refused to take the easy free-kick by going down.

 
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Ladron de redcafe said:
Talk about delusion:lol::lol: The general consensus is that Messi, Maradona, and Pelé are the three greatest ever, in any order.

Ronaldo isn't even in the same tier. As far as stating that Ronaldo's peak is better than Maradona's, it's so laughable it's borderline trolling.

In any event, this is a Messi thread and that's what we should be discussing here.

1118 goal contribution now, extending his all time record. And 59 free kick making him the active player with the most freekicks.
Click to expand...

I agree with you completely. Utterly absurd to say Cristiano’s peak was above Maradona. He wins in terms of longevity and efficiency, his achievements are huge in the game, but Maradona was a level above. Personally I think Luis Ronaldo at his peak was a level above Cristiano too. Certainly, with that controversy aside, Messi, Pele and Maradona stand alone as the greatest three players ever. For me greatness encapsulates everything, and Ronaldo lacked that genius with the ball that the other three had.

My personal list in order is:

1. Maradona
2. Pele
3. Messi
4. Luis Ronaldo
5. Cristiano Ronaldo
6. Romario
7. Ronaldinho

After that the margins are so fine that it’s hard to separate the next best 20 or so players. I just feel those players had something extra special that is almost impossible to replicate, and their peaks were all so extremely staggering as to stand them apart. Romario isn’t one that gets mentioned so high on people’s lists usually, but for me he is the best finisher of all time, and had a variety of finishing and explosiveness that I haven’t ever seen replicated.

Ronaldinho is the greatest pure entertainer I have ever seen. Played with a joy that you just don’t see anywhere else. His ball control, eccentricity, flair, dribbling were other worldly at his peak, truly magical an untouchable. Maybe the player I most enjoyed watching in my lifetime.

Luis Ronaldo was just an absolutely force of nature, it was a massive shame that his knees were destroyed, but prior to that I have never seen a more complete forward who was a one man forward line. He was just terrifying. If he hadn’t had the injury problems he did, I don’t think it is remotely controversial that he would’ve racked up Messi/Ronaldo numbers over his career. On pure talent he was a level above Cristiano, and was only held back by his injuries.

After that there are so many players that I have loved watching down the years that are hard to place. Michael Laudrup was an absurdly gifted and lavishly talented footballer, who was like poetry in motion. Platini, Cryuff, Baggio, Rivaldo, Stoichkov, Van Basten, Rijkaard, Matthaus all absurdly good (not saying all the same level) and whom I all revered growing up from my Dad waxing lyrical about them, or players who I had the privelege of watching at their peak. Bergkamp was another player who I always admired as more of an artist of the game than the sort of robotic, efficient machine that gets the plaudits these days. I have always been drawn to appreciating players who play with beauty as much as they do ruthless efficiency. That’s why Cristiano will never be above Maradona or the other three I mentioned. He was brilliant at doing everything with incredible precision and efficiency, but he was also selfish and lacked that magical x-factor. He needed service far more than the others, who were all able to do it by themselves, against whatever odds.
 
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simonhch said:
I agree with you completely. Utterly absurd to say Cristiano’s peak was above Maradona. He wins in terms of longevity and efficiency, his achievements are huge in the game, but Maradona was a level above. Personally I think Luis Ronaldo at his peak was a level above Cristiano too. Certainly, with that controversy aside, Messi, Pele and Maradona stand alone as the greatest three players ever. For me greatness encapsulates everything, and Ronaldo lacked that genius with the ball that the other three had.

My personal list in order is:

1. Maradona
2. Pele
3. Messi
4. Luis Ronaldo
5. Cristiano Ronaldo
6. Romario
7. Ronaldinho

After that the margins are so fine that it’s hard to separate the next best 20 or so players. I just feel those players had something extra special that is almost impossible to replicate, and their peaks were all so extremely staggering as to stand them apart. Romario isn’t one that gets mentioned so high on people’s lists usually, but for me he is the best finisher of all time, and had a variety of finishing and explosiveness that I haven’t ever seen replicated.

