Seriously? His ability to stand his ground and keep control of the ball is unmatched.
Lionel Messi - Performances
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He isn't weak and he is hard to get the ball from, especially because of his low center of gravity, but you won't see him physically bully opponents like Ibra does for us now
What you're talking about I'd still classify as his skills in controlling the ball. The physical duels I'm talking about are of a different kind
(although he did kick Maicon's tooth out one time)
Paul Scholes said:
Messi is really strong, of course he can't bully guys like Ibra does, but it's not like every small guy can handle defenders like him.
Well, I wouldn't say that body mass is that important aspect of offensive game, cause your perception of strength boils up to that. Nor heading ability, for that matter. Those are useful qualities, but playmaking, scoring and dribbling are most important by far IMO. Anyone can see players of old today. Even more than before since coverage was scarce back then. And I just can't see anyone as good as Messi.
Ok... the tackling on the Suarez goal is ridiculously poor. Inesta cleanly beats 3 guys prior to Messi getting the ball.
And the other goal is in the 90th minute against a tired team trying to attack.
We all know Messi is a cut above... But I don't quite get the fawning over he's been getting over this.
Again, what are you saying is that Messi's skills in playmaking, scoring and dribbling make him the best ever - and I never disputed that. But there were a few attackers who I'd definitely call more complete - at least two, Pele and Cruyff. The likes of Gullit or Ronaldinho were more complete too, for example, even though there weren't as good.
Well it depends what do you classify under physical duels, if he wins most of his duels and holds the ball against players that are on first glance physically much stronger then him then id say he excels in physical battles. Plenty of players have low center of gravity but you dont see them dominating physical battles like Messi. He isnt the only one dont get me wrong but id say he is in minority if you look at the whole group.
You can see a bit of both really, some duels he wins because he is strong while others he wins because of his low center of gravity and pace. In my book he does it enough to put that segment of the game as one of his strengths and not weaknesses.
He doesn't even enter most - and I don't expect him to win a loose ball in 50/50. Most of the times he doesn't need it and his movement and close control allows him to ignore that aspect of the game, but when we're talking about the most complete attacker ever, I have to count this ability too.
In Pele's days, individual defending was harsh. You were kicked out of your wits. But the referee wouldn't give you a thing. These days referees afford more protection to players, perhaps brought on by play-acting and diving(Messi doesn't do that though). You needed to be strong back then which Pele was.
On the flip side of things, collective defending is a whole new barrier nowadays. Teams are way more organized. Defensive players press together covering for each other leaving positions. I'd say you'd need good dribbling and quickness of thought more. Messi wins here.
On the flip side of things, collective defending is a whole new barrier nowadays. Teams are way more organized. Defensive players press together covering for each other leaving positions. I'd say you'd need good dribbling and quickness of thought more. Messi wins here.
I agree there is definitely an argument for the likes of Cruyff and Gullit as most complete players overall. They were able to play multiple roles and positions on pitch. But as an offensive force, Ronaldinho at his best edges both IMO, and Messi all of them. Hence my argument for him being most complete offensive player.
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Think about it. He dribbled 4 defenders inside the space of a small bathroom in a cheap apartment. That is a rare feat that no other player can do at this level. Sure, Hazard, Sanchez, Iniesta can dribble in short spaces nicely, but they don't dribble almost half a team at once like Messi does. Messi has an unmatched ability of making a great dribbling run even more spectacular. He is the kind of player that can dribble half a team at once.
And I don't think Espanyol players are sleeping in their boots. They look pretty sharp to me, which is the reason why after 4 dribbles Messi still can't shoot freely.
My first thought too, honestly.
Watch the Messi videos from when he was 5 years of age, a freak of nature from when he was old enough to kick a ball. An absolutely unique ability to unlock space like no one else
GOAT, that is all.
If you don't understand the "fawning" over another phenomenal performance by the best player the world has ever seen, then you don't really understand football, do you?
You're right in a way but not completely, Messi is the best dribbler of all time but someone like Hazard can and has done that before, look at the most dribbles in the last few years, he has always been at the top sometimes above Messi.
No, i meant big games. And i didn't say messi hasn't been good in big games. Just that the other two were better
Conversely, the rules and refereeing have also changed, going from being excessively skewed towards the defence to slightly skewed in favour of the offense. Individual quality of defenders is also at an all-time low
Agreed. I have tried to discuss in the first paragraph of my post.
I still think it's more difficult to dribble and get out of trouble if you have 2-3 players approaching you and suffocating your workable space, which is the case today. It is less so if defenders stand off of you and let you run at them
Very well put!
When Messi goes down it's a foul every time, even when he dives. Every other foul on him is a yellow card. He's so protected by the refs that players are scared to even touch him.
He's a great player, probably the best in this generation, but I'm trying to imagine him 30 years ago and it's just not happening. For me he's got nothing on Maradona. No one has.
I have only seen Messi once live which was the Argentina vs Portugal friendly at Old Trafford. Not the best game i know but there was one moment where in a flash he went past a player and nearly scored when it hit the post. I just thought to myself wow how did he manage that.
Must be a joy to Barca fans who get to see him week in week out working his magic.
As a match going fan you want bits of magic during games which you can then talk about with friends and family.
Must be a joy to Barca fans who get to see him week in week out working his magic.
As a match going fan you want bits of magic during games which you can then talk about with friends and family.
To be blunt, that's a load of bollocks.
My only criticism towards Messi is he has become too casual. He doesn't play with the same intensity and anger as between 2008-2012 and the 14/15 season. Being anonymous against Real but then good against Osasuna and Espanyol doesn't cut it for me. I want to see Messi bossing big games again but like I said, he's become too casual this season.
