Lionel Messi - Performances

Winning a Euro's that he had basically had no impact in?

Don't forget tearing Malta or whoever apart.

European countries play against so many weak nations on a regular basis. Gibraltar being the latest to be added to the list for boosting top players international goal scoring records.
 
Winning a Euro's that he had basically had no impact in?

I'm not turning this in to a Ronaldo vs Messi debate. From Euro 2004 onwards one has had a better international career than the other. Especially considering the quality of the countries footballing ability.
 
Don't forget tearing Malta or whoever apart.

European countries play against so many weak nations on a regular basis. Gibraltar being the latest to be added to the list for boosting top players international goal scoring records.


Ahh right so now the capability of these little clubs come in to question.. So the fact that Messi plays against a pointless Grenada 2 to 3 times a year doesn't boost his goal scoring tally?
 
It's also a lot about luck which is what Portugal had in spades in the Euros. I thought the Ronaldo vs Messi debate had been settled several years ago?

Never said anything about who was better just saying I agree that Ronaldo has more mental strength whilst Messi is more technical.
 
Ahh right so now the capability of these little clubs come in to question.. So the fact that Messi plays against a pointless Grenada 2 to 3 times a year doesn't boost his goal scoring tally?

Not when Ronaldo plays those same teams, in fact he racks a lot of goals against them too, like Messi

But Argentina doesn't have San Marino, Andorra, Liechstein or Malta caliber teams in their group, in international games Messi can't get a poker against Andorra and call it a day
 
I'm not turning this in to a Ronaldo vs Messi debate. From Euro 2004 onwards one has had a better international career than the other. Especially considering the quality of the countries footballing ability.

Apologies, not trolling.

Will just try to explain better what i meant.

RvN - great striker, nothing more, you wouldnt dream of calling him one of the best players of all time.

Messi - can do everything, and more - therefore - great player (2nd best of all time imo). His brilliance is based on the fact that he really can "do it all", goals, creating space by beating men, free kicks etc etc

Ronnie - Early career - great player - since 2k10 - great striker (he never tackles, runs back OR more crucially gets involved in the build up, etc so dont call him a midfielder or even wide forward)


If Aduriz scored 50 per season for 10 years - would he be comparable to Messi,no. Just my 2p - ban me if its that much of a nono.
 
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Never said anything about who was better just saying I agree that Ronaldo has more mental strength whilst Messi is more technical.

Not sure how you can say that with such certainty. Messi has proved himself to be extremely strong mentally and physically by simply being able to produce football consistently of the very highest standard against top opposition for years. Both of them are mentally strong imo - you do not become one of the best players in world football without a strong mentality.
 
Not when Ronaldo plays those same teams, in fact he racks a lot of goals against them too, like Messi

But Argentina doesn't have San Marino, Andorra, Liechstein or Malta caliber teams in their group, in international games Messi can't get a poker against Andorra and call it a day

But he hasn't. Ronaldo has played in other leagues. Either way when you move past qualifications where both teams have had no trouble.. Argentina go up against Brazil & who else? Mexico? Chile?

Portugal have to go up against Germany, Italy, England, Spain etc etc.

Why you lot get very defensive about hm is very weird.
 
Especially considering we saw Ronaldo grow up here - we out of anyone should know his mental strength is beyond comparable.

Again technically I would say Messi is superior.
 
But he hasn't. Ronaldo has played in other leagues. Either way when you move past qualifications where both teams have had no trouble.. Argentina go up against Brazil & who else? Mexico? Chile?

Portugal have to go up against Germany, Italy, England, Spain etc etc.

Why you lot get very defensive about hm is very weird.

Probably because you state things as fact and then dismiss anybody making any points to counterbalance your view?
 
Probably because you state things as fact and then dismiss anybody making any points to counterbalance your view?

But saying Ronaldo plays against San Marino when the best team Argentina can play is Mexico apart from Brazil is clearly leaning to one side.
 
But he hasn't. Ronaldo has played in other leagues. Either way when you move past qualifications where both teams have had no trouble.. Argentina go up against Brazil & who else? Mexico? Chile?

Portugal have to go up against Germany, Italy, England, Spain etc etc.

Why you lot get very defensive about hm is very weird.

Also plays with Di Maria, Aguero, Mascherano, Higuaín, Dybala
 
But saying Ronaldo plays against San Marino when the best team Argentina can play is Mexico apart from Brazil is clearly leaning to one side.

The overall standard of international teams in South America and Europe is probably similar however he does have a point that there are MANY more teams in Europe who are of a relatively low standard - of course this is due to there simply being many more countries in Europe but it doesnt make the argument any less valid.
 