Ronaldinho is the greatest pure entertainer I have ever seen. Played with a joy that you just don’t see anywhere else. His ball control, eccentricity, flair, dribbling were other worldly at his peak, truly magical an untouchable. Maybe the player I most enjoyed watching in my lifetime.

Luis Ronaldo was just an absolutely force of nature, it was a massive shame that his knees were destroyed, but prior to that I have never seen a more complete forward who was a one man forward line. He was just terrifying. If he hadn’t had the injury problems he did, I don’t think it is remotely controversial that he would’ve racked up Messi/Ronaldo numbers over his career. On pure talent he was a level above Cristiano, and was only held back by his injuries.

After that there are so many players that I have loved watching down the years that are hard to place. Michael Laudrup was an absurdly gifted and lavishly talented footballer, who was like poetry in motion. Platini, Cryuff, Baggio, Rivaldo, Stoichkov, Van Basten, Rijkaard, Matthaus all absurdly good (not saying all the same level) and whom I all revered growing up from my Dad waxing lyrical about them, or players who I had the privelege of watching at their peak. Bergkamp was another player who I always admired as more of an artist of the game than the sort of robotic, efficient machine that gets the plaudits these days. I have always been drawn to appreciating players who play with beauty as much as they do ruthless efficiency. That’s why Cristiano will never be above Maradona or the other three I mentioned. He was brilliant at doing everything with incredible precision and efficiency, but he was also selfish and lacked that magical x-factor. He needed service far more than the others, who were all able to do it by themselves, against whatever odds.
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What's your take on Van Basten? I think the only thing that stops Van Basten from placing higher on that list is that he simply stopped playing through injuries at 28. He would have had more honours, both club and personal, and possibly internationally too.
 
Hoof The Ball said:
What's your take on Van Basten? I think the only thing that stops Van Basten from placing higher on that list is that he simply stopped playing through injuries at 28. He would have had more honours, both club and personal, and possibly internationally too.
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I put him pretty close to Romario when it comes to best pure strikers. He was complete. Injuries did for him of course. Even before 28 he was injury ravaged. It was a huge shame, I remember being gutted when he announced his retirement. I rate him right up there. He had it all and was so graceful. I just love that graceful element to the game.
 
Isafim said:
IMO Maradona is in conversation with DiStefano and Cruijff. The comparison with Romario is not valid because Romario was in fact a striker.

Did you start watching football yesterday? Freekicks? Ronaldo's shoot was devastating power and accuracy from 35+ yards. Ronaldo game reading off The ball was just GOAT level. Playmaking? CR7 used to dominate and influence seemingly every single attack at United. He would get the ball deep in his own half and dribble the entire field repeatedly throughout a game and distribute the ball to shape attacks. Save me the trouble of talking about Ronaldo's leadership
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Ronaldo, despite scoring some screamers, have never been among the best freekick takers, and that is especially true for the latter stage of his career where letting Ronaldo take the freekick means we wont score, period. He has amassed a good career total because he has had the option of taking the freekicks for the vast majority of his career. Few players have missed more freekick shots than Ronaldo, or had more opportunities to score from them.

Messi isnt that much better. He is in the same boat as Ronaldo, where they both enjoyed the luxury of being the gallion figures of their teams, and rightly so. Both of them are complete trash at freekicks compared to the GOAT Juninho for example.
 
simonhch said:
I agree with you completely. Utterly absurd to say Cristiano’s peak was above Maradona. He wins in terms of longevity and efficiency, his achievements are huge in the game, but Maradona was a level above. Personally I think Luis Ronaldo at his peak was a level above Cristiano too. Certainly, with that controversy aside, Messi, Pele and Maradona stand alone as the greatest three players ever. For me greatness encapsulates everything, and Ronaldo lacked that genius with the ball that the other three had.