He was casual last season too.
That injury he picked up last season seems to have dented his explosion/mobility even more. He's already lost something compared to 2011, but he was excellent in 14-15 adapting to rely more on guile with still great explosion and mobility. That injury early last season might have had a lasting effect.
Also, I think you can argue his position has changed from 2014-2015 too. Not that Messi was only on the right flank that season, but he definitely wanders more and more centrally now and their right flank is left unoccupied. And since his mobility isn't what it used to be, I think it hurts him at times.
http://www.totalbarca.com/2016/12/messis-lack-position-breaking-system-clasico-thoughts-gifs/
I thought this article had good points.
Still , easily, the best player in the world.
Past his best now for mine, but still CREATING goals by going past people (which is completely different to comparing assists , hell even Rooney has 8 this season fgs).
He doesn't need a chance, he makes the chance.
Response below says Maradona had one man at a time on him......Italy, mid to late 80's....no. Just no.
He would be brutally, and tightly marked by up to 3 men, just like Messi.
Past his best now for mine, but still CREATING goals by going past people (which is completely different to comparing assists , hell even Rooney has 8 this season fgs).
He doesn't need a chance, he makes the chance.
Response below says Maradona had one man at a time on him......Italy, mid to late 80's....no. Just no.
He would be brutally, and tightly marked by up to 3 men, just like Messi.
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1 - Messi rarely goes down because of a foul. He gets fouled a lot of times and he still goes on. And he rarely dives. Don't know what you say about the 'every other foul' part. And this has nothing to do with his football.
2- Maradona would struggle more today, since as you noticed the game has changed. Maradona was kicked a lot not only because the players had 'permission' from the refs, but also because there weren't much defensive sistems. Maradona was marked by one defender at time. A clear example of that kind of defense is his goal against England. And of course, being one on one against him....you just can try kicking him. He was used to it, he used to jump before facing a rival so the kick wouldn't hurt him seriously. That's something you can get used to. Today the defenders are not only way faster, but also there are sstems in which guys like Messi are marked by up to three guys at the same time, or one waiting behind the other but closely. If you go one on one against Messi..it's like with Diego.
But Messi is more complete for me. He's quicker, has a better vision, better playmaking skills and of course is better scoring goals. Maradona was a genius of course, he had everything too and had other things Messi didn't have.
But that thing about the defenses is a typical argentinian smoke selling argument
Ummm.... Where are his abs then? Bro he's a midget too... Do you even see him ever taking his shirt off after scoring?
Another stupid Messi fanboy destroyed. Case closed.
Not at all like Messi. At least one of those 3 would have been ordered to shadow him even in the sh*tter, and they'd systematically brutalize him. Messi never had to deal with Gentile, Bergomi or Baresi spending 90 minutes trying to slow him down by punching him in the ribs
You clearly don't know what type of player Baresi was, nor Bergomi for that matter, when you take them as examples of such type of defending. And actually, Messi doesn't shy away from physical aspect of game, and handles fouls well. The way some people talk about 'old days', one would think players spent more time on stretchers than on the pitch, because of brutality of tackles. It wasn't anything like that. In fact, players of today are better physically prepared and more resistant to injuries, so they would arguably handle rough tackles even better. (Although there are being overplayed and game is becoming extremely physically demanding, so that plays into getting more injuries.)
Anyway, Messi would thrive if he had a single player assigned to him compared to being closed down by organized and athletic defences.
Anyway, Messi would thrive if he had a single player assigned to him compared to being closed down by organized and athletic defences.
there was a distance of 2-3 meters between each defender. If you expect to stop Maradona or Messi like that when they are fit...start packing. You can tell in this video how time or space to think what to do he had, and he was a genius. His mind was faster than anyonein his mind, so is Messi's mind now (but now the game is quicker). That's too much adventage for someone like him. It wouldn't happen nowadays.
No, I wasn't using them as examples, I used them because they repeatedly admitted to doing that against maradona
Btw, gentile wasn't that type of defender either. Maradona forced them all to do that, because that was the only way they had a chance to so much as slow him down
Messi's no fragile flower, granted, but we have no way of knowing how he'd have coped in the 80s because he never had to, and never will. And it is a fact that football was harder for forwards in the 80s than it is now.
Agree with the second part
Then how come Messi has repeatedly struggled against tight, aggressive and physical man-marking througout his career?
@IFC 1905 completely went over your head. The point is that goal was only possible against England. You were using the one exception to the rule to make your point
He never struggles in 1 on 1 situations. 1 on 1 he is basically unstopabble. He is regularly closed down by multiple defenders though, generally quicker and more athletic than back in the days, when that type of organized defending was not present. Even in that difficult context, he excels at dribbling past defenders. His control, quickness and instinct are unmatched, it is plain to see.
He's repeatedly struggled against man-marking. Having an opponent stuck to him all the time, anywhere on the pitch, being very aggressive and physical. It happened against colombia in the copa america 2011, against inter in the CL semifinal, against chile on copa in 2015...he doesn't do well against overly aggressive defending when he's not given the chance to shake off the defender.
It wasn't present in England. Maradona spent most of his career in Italy, and more specifically, in the greatest defensive league of all time. Modern day defending has nothing on '80s italian defending
Its hard for Madrid fans to be objective on Messi. They constantly try to undermine his talent.
The only thing you need to do is just look at him play, if his play doesn't move you as a football fan then I don't know what can, the way he dribbles, pass, touch, is just pure magic, probably will be the best player I've seen till the day I die
He is being more objective than Barcelona fans are when it comes to Ronaldo.