Lionel Messi | PSG Watch

[FrankFoot]

I am not the least surprised knowing about the Italian tifosi. Verona is a quite beautiful city too.

Anyway my side comment about Hellas Verona and Elkjaer was more to put those 2 Napoli scudetti in the 1980's into perspective. Many people talk about those 2 scudetti (1987, 1990) with Napoli as if it was some kind of miracle or as if Napoli's squad was comparable to that of Ascoli in those years.

Also, as I wrote, I did not watch football in the 1980's (yet to be born) but I would imagine that the discrepancy in terms of the top clubs and all the rest was much smaller than today hence it being possible for the likes of Hellas Verona to win a scudetto (1985) and Napoli doing it twice with the best footballer in the world of that era.

Serie A was stacked in the 80s, Platini only won 2 Serie A titles with a great Juve team... Dybala had won 5 Serie A titles, while never being considered not even top 5 player in the world.

There is an abysmal difference in quality between top teams and medium/smaller teams nowadays, all because of Bosman ruling.

And let's not forget that is easier to stad padd in this era, if you play for the elite teams.
Haaland has a chance to surpass the goal records of Messi and Ronaldo, if injuries don't get in his way.
The norwegian is gonna stad-padd the shit out of the PL, by destroying english mid table teams that are 4 tiers below City in terms of quality.

 

[CruyffMaradonaMessi]

Competitive internationals:
Messi: 47 goals in 114 games or 1 goal every 2.4 games
Maradona: 17 goals in 46 games or 1 goal every 2.7 games
A difference of only 0.3, despite Maradona playing in an era of fewer goals, backpass rule and rougher tackles.

So now friendlies don't matter out of a sudden? Or are you trying to argue that Maradona was in fact a better goalscorer than Messi who is arguably the greatest goalscorer of all-time while also being one of the best playmakers/having the highest amount of recorded assists in football history?

You also forgot that Messi's teammates were far better goalscorer's than those of Maradona.

Also are we conveniently going to forget that football during Messi's era was/is superior to that of Maradona's era in almost every single way? Tactically, physically and in terms of the average footballer's own level.

Serie A was stacked in the 80s, Platini only won 2 Serie A titles with a great Juve team... Dybala had won 5 Serie A titles, while never being considered not even top 5 player in the world.

There is an abysmal difference in quality between top teams and medium/smaller teams nowadays, all because of Bosman ruling.

It's easier to stad padd nowadays, if you play for the elite teams.

You are stating the obvious here and I did not claim otherwise.

However the point remains the same. Elkjaer and Verona won 1 less scudetti in that incredibly stacked era with a team (Hellas Verona) that was far worse (on paper) than Napoli's Maradona teams. Not to mention that Maradona was the far superior player to Elkjaer.

I was just opposing the "Napoli were complete and utter scrubs and it was an absolute miracle that Maradona won 2 scudetti with Napoli alone" kind of rhetoric.

Rest we agree with (stat padding).

Yeah I understand. I was too young to watch Maradona. I think it's one of those things where you had to be a spectator of that era to appreciate what kind of player he was. Opinon differs though. I have a friend who used to watch the busby babes and later he watched Maradona too and thought he was very overrated due to his lack of consistency. Of course that's just his opinon. I know feck all about how Maradona played on a match to match basis, but since it was between him and Pelé mostly before Messi came along, he must have been something special.

No doubt about that. Hence my comments about Maradona being the most similar player that I have seen clips/matches of to Messi (to date) which speaks for itself about how great a football talent he must have been. I mean he is widely recognized as being one of the greatest footballers of all-time (top 3 almost always) so there is that. Messi is in the same conversation almost always. Anyway if Messi wins the World Cup with Argentina this year (doubtful), I don't think that this will make him a better or worse player. His legacy will be even bigger because this is the only trophy that he lacks, but his legacy is already "made" IMO.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I think its true that Messi's lack of iconic WC performances is something lacking in his resume, but still I'd say that Argentina has been knocked out every time by a better team.

Yeah, that's fair enough (including the Copa).

So, it's not a question of him being noticeably underwhelming in terms of what the team (generally speaking) "should" have accomplished. It's more about how he has performed individually.

And - again - it's a) not a question of him under-performing in the extreme and b) well...different eras, etc. National teams are not what they used to be.

We've discussed this many times before on here, but the last time the best national team (the best/ideal XI) was stronger than a club counterpart was...I would say we're talking about at least three decades ago *, at any rate way before Messi's time.

* West Germany 1990 is a possible shout, but even that isn't obvious at all.

 

[Gehrman]

Galácticos Real was far from the best team, they were very good, but not enough to challenge for many trophies consecutively like City and current Real Madrid, so i would say the only real top team R9 played for is Brazil.

