Lionel Messi - Performances

Sparky10Legend said:
He's been so much better than Ronaldo this year, it's a farce if they end up with the same number of Balon D'ors.

Stevie Wonder can see Messi is better in almost every single metric.
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Sports, media and the fans are "fair" like that, everyone might say now thinking Jordan was the GOAT for almost his entire career hands down, yet he failed to win the NBA MVP twice while making the Bulls champions. Kobe has the same MVP's than Iverson and one less than Nash...

The "who's the best?" debate creates a lot of hours of content, you can't dismiss that question with 'Yeah this guy is the best' and lose all the drama that topic feeds, and it's even worse in collective sports when individual performance can't be directly measured by success.

And thank god Messi became a goalscorer to just round up every other thing he brings to the team, because had he been stuck at 40 goals per season while dancing in midfield and giving assists for his teammates to waste the debate would be even more ridiculous. We're living in an alternate universe where Gerd Muller would have as much Ballon D'ors as Cruyff and Beckenbauer combined
 
I'd actually love to see him play behind Ronaldo in a friendly once. If Isco can help create so much for Ronaldo, can't even imagine what havoc a Messi supplying Ronaldo team would create. The amount of chances that the two idiots Suarez and Neymar is shocking.
 
Messi might have been better but Barca haven't won shite this season, whereas Madrid have, which is why Ronaldo will win the Ballon D'or. It's how it's always been.
 
Ishdalar said:
Sports, media and the fans are "fair" like that, everyone might say now thinking Jordan was the GOAT for almost his entire career hands down, yet he failed to win the NBA MVP twice while making the Bulls champions. Kobe has the same MVP's than Iverson and one less than Nash...

The "who's the best?" debate creates a lot of hours of content, you can't dismiss that question with 'Yeah this guy is the best' and lose all the drama that topic feeds, and it's even worse in collective sports when individual performance can't be directly measured by success.

And thank god Messi became a goalscorer to just round up every other thing he brings to the team, because had he been stuck at 40 goals per season while dancing in midfield and giving assists for his teammates to waste the debate would be even more ridiculous. We're living in an alternate universe where Gerd Muller would have as much Ballon D'ors as Cruyff and Beckenbauer combined
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Messi has played 6 more games than Cristiano and the assist count this season is 15 to 12. Hardly a big difference and Barça are the more attacking side while Cristiano missed some of the easier games in La Liga. Trying to make it seem like one plays like Gerd Muller and the other like Cruyff is the only problem here because that's not the case at all even though Messi has been clearly the more creative on the ball of the two this season. You're the one not being "fair" here.
 
wr8_utd said:
I'd actually love to see him play behind Ronaldo in a friendly once. If Isco can help create so much for Ronaldo, can't even imagine what havoc a Messi supplying Ronaldo team would create. The amount of chances that the two idiots Suarez and Neymar is shocking.
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Ronaldo (from the Mourinho teams) in Neymar's position, with either Suarez or Benzema upfront. Messi in his RW/10 hybrid. Utter devastation.
 
Peyroteo said:
Messi has played 6 more games than Cristiano and the assist count this season is 15 to 12. Hardly a big difference and Barça are the more attacking side while Cristiano missed some of the easier games in La Liga. Trying to make it seem like one plays like Gerd Muller and the other like Cruyff is the only problem here because that's not the case at all even though Messi has been clearly the more creative on the ball of the two this season. You're the one not being "fair" here.
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If it was Ronaldo getting on the end of chances Messi creates, trust me it would definitely be closer to 25-30 assists :lol: Neymar and Suarez are really wasteful every time I watch them.
 
He's been amazing for 95% for the matches but the other 5% have cost Barcelona this season. So dependent of him, all in all in it all it wasnt enough and their season has been a failure. Quite mindboggling that they are expected to win the league / or CL.
 
wr8_utd said:
If it was Ronaldo getting on the end of chances Messi creates, trust me it would definitely be closer to 25-30 assists :lol: Neymar and Suarez are really wasteful every time I watch them.
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Tbf even though Benzema misses his fair share of chances too, you're right that those numbers don't really tell the whole story. I just feel like the post I replied to was completely exagerating things.
 