Also plays with Di Maria, Aguero, Mascherano, Higuaín, Dybala

Exactly. He should be the leader for that team with all the quality they have. The icing on the cake but whenever I see Argentina he looks just as good as everybody else. Ronaldo for Portugal might not have the best game like the Euro final but he sure acted like the leader in that game playing through injury and everything.
 
Exactly. He should be the leader for that team with all the quality they have. The icing on the cake but whenever I see Argentina he looks just as good as everybody else. Ronaldo for Portugal might not have the best game like the Euro final but he sure acted like the leader in that game playing through injury and everything.

You keep bringing this Messi thread back to Ronaldo, I really wish you would give it a rest.
 
EDIT: Performance. If Higuain scores against germany, messi still doesn't reach maradona's pelé's level. If Messi scored against germany, then he would have. To be considered as good as Maradona, he'd have to put together a WC run comparable to Diego's 1986.


I agree

If he put together a run like 1986 surely he would be cemented as better than Diego? He would have matched the fabled tournament performance on top of monstrous club career.
 
The overall standard of international teams in South America and Europe is probably similar however he does have a point that there are MANY more teams in Europe who are of a relatively low standard - of course this is due to there simply being many more countries in Europe but it doesnt make the argument any less valid.

Then we could consider the size of Portugal as a nation to Argentina's never mind the quality of players they produce per generation.

Anyway this is going on a tangent. Just my two cents - Messi is probably the most technical capable player I have ever seen but that doesn't make him have his weaknesses.
 
No point arguing with people who prefer Ronaldo tbh, argument is getting boring. You just have to watch them play to see who is superior.
 
Exactly. He should be the leader for that team with all the quality they have. The icing on the cake but whenever I see Argentina he looks just as good as everybody else. Ronaldo for Portugal might not have the best game like the Euro final but he sure acted like the leader in that game playing through injury and everything.

You need to consider the fact that Messi cannot get into Di Maria, Aguero or Higuain bodies and make'em play well with the NJ jersey. All of those are hated here, they have never shown up.

We didn't have an Eder to come and save Messi's ass. Ronaldo did. Maradona did with Burruchaga back in 1986.

If someone shines with the Argentina Jersey since 2012, it's Messi.

la-renuncia-de-messi-a-la-seleccion-2227556w620.jpg
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That's the resume of the last final.



Btw: If you see Messi as good as anybody else in Argentina, then I'm sure you don't watch Argentina matches. Just go and see the points Argentina has won with and without Messi, even having all those incredible, supertalented players.
 
I did. In fact, everytime I saw him being man-marked, he struggled to get into the game. The reason teams don't do it often is because most of the time they can't afford to(and also it's just not done anymore...). Especially at Barcelona.

And they can't afford to put a man marking Messi because even when you do that Messi can turn it into this




Balenziaga was marking Messi by the book that day, he was constantly behind him, he fouled him, he marked his territory and other players were helping cover for him.

If you remember that game, a couple minutes before that goal Balenziaga did a rather harsh foul on Messi and you could notice how in Leo's face how annoyed he became after that, he turned that frustation into one of his best goals and the opener in a final. For a guy that fades when man-marked and lacks the mental strenght of Ronaldo he sure did a number on Bilbao's defenders anyway.

But I think I can guess where your idea comes, one or two games where Pepe was played as a DM against Barcelona with the task of marking Messi, and he succeeded those times, the problem with that is that those days the rest of the team sucked and even the best player in the world can't deliver 100% everyday even when the rest of the team crumbles, a lot of theories on how to mark Messi have been on the table, "personal mark", "2-men mark", "zonal mark", "cover his left side and make him go right", "put a bully behind him and annoy him with fouls", some of them have worked because he's not always at his best form, but all of those tactics have backfired when Messi beated them and found 3 meters of clear space ahead him.


That same logic also fails to stop Ronaldo, yeah his strongest game comes from running with spaces and quick football, but even if you park the bus and make him play as a static striker he's still good enough to score 3 goals on a good day, you solved nothing. Remember when Chico Flores disabled Xavi for a whole game in '09? He sure made his name known for that and got him to places he probably didn't belong, but he wasn't that special, and when other players tried to replicate that Xavi and his team had already figured a way to beat man-marking, Ronaldo and Messi are not one trick ponies and you can't stop them or diminish their influence by using an archaic tactic over and over again.
 
But he hasn't. Ronaldo has played in other leagues. Either way when you move past qualifications where both teams have had no trouble.. Argentina go up against Brazil & who else? Mexico? Chile?

Portugal have to go up against Germany, Italy, England, Spain etc etc.

Why you lot get very defensive about hm is very weird.