When Pele played at Santos, the Brazilian league was the most stacked out there with talent.

Goal inflation is more noticeable nowadays due to Bosman ruling, the richest teams can sign the best foreigners without thinking about restrictions, so nowadays 90% of the best talent in the world ends up playing at the elite clubs.

We won't the see cases anymore like Maradona at Napoli, Matthaus at Monchengladbach, Zico at Udinese, or brazilian Falcao at Roma.

Luiz Ronaldo played with Zidane, Figo, Beckham, Redondo, Roberto Carlos, Raul and Makelele. Back then that was just about as good service as you could get.

 

[Zehner]

Luiz Ronaldo played with Zidane, Figo, Beckham, Redondo, Roberto Carlos, Raul and Makelele. Back then that was just about as good service as you could get.

I bet he would have swept the whole lot of them against an intact knee. When people say tha Ronaldo was one of the best ever, they aren't talking about the Ronaldo that played for Real Madrid or won the WC in 2002.

 

[Gehrman]

I bet he would have swept the whole lot of them against an intact knee. When people say tha Ronaldo was one of the best ever, they aren't talking about the Ronaldo that played for Real Madrid or won the WC in 2002.

I know

 

[Hoof the ball]

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

Been busy signing people's body parts:







Came off the bench to score another goal from outside of the box and a 59th career freekick (within 3 of Maradona's 62 now):

 

[wr8_utd]

Might not be the greatest level of opposition but yet more Argentina goals for Messi. He's having a wonderful season and he's up there with the best in the world right now.

 

[Hoof the ball]

Messi's 1st goal. Long-range effort.

 

[Hoof the ball]

Might not be the greatest level of opposition but yet more Argentina goals for Messi. He's having a wonderful season and he's up there with the best in the world right now.

True that.

Read that he now has 41 G+A in 2022, and more than Lewa, Haaland and Benzema. Man.

 

[horsechoker]

Yeah this Messi is alright, wouldn't look out of place at a top Bundesliga club or a mid-table Premier league club

 

[Rojow]

Yeah this Messi is alright, wouldn't look out of place at a top Bundesliga club or a mid-table Premier league club

He is as good as peak De Bruyne passing the ball. But yeah, a mid-table Premier League Club...

 

[the_cliff]

He is as good as peak De Bruyne passing the ball. But yeah, a mid-table Premier League Club...

Much better, it's not even close.

 

[horsechoker]

He is as good as peak De Bruyne passing the ball. But yeah, a mid-table Premier League Club...

Yeah like I said he's alright.

 

[mshnsh]

Competitive internationals:
Messi: 47 goals in 114 games or 1 goal every 2.4 games
Maradona: 17 goals in 46 games or 1 goal every 2.7 games
A difference of only 0.3, despite Maradona playing in an era of fewer goals, backpass rule and rougher tackles.

Your hobby is to downplay everything Messi achieves.

Pele, Messi and Maradona are the 3 greatest ever that is undoubted and who is greatest amongst them will always bring debates. IMO players from different eras should not be compared because football has changed over the years.

During Maradona’s time, it was more physical and the pitches poor but opponents weren't as good interms of fitness, speed and tactics.

During Pelé's time football was in its infancy with even part time footballers playing. Everything that was bad during Maradona’s time was worse at the time.

Currently pitches are carpets and it's an era of super clubs but opponents are faster, fitter and tactically more astute.

Ultimately every era has its share of positives and negatives for the attacker so it really is very difficult to compare across eras.

 

[CruyffMaradonaMessi]

779 official goals in 987 official games for club and country. Record amount of recorded assists made in football history.

A 2.5 years older C. Ronaldo has 816 official goals in 1134 official games for club and country in comparison.

GOAT.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

779 official goals in 987 official games for club and country. Record amount of recorded assists made in football history.

A 2.5 years older C. Ronaldo has 816 official goals in 1134 official games for club and country in comparison.

GOAT.

Is this really needed?

 

[CruyffMaradonaMessi]

Is this really needed?

What is the matter? I just put Messi’s numbers into perspective and compared them to his perceived football rival and the contemporary player that Messi is most compared to and vice versa. In particular as I have seen the factually wrong notion of C. Ronaldo being a greater goal scorer here and elsewhere being a quite common opinion. Clearly the actual numbers don’t support this theory.

 

[Gehrman]

779 official goals in 987 official games for club and country. Record amount of recorded assists made in football history.

A 2.5 years older C. Ronaldo has 816 official goals in 1134 official games for club and country in comparison.

GOAT.

Please stop. It triggers the neverending circular arguments and debates. Compare him against anyone else than the other guy in this thread please.