Peyroteo said:
Messi has played 6 more games than Cristiano and the assist count this season is 15 to 12. Hardly a big difference and Barça are the more attacking side while Cristiano missed some of the easier games in La Liga. Trying to make it seem like one plays like Gerd Muller and the other like Cruyff is the only problem here because that's not the case at all even though Messi has been clearly the more creative on the ball of the two this season. You're the one not being "fair" here.
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Let's go for La Liga, where both players face the same teams for 38 games.

Lionel "not Cruyff" Messi per game: 5'3 Shots, 2,3 Key Passes, 3,7 Dribbles, 48'4 Passes
Cristiano "not Muller" Ronaldo per game: 5,6 Shots, 1,1 Key Passes, 0,9 Dribbles, 32'8 Passes

Or, more visual and comparing him to what could be La Liga 3rd best player, Real Madrid's playmaker and the best pure striker besides Ronaldo himself

o73XOcC.png


So, Messi isn't closer to being compared to the total footballer? He's basically Ronaldo, Modric and Griezmann but occupying one single spot in your team. Ronaldo has been a one dimensional player for some years now, he's great at what he does, but nothing more, he's closer to Aduriz than to Griezmann or Modric, if that doesn't scream Goalscoring Striker to you I don't know what would do it
 
Ishdalar said:
Let's go for La Liga, where both players face the same teams for 38 games.

Lionel "not Cruyff" Messi per game: 5'3 Shots, 2,3 Key Passes, 3,7 Dribbles, 48'4 Passes
Cristiano "not Muller" Ronaldo per game: 5,6 Shots, 1,1 Key Passes, 0,9 Dribbles, 32'8 Passes

Or, more visual and comparing him to what could be La Liga 3rd best player, Real Madrid's playmaker and the best pure striker besides Ronaldo himself

o73XOcC.png


So, Messi isn't closer to being compared to the total footballer? He's basically Ronaldo, Modric and Griezmann but occupying one single spot in your team. Ronaldo has been a one dimensional player for some years now, he's great at what he does, but nothing more, he's closer to Aduriz than to Griezmann or Modric, if that doesn't scream Goalscoring Striker to you I don't know what would do it
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This
 
Ishdalar said:
Let's go for La Liga, where both players face the same teams for 38 games.

Lionel "not Cruyff" Messi per game: 5'3 Shots, 2,3 Key Passes, 3,7 Dribbles, 48'4 Passes
Cristiano "not Muller" Ronaldo per game: 5,6 Shots, 1,1 Key Passes, 0,9 Dribbles, 32'8 Passes

Or, more visual and comparing him to what could be La Liga 3rd best player, Real Madrid's playmaker and the best pure striker besides Ronaldo himself



So, Messi isn't closer to being compared to the total footballer? He's basically Ronaldo, Modric and Griezmann but occupying one single spot in your team. Ronaldo has been a one dimensional player for some years now, he's great at what he does, but nothing more, he's closer to Aduriz than to Griezmann or Modric, if that doesn't scream Goalscoring Striker to you I don't know what would do it
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God these stat wars are so tedious. The stats really dont tell us that much because 99% of the time they lack context, situation, environment, atmosphere etc etc etc. A stat doesnt tell you how beautiful a shoulder drop, change of direction and pace combined with an amazing 1st touch was or how it led to a shot on goal 5 passes later.

Whatever happened to people being able to watch, understand and appreciate brilliance and genius when its placed in front of them?
 
Stack said:
God these stat wars are so tedious. The stats really dont tell us that much because 99% of the time they lack context, situation, environment, atmosphere etc etc etc. A stat doesnt tell you how beautiful a shoulder drop, change of direction and pace combined with an amazing 1st touch was or how it led to a shot on goal 5 passes later.

