By other words, those are memorable games because he rarely struggles that much. Occasionally, a top defender on a very good day will get the best of him, like any other player. Most of the times he shakes off the marking and is inevitably among the most influential on the pitch, day in, day out.
Lionel Messi - Performances
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By other words, those are memorable games because he rarely struggles that much. Occasionally, a top defender on a very good day will get the best of him, like any other player. Most of the times he shakes off the marking and is inevitably among the most influential on the pitch, day in, day out.
Repeatedly. He's basically human and won't destroy teams every game. And defending in packs and employing destroyers is the natural tactic to nullify a tactic or player you can't otherwise deal with. No player is immune to the sometimes not magically defeating what in front of him. But Messi as a result of being easily the best player I've ever seen, does it better than anyone I've seen, which is logical.If you want to see players struggling more than Messi against those tactics (if teams need to employ them against them) then see every other player of this generation (or last 15 years at least).
If every other player was judged to the same standards Messi is there would be no debate on who the best ever is. Unfortunately for Messi, he's judged to ridiculous standards which is probably down to what a freak of nature he is.
Different class to anyone I've seen. One of those sportsman who redefine how good a player in that sport can possibly be. At least for me, taking into account the sample size I've seen.
He's a one man cheat code. The equivalent of getting that blue car that shoots bullets in The Age of Empires II years ago.
In the specific case, I think it has more to do with the style of football he grew up in than anything. He's not as incredible as maradona in shaking off man-marking because he didn't grow up playing against it. Man-marking has nearly completely disappeared in modern football
of course
Which is why Messi is the greatest player of the modern era. I don't think he's the greatest ever though, and that is entirely down to him not having the same force of personality and mental strength of Pelé and Maradona. Talent-wise, skill-wise, etc, he's every bit as good as them.
Very much this.
Football changes. Was Pele's era as tactically evolved as the current one? We're defenders are systematic in closing down space. I'm doubtful.
And I don't see Messi struggling against man marking. It's amazing that someone actually believes this. If this was the case it would be so easy to stop Messi but teams pretty much never are able to. You basically need to get things spot on and him to not have a great day to stop, like all the greatest sportsman in history.
I don't see any lack force of nature or personality either. You don't need to scream and shout to have that. If Pele's claim to being better in this respect is his world cups then I think the standard of the Brazilian team he played him might as well make that claim a weak one. I see these claims about other all time greats as well and don't believe it there either. Messi mauling an entire Madrid defence in the CL semi is mental strength. Messi scoring crucial winners in the CL finals and performing superbly as well is mental strength. And so on and so forth.
Finally, I'm surprised so many people here have followed the career of Pele. How old are you exactly?
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And I'm not comparing Pelé's numbers against Messi's. But you only need to watch the games from the 1966 WC to see the difference for a striker playing in that era vs the modern era.
I did. In fact, everytime I saw him being man-marked, he struggled to get into the game. The reason teams don't do it often is because most of the time they can't afford to(and also it's just not done anymore...). Especially at Barcelona.
To stop him, yes. But you can slow him down, and that's the one thing that has consistently worked in slowing him down throughout his career. Maradona and Pelé had to deal with that in every game, and unless the opponents managed to really hurt them, it didn't work. Again, I don't know how much of this is down to Messi having trouble with overly physical defending or simply not being used to it. Even when he struggled, he's generally found a way to make on or two [potentially] game-changing plays.
It's not about shouting. It's about rising to the occasion. Not suffering under pressure. In Maradona's case -and this is the reason why he's the GOAT- he didn't just not suffer under pressure, he relished it. He was outright better under pressure, and furthermore, his personality was such that it rubbed off his teammates.
Pelé was the greatest big game player ever. Granted, playing with those teammates definitely helped in that regard.
Not as big of a sample, but there's quite a bit of footage of Pelé. Complete games.
Who is he?
Both are not objective, Madrid fans about Messi, Barca fans about Ronaldo.