Argentina only has qualifications for the world cup, but in those qualifications they always have to play against Brazil, and then as you said they face Chile, Uruguay, Colombia or Paraguay, squads that have potential to be QF's every world cup, then you have Venezuela, Ecuador or Bolivia, those teams are no pushovers if you count the fact that when you play in Bolivia you'll do it in La Paz, 3k meters above sea level.


Portugal have 2 qualifiers for both WC and EC, but seed system will almost guarantee they don't play another superpower in that stage, and at worst they'll end up with one team on their level and another challenger, they faced Albania, Denmark, Serbia and Armenia in their EC qualifyers, you think any of those teams would challenge Urugua, Chile or Colombia? I don't think so, not even Bolivia in their stadium.

If we go to the 2014 qualifying Portugal faced Russia, Israel, Azerbaijan, Northern Ireland and Luxembourg and still had to go to the second round against Sweden, you're saying those teams are stronger than the south american ones? :lol:. I'd like to see the Messi hating arguments if Argentina failed to lead that group.

As I have to say everytime here, I'm being defensive with him because people are telling half the story in both ends of this debate to look for a comparison that should be off the table. I wouldn't compare Luis Suarez whole career to Cristiano, even if he managed to score more 2 or 3 seasons, so what I don't get is why people have to bring up Cristiano anytime people talk about Messi, he has the same reason to be at his level as Gerd Müller had to be with Pelé and Maradona, yet I've never seen in my life anyone bringing Müller to those heights and we're constantly reminded of Ronaldo when someone mentions Messi
 
Ronaldo is a great player, close to or maybe even edging into the top 10 of all time.

Messi is simply the greatest player ever to wear a pair of football boots, it's been a joy too watch a player of his God given ability.
 
If he put together a run like 1986 surely he would be cemented as better than Diego? He would have matched the fabled tournament performance on top of monstrous club career.
Possibly. Probably.
 
Except that it is the other way round

Yeah, Messi's international career is actually pretty good at this stage. How many other players have reached 4 international finals, being the key player in 3 of the 4? Beckenbauer played in 4, Muller played in 3, Pele played in 3, Maradona played in 2, C.Ronaldo played in 2, Cruyff played in 1, di Stefano played in 1, Best played in 0, Eusébio played in 0...of course you have to place things within the contexts of the teams they played in, but even with that I think he's done well. Although I do think it's fair to say that his four losses point to a fairly significant limitation when compared against someone like Beckenbauer.
 
Winning a Euro's that he had basically had no impact in?

I dont "hate" Ronaldo but, to me, it feels like he has gained respect from the first years of his career (before he became goals obsessed) - and carried that through. So much so that even though he's now not much more than a poacher he is mentioned in the same sentence as Messi (which is madness - the gap is huge)

It feels like he is seen as a great forward, with all the things that entails, when in reality he's a great striker.

Ill get pelters, i know.

No impact in? I know there are some strong haters in this thread, and I am not disagreeing that he isn't one of the best performer in the tournament. But for feck sake he is still the top goalscorer/assist for his team, scoring crucial goals in crucial matches, I am sure there is at least "some" impact/contribution .
Apologies, not trolling.

Will just try to explain better what i meant.

RvN - great striker, nothing more, you wouldnt dream of calling him one of the best players of all time.

Messi - can do everything, and more - therefore - great player (2nd best of all time imo). His brilliance is based on the fact that he really can "do it all", goals, creating space by beating men, free kicks etc etc

Ronnie - Early career - great player - since 2k10 - great striker (he never tackles, runs back OR more crucially gets involved in the build up, etc so dont call him a midfielder or even wide forward)


If Aduriz scored 50 per season for 10 years - would he be comparable to Messi,no. Just my 2p - ban me if its that much of a nono.

I don't know who's Aduriz, but if some random player scored 50 per season for 10 years in top flight football (has to be best league in world/europe), I think he is very likely to be considered GOAT, simply because no one ever in the history of football achieve such feat, or anywhere near to that. (same goes for if someone won 4 WC in future, and scoring 30 goals in WC, I think its very likely that he will be considered GOAT too)
 
I don't know who's Aduriz, but if some random player scored 50 per season for 10 years in top flight football (has to be best league in world/europe), I think he is very likely to be considered GOAT, simply because no one ever in the history of football achieve such feat, or anywhere near to that. (same goes for if someone won 4 WC in future, and scoring 30 goals in WC, I think its very likely that he will be considered GOAT too)


Klose is not considered GOAT.

With your agument, Maradona shouldn't be GOAT. Or Di Stefano. Or Cruyff. Or Zidane. They didn't score that much goals...
 
Di Stefano, Maradona and Cruyff scored a lot actually
 
Messi does stuff that no other player can do, it's not the same for Ronaldo for who much of his game is based around physical power combined with very good technique.
 