Whatever happened to people being able to watch, understand and appreciate brilliance and genius when its placed in front of them?
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Honestly, if I have to make the case for Messi as truly special as a goalscorer, passer, and dribbler, simultaneously, it will be on that basis.
But many people simply won't accept it, so I think these stats are handy. They do destroy the magic of simply seeing him play - like that 4th goal yesterday.
 
berbatrick said:
Honestly, if I have to make the case for Messi as truly special as a goalscorer, passer, and dribbler, simultaneously, it will be on that basis.
But many people simply won't accept it, so I think these stats are handy. They do destroy the magic of simply seeing him play - like that 4th goal yesterday.
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I think for anyone who has played or understands the game at any sensible level then the need to use stats to make a case for Messi becomes a bit redundant. The people you are needing stats for to prove a point really havent got a clue. There are very few playing stats around like those being touted here for the likes of Pele, Best, Cryuff, Maradona etc because stats werent a thing back then but football people know how good they are. Messi is an amazing player, a very complete player, people who cant see that are morons.
 
Peyroteo said:
Cristiano 'Gerd Muller' Ronaldo will end his career with three times as many assists as the german...
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Unlikely. Assists weren't registered in many games at that time, it's safe to say that Müller had many more than the 111 career assists Transfermarkt has him at. These are almost exclusively his BL assists (106, dunno if that count is complete either), with almost all assists from the European cups, DFB cup and the NT missing.

He also shouldn't be used as the epitome of a pure goalscorer who added nothing otherwise, because there was much more to his game.
 
Synco said:
He also shouldn't be used as the epitome of a pure goalscorer who added nothing otherwise, because there was much more to his game.
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^This so much.
I actually wonder.. if Müller can be seen as basically a more clinical version of Inzaghi if Cristiano Ronaldo will be seen as a pure poacher in 40 years as well.

Btw I agree with the Messi-Cruyff comparison. He always reminded me more of Cruyff than Maradona personally.
 
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Stack said:
God these stat wars are so tedious. The stats really dont tell us that much because 99% of the time they lack context, situation, environment, atmosphere etc etc etc. A stat doesnt tell you how beautiful a shoulder drop, change of direction and pace combined with an amazing 1st touch was or how it led to a shot on goal 5 passes later.

Whatever happened to people being able to watch, understand and appreciate brilliance and genius when its placed in front of them?
Click to expand...

I ask myself the same things when I hear people saying Ronaldo is better than Messi.
You just have to watch Messi take the ball from the halfway line, dribble everyone and score in a game Cristiano played in to know who is the better player.
 
serghei said:
I ask myself the same things when I hear people saying Ronaldo is better than Messi.
You just have to watch Messi take the ball from the halfway line, dribble everyone and score in a game Cristiano played in to know who is the better player.
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But again, is not even a debate between stats, even there Messi emerges as the winner of the debate. His genius at every other thing in the pitch is what puts him a whole tier above Ronaldo and two tiers above any other player of his era imho.

The measure would be Zidane being Zidane in the 98/06 era while banging goals at crazy rates. Zidane playing like Zidane and banging like Ronaldo/Trezeguet/Henry etc...
 
serghei said:
I ask myself the same things when I hear people saying Ronaldo is better than Messi.
You just have to watch Messi take the ball from the halfway line, dribble everyone and score in a game Cristiano played in to know who is the better player.
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That would be the case if a goal like that was worth more than all the others. It's genius and beautiful but it only counts as one goal all the same

Ishdalar said:
But again, is not even a debate between stats, even there Messi emerges as the winner of the debate. His genius at every other thing in the pitch is what puts him a whole tier above Ronaldo and two tiers above any other player of his era imho.

The measure would be Zidane being Zidane in the 98/06 era while banging goals at crazy rates. Zidane playing like Zidane and banging like Ronaldo/Trezeguet/Henry etc...
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But Messi is not a genius at every other thing on the pitch though is he? Football isn't only goals and skill on the ball. He has more ability on the ball than Cristiano and the same number of goals but it's not like football's just that. Football is counterattacks, set pieces, athleticism, defending, versatility, etc. too. It's not that simple
 
It's pretty simple. Messi has had higher peak seasons that no player will ever do again. Ronaldo has been the better player over the length of the careers.