My personal list in order is:

1. Maradona
2. Pele
3. Messi
4. Luis Ronaldo
5. Cristiano Ronaldo
6. Romario
7. Ronaldinho

After that the margins are so fine that it’s hard to separate the next best 20 or so players. I just feel those players had something extra special that is almost impossible to replicate, and their peaks were all so extremely staggering as to stand them apart. Romario isn’t one that gets mentioned so high on people’s lists usually, but for me he is the best finisher of all time, and had a variety of finishing and explosiveness that I haven’t ever seen replicated.

Ronaldinho is the greatest pure entertainer I have ever seen. Played with a joy that you just don’t see anywhere else. His ball control, eccentricity, flair, dribbling were other worldly at his peak, truly magical an untouchable. Maybe the player I most enjoyed watching in my lifetime.

Luis Ronaldo was just an absolutely force of nature, it was a massive shame that his knees were destroyed, but prior to that I have never seen a more complete forward who was a one man forward line. He was just terrifying. If he hadn’t had the injury problems he did, I don’t think it is remotely controversial that he would’ve racked up Messi/Ronaldo numbers over his career. On pure talent he was a level above Cristiano, and was only held back by his injuries.

After that there are so many players that I have loved watching down the years that are hard to place. Michael Laudrup was an absurdly gifted and lavishly talented footballer, who was like poetry in motion. Platini, Cryuff, Baggio, Rivaldo, Stoichkov, Van Basten, Rijkaard, Matthaus all absurdly good (not saying all the same level) and whom I all revered growing up from my Dad waxing lyrical about them, or players who I had the privelege of watching at their peak. Bergkamp was another player who I always admired as more of an artist of the game than the sort of robotic, efficient machine that gets the plaudits these days. I have always been drawn to appreciating players who play with beauty as much as they do ruthless efficiency. That’s why Cristiano will never be above Maradona or the other three I mentioned. He was brilliant at doing everything with incredible precision and efficiency, but he was also selfish and lacked that magical x-factor. He needed service far more than the others, who were all able to do it by themselves, against whatever odds.
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I think Gerd Muller and Puskás were better finishers than Romário.
 
mshnsh said:
Honestly I don't want to bring the other guy here but the absolute fact is that the relative limitations in Ronaldo's game outside of scoring means he cannot be considered above Maradona. This is despite Ronaldo's longevity and goal output.

Add to this a higher peak and the greatest ever individual world cup campaign and you know why Maradona is amongst the top 3.

That, however, is not to discredit Cristiano who in my books is immediately in the the tier below the 3.
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When Ronaldo fails to score he has always been considered to have a bad game. Regardless of whether or not he dominates his wing, makes penetrating runs through the box, plays in beautiful crosses, shoots difficult shots that either hit the post or forced a fingertip save and dribbles on long runs beating defenders.

Ronaldo has had over 20 assists twice in his career and has 15 or more in a few other season's. Ronaldo has always had assists and chances created numbers comparable or beyond the Xavi's, Iniestas, Pirlo's, Ribery's, Di Maria's etc. who are all credited with being visionary and creative playmakers.

It is indisputable that he is the greatest aerial player in history and among the very best to ever play when it comes to two-footed ability and long range shooting. His off the ball movement and positioning has been nothing short of elite throughout his forward years having an innate sense of how to read play and pick his placement to dictate passes. He is no lightweight when it comes to dribbling and skill-move goals either.
 
Brazilian Ronaldo over Portuguese Ronaldo!

:lol:

Might as well rate Zlatan Ibrahimovic higher for not winning a CL ever in his life!
 
simonhch said:
I agree with you completely. Utterly absurd to say Cristiano’s peak was above Maradona. He wins in terms of longevity and efficiency, his achievements are huge in the game, but Maradona was a level above. Personally I think Luis Ronaldo at his peak was a level above Cristiano too. Certainly, with that controversy aside, Messi, Pele and Maradona stand alone as the greatest three players ever. For me greatness encapsulates everything, and Ronaldo lacked that genius with the ball that the other three had.