 

[Gehrman]

What is the matter? I just put Messi’s numbers into perspective and compared them to his perceived football rival and the contemporary player that Messi is most compared to and vice versa. In particular as I have seen the factually wrong notion of C. Ronaldo being a greater goal scorer here and elsewhere being a quite common opinion. Clearly the actual numbers don’t support this theory.

The Messi vs Ronaldo thread was locked because of the poor circular arguments. If the mods won't open that one let's try and keep it to a minimum.

 

[Zippycup]

779 official goals in 987 official games for club and country. Record amount of recorded assists made in football history.

A 2.5 years older C. Ronaldo has 816 official goals in 1134 official games for club and country in comparison.

GOAT.

I've never understood the need to compare Ronaldo and Messi.
Two different players, both could be regarded as the best ever, but its impossible to prove as its based on opinion and not fact

For me Best and Maradona are in the discussion, for others it could be Pele, Zidane or Crufyy etc.

Just enjoy the last few remaining years Messi has left. His talent doesn't have to be justified to anyone or against anyone.

 

[CruyffMaradonaMessi]

Guys my post had no intentions of trolling whatsoever. I was not aware that a simple statistic comparison is a controversial endeavour on RedCafe. I rate C. Ronaldo highly myself and nobody can deny that he has had a legendary career. Just to make that clear.

@Ladron de redcafe

A shame that Messi’s free kick ability declined a lot in the past 2 years. If he had kept going on this front he could have been up there along with the free kick GOAT (Juninho) in terms of free kicks scored.

 

[Isafim]

Your hobby is to downplay everything Messi achieves.

Pele, Messi and Maradona are the 3 greatest ever that is undoubted and who is greatest amongst them will always bring debates. IMO players from different eras should not be compared because football has changed over the years.

During Maradona’s time, it was more physical and the pitches poor but opponents weren't as good interms of fitness, speed and tactics.

During Pelé's time football was in its infancy with even part time footballers playing. Everything that was bad during Maradona’s time was worse at the time.

Currently pitches are carpets and it's an era of super clubs but opponents are faster, fitter and tactically more astute.

Ultimately every era has its share of positives and negatives for the attacker so it really is very difficult to compare across eras.

Wrong, Pele, Messi and CR7 are the GOATs without question. CR7 is way ahead of Maradona. Cristiano's peak was much higher. He had much more longevity and consistency. And many more achievements. How can you put for a guy who won 5 UCL being top scorer and protagonist, the highest scorer in official games history BELOW Maradona??? This is pointless. The only thing Maradona was superior at was dribbling.

 

[mshnsh]

779 official goals in 987 official games for club and country. Record amount of recorded assists made in football history.

A 2.5 years older C. Ronaldo has 816 official goals in 1134 official games for club and country in comparison.

GOAT.

No need. Messi is not defined by stats, he is beyond them.

 

[Hoof the ball]

Add to that 4 goals, 5 assists in 7 games in Copa America 2021 win. Momentum.

 

[Gehrman]

Wrong, Pele, Messi and CR7 are the GOATs without question. CR7 is way ahead of Maradona. Cristiano's peak was much higher. He had much more longevity and consistency. And many more achievements. How can you put for a guy who won 5 UCL being top scorer and protagonist, the highest scorer in official games history BELOW Maradona??? This is pointless. The only thing Maradona was superior at was dribbling.

It's context. Otherwise it's Romario>Maradona every time

 

[Donaldo]

Guys my post had no intentions of trolling whatsoever. I was not aware that a simple statistic comparison is a controversial endeavour on RedCafe. I rate C. Ronaldo highly myself and nobody can deny that he has had a legendary career. Just to make that clear.

@Ladron de redcafe

A shame that Messi’s free kick ability declined a lot in the past 2 years. If he had kept going on this front he could have been up there along with the free kick GOAT (Juninho) in terms of free kicks scored.

Sorry, going to have to threadban you and ban you from ever using the word Messi. Your bans are effective 1600 hrs GMT.

 

[That_Bloke]

Wrong, Pele, Messi and CR7 are the GOATs without question. CR7 is way ahead of Maradona. Cristiano's peak was much higher. He had much more longevity and consistency. And many more achievements. How can you put for a guy who won 5 UCL being top scorer and protagonist, the highest scorer in official games history BELOW Maradona??? This is pointless. The only thing Maradona was superior at was dribbling.

And passing, and playmaking, and game reading, and freekicks, and leadership, and...

 

[iHicksy]

He is as good as peak De Bruyne passing the ball. But yeah, a mid-table Premier League Club...

Please never promote this guy.

 

[Bebestation]

People can’t say Pele is the best and then not CR7

Pele, Messi, Maradona, CR7 are the top 4.

If they are not even including CR7 to contemplate his ability then that’s just pure bias.

In fact, if CR7 isn’t involved and only the South Americans are ever called GOAT’s like Pele, Maradona and Messi -

Then that shows what type of football meets certain type of fans eye lids that they simply value more than another.