Also plays with Di Maria, Aguero, Mascherano, Higuaín, Dybala
Dybala's sample size is still too small to conclude anything, but out of others you mentioned, only Mascherano shows up consistently when he plays for the national team. Higuain shows up occasionally, but as we all know he goes missing when it matters the most.
 
No point arguing with people who prefer Ronaldo tbh, argument is getting boring. You just have to watch them play to see who is superior.
Pretty much this. If you watch both of them play there is no contest to be made who is better.

I wouldn't even call it a close call as messi is several levels above.
 
Di Maria was pretty great in both the WC and 2015 Copa America, unfortunately he got injured in both and missed the finals. Argentina and Messi really missed him in those games
 
Di Maria was pretty great in both the WC and 2015 Copa America, unfortunately he got injured in both and missed the finals. Argentina and Messi really missed him in those games

We are tired of him. Not only because he is playing really bad atm, but also because we're tired of him getting injured.
 
Di Maria was pretty great in both the WC and 2015 Copa America, unfortunately he got injured in both and missed the finals. Argentina and Messi really missed him in those games
He was a ball hog and ball stopper in both tournaments tbh. Rarely passed or put in a decent cross whenever he got the ball in the final third. Sometimes it worked, most of the times it didn't.
 
He was a ball hog and ball stopper in both tournaments tbh. Rarely passed or put in a decent cross whenever he got the ball in the final third. Sometimes it worked, most of the times it didn't.
He was the only player other than messi who made things happen. When he went down with the injury in the WC, argentina became too reliant on messi.
 
He was the only player other than messi who made things happen. When he went down with the injury in the WC, argentina became too reliant on messi.
While that's true, that's a low bar you're setting for having a good tournament.
 
His career is littered with such performances.
Against top defenses? Most of his great 'big games' were against Madrid both in league and the CL and their defense hasn't been rated as the best of this generation at any point. What we actually have is different instances of Messi countering a proper mean organised defense and absolutely tearing it apart. Chelsea (multiple times), Inter and Atletico Madrid are the toughest defenses he has faced and he has been contained by all of them. e.g. Luis Ronaldo tore Nesta apart when they were playing in Serie A, and those great defenses that Messi faced are a shade on the Italian backlines of 80s and 90s that the likes of Maradona, van Basten and Ronaldo regularly had to face. Just watch the Napoli vs Juventus games from Maradona's Serie A days to see what an absolute cnut both physically and in terms of organisation those defenders were, a time when defending was about destroying the opposition's attack and defenders were picked based on being hard men who'd kick the opponent around rather than their passing and technical skills, like today.

It's a pretty fair conclusion that Messi doesn't have a great record against the best defenses of his generation. Compare that to





(p.s. this argument applies to all attackers of this generation, this is a very, very forward friendly era and a lot of these numbers are inflated and Messi has obviously been the best compared to other attackers of the last decade, but in an all time context it doesn't compare well.)
 
Against top defenses? Most of his great 'big games' were against Madrid both in league and the CL and their defense hasn't been rated as the best of this generation at any point. What we actually have is different instances of Messi countering a proper mean organised defense and absolutely tearing it apart. Chelsea (multiple times), Inter and Atletico Madrid are the toughest defenses he has faced and he has been contained by all of them. e.g. Luis Ronaldo tore Nesta apart when they were playing in Serie A, and those great defenses that Messi faced are a shade on the Italian backlines of 80s and 90s that the likes of Maradona, van Basten and Ronaldo regularly had to face. Just watch the Napoli vs Juventus games from Maradona's Serie A days to see what an absolute cnut both physically and in terms of organisation those defenders were, a time when defending was about destroying the opposition's attack and defenders were picked based on being hard men who'd kick the opponent around rather than their passing and technical skills, like today.

It's a pretty fair conclusion that Messi doesn't have a great record against the best defenses of his generation. Compare that to





(p.s. this argument applies to all attackers of this generation, this is a very, very forward friendly era and a lot of these numbers are inflated and Messi has obviously been the best compared to other attackers of the last decade, but in an all time context it doesn't compare well.)

Yes and no. He has hurt Atletico plenty of times but because he faces them a lot there are bound to be games where he couldn't beat them. In this case, the criticism would be that Atletico beat him in 2 CL-campaigns (13/14 and 15/16) and that this weighs more than league matches where Messi did well against Atletico.
Also, what does containment really mean with regards to Chelsea for example? It's not like he wasn't threatening against Chelsea, he just didn't manage to score.
 
While that's true, that's a low bar you're setting for having a good tournament.
Mh, indeed. I'm conflating the switzerland game with the other 3 games he played. He wasn't great in the group stage