My personal list in order is:

1. Maradona
2. Pele
3. Messi
4. Luis Ronaldo
5. Cristiano Ronaldo
6. Romario
7. Ronaldinho

After that the margins are so fine that it’s hard to separate the next best 20 or so players. I just feel those players had something extra special that is almost impossible to replicate, and their peaks were all so extremely staggering as to stand them apart. Romario isn’t one that gets mentioned so high on people’s lists usually, but for me he is the best finisher of all time, and had a variety of finishing and explosiveness that I haven’t ever seen replicated.

Ronaldinho is the greatest pure entertainer I have ever seen. Played with a joy that you just don’t see anywhere else. His ball control, eccentricity, flair, dribbling were other worldly at his peak, truly magical an untouchable. Maybe the player I most enjoyed watching in my lifetime.

Luis Ronaldo was just an absolutely force of nature, it was a massive shame that his knees were destroyed, but prior to that I have never seen a more complete forward who was a one man forward line. He was just terrifying. If he hadn’t had the injury problems he did, I don’t think it is remotely controversial that he would’ve racked up Messi/Ronaldo numbers over his career. On pure talent he was a level above Cristiano, and was only held back by his injuries.

After that there are so many players that I have loved watching down the years that are hard to place. Michael Laudrup was an absurdly gifted and lavishly talented footballer, who was like poetry in motion. Platini, Cryuff, Baggio, Rivaldo, Stoichkov, Van Basten, Rijkaard, Matthaus all absurdly good (not saying all the same level) and whom I all revered growing up from my Dad waxing lyrical about them, or players who I had the privelege of watching at their peak. Bergkamp was another player who I always admired as more of an artist of the game than the sort of robotic, efficient machine that gets the plaudits these days. I have always been drawn to appreciating players who play with beauty as much as they do ruthless efficiency. That’s why Cristiano will never be above Maradona or the other three I mentioned. He was brilliant at doing everything with incredible precision and efficiency, but he was also selfish and lacked that magical x-factor. He needed service far more than the others, who were all able to do it by themselves, against whatever odds.
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That's a great post. I would have Zidane somewhere in there but I don't think he's better than Ronald Nazario as a pure footballer.

Nobody mentiond Laundrup when it comes to discussions about all time greats (or at least not as much as they should) but he was just bout on par with Iniesta when it comes to technique, and was bigger and a little faster.

Your last point encapsulates what separates the first tier of great footballers with the 2nd. None of the holy trumivirate of football (Messi, Maradona, and Pelé) needed service to make things happen.

The unfortunate thing is the general consensus might be very different had Ronaldo Nazario not gotten injured. People might not be talking about the Maradona-Messi-Pele tier as the greatest and instead, there's a very real possibility they would have been talking about him as the greatest.
 
After a lot of searching, found this article from 2014. Messi's peak was not great, it was alien.

2010-14: G+A
morris-feature-messi-6.png

xG vs G - finishing efficiency
morris-feature-messi-table-1.png

2010-14: long shots
morris-feature-messi-31.png

Unassisted goals:

morris-feature-messi-41.png

Take-ons:
morris-feature-messi-5.png

Through balls - this one is the most ridiculous

morris-feature-messi-82.png
 
Isafim said:
When Ronaldo fails to score he has always been considered to have a bad game. Regardless of whether or not he dominates his wing, makes penetrating runs through the box, plays in beautiful crosses, shoots difficult shots that either hit the post or forced a fingertip save and dribbles on long runs beating defenders.

Ronaldo has had over 20 assists twice in his career and has 15 or more in a few other season's. Ronaldo has always had assists and chances created numbers comparable or beyond the Xavi's, Iniestas, Pirlo's, Ribery's, Di Maria's etc. who are all credited with being visionary and creative playmakers.