 

[Isafim]

It's context. Otherwise it's Romario>Maradona every time

IMO Maradona is in conversation with DiStefano and Cruijff. The comparison with Romario is not valid because Romario was in fact a striker.

And passing, and playmaking, and game reading, and freekicks, and leadership, and...

Did you start watching football yesterday? Freekicks? Ronaldo's shoot was devastating power and accuracy from 35+ yards. Ronaldo game reading off The ball was just GOAT level. Playmaking? CR7 used to dominate and influence seemingly every single attack at United. He would get the ball deep in his own half and dribble the entire field repeatedly throughout a game and distribute the ball to shape attacks. Save me the trouble of talking about Ronaldo's leadership

 

[JPRouve]

Yeah like I said he's alright.

You deserve to be randomly slapped for the rest of your life.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

IMO Maradona is in conversation with DiStefano and Cruijff. The comparison with Romario is not valid because Romario was in fact a striker.

Did you start watching football yesterday? Freekicks? Ronaldo's shoot was devastating power and accuracy from 35+ yards. Ronaldo game reading off The ball was just GOAT level. Playmaking? CR7 used to dominate and influence seemingly every single attack at United. He would get the ball deep in his own half and dribble the entire field repeatedly throughout a game and distribute the ball to shape attacks. Save me the trouble of talking about Ronaldo's leadership

Yeah so there's sensible talk and then this. He doesn't have the qualities to ever be a playmaker. Could have just focused on his strengths and accepted the passing/ playmaking stuff.

 

[FrankFoot]

Wrong, Pele, Messi and CR7 are the GOATs without question. CR7 is way ahead of Maradona. Cristiano's peak was much higher. He had much more longevity and consistency. And many more achievements. How can you put for a guy who won 5 UCL being top scorer and protagonist, the highest scorer in official games history BELOW Maradona??? This is pointless. The only thing Maradona was superior at was dribbling.

Maradona wasn't a goalscorer, let's compare CR7 with Matthaus as well.

And stad-padding is easier in modern times , due to how imbalanced is the game with the biggest teams concentrating most of the talent out there, back in the 80s only 3 foreigners were allowed per team, which made the game more and the talent more well distributed.

Haaland probably gonna score more than Messi and CR7 in the UCL, and he is gonna stad-padd the shit out of the PL, still he will never be as good as Messi and Cr7 outside of scoring.

 

[antk]

Add to that 4 goals, 5 assists in 7 games in Copa America 2021 win. Momentum.

Why would you add G/A from 14 months ago to this season's stats?
Especially when he was performing at a much lower level in the months in-between.

 

[Hoof the ball]

Why would you add G/A from 14 months ago to this season's stats?
Especially when he was performing at a much lower level in the months in-between.

I'm adding that to his international form as an aside, since, he's got the momentum running into the World Cup from a brilliant previous international tournament. Poor PSG season last year noted, of course.

 

[mshnsh]

Wrong, Pele, Messi and CR7 are the GOATs without question. CR7 is way ahead of Maradona. Cristiano's peak was much higher. He had much more longevity and consistency. And many more achievements. How can you put for a guy who won 5 UCL being top scorer and protagonist, the highest scorer in official games history BELOW Maradona??? This is pointless. The only thing Maradona was superior at was dribbling.

Honestly I don't want to bring the other guy here but the absolute fact is that the relative limitations in Ronaldo's game outside of scoring means he cannot be considered above Maradona. This is despite Ronaldo's longevity and goal output.

Add to this a higher peak and the greatest ever individual world cup campaign and you know why Maradona is amongst the top 3.

That, however, is not to discredit Cristiano who in my books is immediately in the the tier below the 3.

 

[Hoof the ball]

Honestly I don't want to bring the other guy here but the absolute fact is that the relative limitations in Ronaldo's game outside of scoring means he cannot be considered above Maradona. This is despite Ronaldo's longevity and goal output.

Add to this a higher peak and the greatest ever individual world cup campaign and you know why Maradona is amongst the top 3.

That, however, is not to discredit Cristiano who in my books is immediately in the the tier below the 3.

Yeah, I think what people don't consider is that Serie A was defensively immense. Unlike now, where marking is largely zonal, back then a lot of it was man-marking and you were duelling with defenders who were relentless and brilliant at shutting individual players down. This is why scoring feats are fewer in those Serie A days. This is the context in which we find Maradona in, and Van Basten, etc. And like has been mentioned, the three foreigner rule meant that talent was spread out across the entire league. You had Van Basten, Effenberg and co, playing for a Fiorentina who lounged in mid-table and sometimes lower.

 

[Bebestation]

How many assists does Maradona have in all official matches?