Goal machine, pace, shots, skills, two leagues, better for country in a worse team.

For me, peak Messi is GOAT. If I could have one player for their entire career? It would be Ronaldo
 
Zii said:
It's pretty simple. Messi has had higher peak seasons that no player will ever do again. Ronaldo has been the better player over the length of the careers.

Goal machine, pace, shots, skills, two leagues, better for country in a worse team.

For me, peak Messi is GOAT. If I could have one player for their entire career? It would be Ronaldo
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Two leagues isn't relevant. As if Messi would struggle in the EPL. And Ronaldo hasn't been better for the NT either. The rest is just there for the sake of it. As if Messi isn't a goal machine or doesn't have pace. In fact Messi has obviously been the better player over the course of their careers by being better in so many aspects. With regards to goalscoring they're equals. It's the other stuff (playmaking, passing, touch, dribbling) where Messi elevates himself to a different level which is hard to see replicated again let alone one of his peers having reached (which he hasn't and won't ever).

If it's a mere stat war then sure.
 
Stack said:
God these stat wars are so tedious. The stats really dont tell us that much because 99% of the time they lack context, situation, environment, atmosphere etc etc etc. A stat doesnt tell you how beautiful a shoulder drop, change of direction and pace combined with an amazing 1st touch was or how it led to a shot on goal 5 passes later.

Whatever happened to people being able to watch, understand and appreciate brilliance and genius when its placed in front of them?
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Because it is the only thing Ronaldo fans can basically resort to (and rightly so because stats are important) when talking about him. They're incredible players, one has more natural talent and is easier on the eye. The other is a machine.
 
serghei said:
I ask myself the same things when I hear people saying Ronaldo is better than Messi.
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This is what I imagine whenever I hear someone say that the best player in the world plays for Argentina.

DD8.jpg
 
amolbhatia50k said:
Two leagues isn't relevant. As if Messi would struggle in the EPL.
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Of course doing it in two leagues is relevant. It shows you can excel in different circumstances. Messi wouldn't have been awful in the Premier League obviously but he might not have done as well. Not because of the style of the opposing teams beause obviously he's faced them in the CL, but because of the style of his own team. Ronaldo won 3 Premier Leagues in a row and went to 2 CL finals in a row and moved to a team that had stayed in second place and hadn't reached the CL quarters in 7 seasons to face a team that had just won the treble. Messi decided to stay with the same teammates, structure, style of play, etc. Of course one deserves more praise than the other for it.

amolbhatia50k said:
And Ronaldo hasn't been better for the NT either.
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How has he not?

amolbhatia50k said:
The rest is just there for the sake of it. As if Messi isn't a goal machine or doesn't have pace. In fact Messi has obviously been the better player over the course of their careers by being better in so many aspects. With regards to goalscoring they're equals. It's the other stuff (playmaking, passing, touch, dribbling) where Messi elevates himself to a different level which is hard to see replicated again let alone one of his peers having reached (which he hasn't and won't ever).
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So are those the only things that matter then? What about all the other stuff you left out? I could just as easily say 'With regards to goalscoring they're equals. It's the other stuff (athleticism, counterattacking, heading, weak foot ability, poaching, movement) where Ronaldo elevates himself to a different level which is hard to see replicated again let alone one of his peers having reached (which he hasn't and won't ever).' And Ronaldo is a lot more superior in the things I mentioned than Messi to Ronaldo in the things you mentioned. You can't just select the things Messi is better at and ignore the rest.
 
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Keeping aside the jokes and reading the discussion I would say Messi has been the better performer, individually, for his team in the league this season being the top scorer and he's going to win Copa del Rey. That's quite remarkable given the bad season Barcelona are having but is not like Ronaldo had a dreadful season tiers below Messi and he's currently having a better UCL campaign.
 