It is indisputable that he is the greatest aerial player in history and among the very best to ever play when it comes to two-footed ability and long range shooting. His off the ball movement and positioning has been nothing short of elite throughout his forward years having an innate sense of how to read play and pick his placement to dictate passes. He is no lightweight when it comes to dribbling and skill-move goals either.
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With regards to assists etc, playing as a wide forward or winger is a excellent position to get assists. It's actually harder if you play deeper like Xavi or Pirlo for that matter. Or someone like Scholes. Not dissing Ronnie here at all because he's not too shabby in that regard, but the quality of his assists his not in the same tier as the greatest playmakers at all, although in his prime they were good. Someone like Gerd Muller had about a similar game/Assist ratio like Ronaldo but it's hardly something you associate with him. I don't think when Ronnie was in his prime and didn't score he was considered to have bad game, he just rarely had a "masterclass" without scoring.
 
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berbatrick said:
After a lot of searching, found this article from 2014. Messi's peak was not great, it was alien.

2010-14: G+A
morris-feature-messi-6.png

xG vs G - finishing efficiency
morris-feature-messi-table-1.png

2010-14: long shots
morris-feature-messi-31.png

Unassisted goals:

morris-feature-messi-41.png

Take-ons:
morris-feature-messi-5.png

Through balls - this one is the most ridiculous

morris-feature-messi-82.png
Click to expand...

Just incredible.
 
berbatrick said:
After a lot of searching, found this article from 2014. Messi's peak was not great, it was alien.

2010-14: G+A
morris-feature-messi-6.png

xG vs G - finishing efficiency
morris-feature-messi-table-1.png

2010-14: long shots
morris-feature-messi-31.png

Unassisted goals:

morris-feature-messi-41.png

Take-ons:
morris-feature-messi-5.png

Through balls - this one is the most ridiculous

morris-feature-messi-82.png
Click to expand...

He was a statistical outlier :lol:
That's staggering.
 
Ronaldo is a more limited player than Messi but I don't know why people are pretending that he was a poacher who couldn't do anything with the ball other than tap it in.
 
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If you are going to compare xG vs G and talk about efficiency you'd need to show a margin of error so that we can see if these differences between players fall within it or not.
 
Ladron de redcafe said:
That's a great post. I would have Zidane somewhere in there but I don't think he's better than Ronald Nazario as a pure footballer.

Nobody mentiond Laundrup when it comes to discussions about all time greats (or at least not as much as they should) but he was just bout on par with Iniesta when it comes to technique, and was bigger and a little faster.

Your last point encapsulates what separates the first tier of great footballers with the 2nd. None of the holy trumivirate of football (Messi, Maradona, and Pelé) needed service to make things happen.

The unfortunate thing is the general consensus might be very different had Ronaldo Nazario not gotten injured. People might not be talking about the Maradona-Messi-Pele tier as the greatest and instead, there's a very real possibility they would have been talking about him as the greatest.
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Hard to compare Zidane with R9, completely different kind of player.

There is more similarity between Maradona,Messi, and Pele than between Zidane and R9 when it comes to style of play.

I have Zidane as the GOAT of midfielders along with Platini, Iniesta,Xavi and Michael Laudrup, it's hard to compare these players to strikers or wingers, even if Platini scored a lot.
Completely different kind of players.
 
berbatrick said:
After a lot of searching, found this article from 2014. Messi's peak was not great, it was alien.

2010-14: G+A
morris-feature-messi-6.png

xG vs G - finishing efficiency
morris-feature-messi-table-1.png

2010-14: long shots
morris-feature-messi-31.png

Unassisted goals:

morris-feature-messi-41.png

Take-ons:
morris-feature-messi-5.png

Through balls - this one is the most ridiculous

morris-feature-messi-82.png
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There won't be any player like Messi in our lifetime, unreal stuff.
 
Messi is easily the best of his generation, Ronaldos one in a lifetime physical and mental attributes have helped him close the gap, but in terms of playing football, Messi is an all time great playmaker and goal scorer in one, Ronaldo is only one of those things.
 
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