Ronaldo also can function in the prem where we get fecked over in Europe fixture wise. He carried us to another level in a different league, you can't not factor that in. 40 goal season In the prem, triple titles etc. To ignore it is daft
 
kouroux said:
Because it is the only thing Ronaldo fans can basically resort to (and rightly so because stats are important) when talking about him. They're incredible players, one has more natural talent and is easier on the eye. The other is a machine.
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This machine thing is a very clear indication to me that someone hasnt a clue at all.
 
Peyroteo said:
Of course doing it in two leagues is relevant. It shows you can excel in different circumstances. Messi wouldn't have been awful in the Premier League obviously but he might not have done as well. Not because of the style of the opposing teams beause obviously he's faced them in the CL, but because of the style of his own team. Ronaldo won 3 Premier Leagues in a row and went to 2 CL finals in a row and moved to a team that had stayed in second place and hadn't reached the CL quarters in 7 seasons to face a team that had just won the treble. Messi decided to stay with the same teammates, structure, style of play, etc. Of course one deserves more praise than the other for it.



How has he not?



So are those the only things that matter then? What about all the other stuff you left out? I could just as easily say 'With regards to goalscoring they're equals. It's the other stuff (athleticism, counterattacking, heading, weak foot ability, poaching, movement) where Ronaldo elevates himself to a different level which is hard to see replicated again let alone one of his peers having reached (which he hasn't and won't ever).' And Ronaldo is a lot more superior in the things I mentioned than Messi to Ronaldo in the things you mentioned. You can't just select the things Messi is better at and ignore the rest.
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Ronaldo hasnt been better for Portugal than Messi has, realistically Messi has gotten them to three finals in a row and Ronaldo got them to two you could say, luckily for him they also won it in the final.
 
for Messi, moving to another league would be pointless today. there's really nowhere left for him to go except to premier league and it's not like we are talking about Serie A from the '90s. these days you have D. Luiz and G. Cahill in premier league team of the year and the defenders I personally rate as the best, Bailly and Alderweireld, came from Spain.

Chelsea don't even need players of his quality to dominate the EPL so it wouldn't be much of achievement if he went there tomorrow, and if he went to City, his main doubters would probably say that the "different circumstances" argument doesn't apply here because he plays in familiar surrounding under Guardiola yet again.

if he really wanted to prove a point, for me he would have to move to Arsenal, Liverpool or Tottenham. we wouldn't learn anything new if he just went to another dominating team, imo.
 
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Sammyjunn said:
Ronaldo hasnt been better for Portugal than Messi has, realistically Messi has gotten them to three finals in a row and Ronaldo got them to two you could say, luckily for him they also won it in the final.
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It's different to take Portugal to a Euro final than Argentina to a Copa America or even World Cup final. No Cristiano and we wouldn't have even made half the tournaments we've been to in this time. It will take a very very long time before Portugal has a 12 year period this successful again.
 
Sammyjunn said:
Ronaldo hasnt been better for Portugal than Messi has, realistically Messi has gotten them to three finals in a row and Ronaldo got them to two you could say, luckily for him they also won it in the final.
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Two? :confused:
 
Peyroteo said:
It's different to take Portugal to a Euro final than Argentina to a Copa America or even World Cup final. No Cristiano and we wouldn't have even made half the tournaments we've been to in this time. It will take a very very long time before Portugal has a 12 year period this successful again.
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Neither guy carried either NT to a final, ever. The closest is Messi in 2015 and Cris in 2016, but again...neither guy carried the team all the way
 
Peyroteo said:
It's different to take Portugal to a Euro final than Argentina to a Copa America or even World Cup final. No Cristiano and we wouldn't have even made half the tournaments we've been to in this time. It will take a very very long time before Portugal has a 12 year period this successful again.
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Same goes for Messi, it's different but Euro Cup not neccessarily harder. Argentina are shite without him.
 
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