He is Me
Anyways, i try to be as objecrive as possible when i'm having a serious discussion. That said, it doesn't mean i'm not biased. Nobody's immune to that. But if i'm not completely objective about messi, it's not because he's a barca player, it's because I wanted and even expected him to morph into 1986 Maradona(or better) at some point with his NT, and he never did.
I know football's a team sport, but ultimately, the WC is the most important competition in the world, so it's only natural that it would carry so much more weight when judging a player's career.
And I know being biased against a player because he didn't fulfill your exectations is stupid and makes no sense, but what can i do, i'm only human afterall
Anyways, i try to be as objecrive as possible when i'm having a serious discussion. That said, it doesn't mean i'm not biased. Nobody's immune to that. But if i'm not completely objective about messi, it's not because he's a barca player, it's because I wanted and even expected him to morph into 1986 Maradona(or better) at some point with his NT, and he never did.
I know football's a team sport, but ultimately, the WC is the most important competition in the world, so it's only natural that it would carry so much more weight when judging a player's career.
And I know being biased against a player because he didn't fulfill your exectations is stupid and makes no sense, but what can i do, i'm only human afterall
He is Me
Anyways, i try to be as objecrive as possible when i'm having a serious discussion. That said, it doesn't mean i'm not biased. Nobody's immune to that. But if i'm not completely objective about messi, it's not because he's a barca player, it's because I wanted and even expected him to morph into 1986 Maradona(or better) at some point with his NT, and he never did.
I know football's a team sport, but ultimately, the WC is the most important competition in the world, so it's only natural that it would carry so much more weight when judging a player's career.
And I know being biased against a player because he didn't fulfill your exectations is stupid and makes no sense, but what can i do, i'm only human afterall
The WC argument is more to do with lighting up an international tournament rather than actually winning or does he have to replicate Maradona, Pele etc. achievement to stand shoulder to shoulder with them? For example say next WC Messi is completely average but Argentina wins it, all of a sudden that makes him as good or better? The flipside, he has the greatest ever WC performance any player has had, scoring insane goals and generally just being outstanding but Argentina lose a tight final and he goes home empty handed. Would his performance alone not elevate him?
Comparing players playing different era's is difficult to be honest, I haven't seen Maradona or Pele apart from clips online so I would never make the comparison (I was more impressed by Diego than Pele myself). In the modern era of what I myself have seen he is above all.
EDIT: Performance. If Higuain scores against germany, messi still doesn't reach
I agree
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Giorno, obviously, the only Madrid poster that was commenting in the thread before you made your post and who it seemed pretty clear you were referring to, or did you just randomly decide to post "Madrid fans cannot be objective when it comes to Messi and are always trying to undermine his talent" for no reason?
Messi has a better club career than Maradona, by a considerable margin. Didn't Maradona get eliminated from the European Cup with Napoli in the first or 2nd round?
Thing is times have changed. Club football and especially CL takes a lot from the footballers during the season, which is why star players are too tired in July to perform to the best of their abilities. A lot of them are even injured. Do you think for example Cristiano Ronaldo wasn't affected by the hard season that he had just months before the 2014 WC, fighting for the treble until the end of the season? Don't you think CL takes a lot of effort to play in and try to win it each year?
Why should Messi have to have a stellar World Cup? Did Maradona have a stellar Champions League, or at least a stellar European Cup campaign?
Thing is times have changed. Club football and especially CL takes a lot from the footballers during the season, which is why star players are too tired in July to perform to the best of their abilities. A lot of them are even injured. Do you think for example Cristiano Ronaldo wasn't affected by the hard season that he had just months before the 2014 WC, fighting for the treble until the end of the season? Don't you think CL takes a lot of effort to play in and try to win it each year?
Why should Messi have to have a stellar World Cup? Did Maradona have a stellar Champions League, or at least a stellar European Cup campaign?
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It's an interesting hypothesis, but, while I think Messi has struggled at times against some aggressive markers, I don't think it's been noticeable or repeated significantly enough or for it to be indicative of a tactic that would be more successful against him than regular modern defensive systems. Cutting off the service into him and isolating him on the pitch have in fact proven a lot more effective in recent years (the latter stages in the WC, CL knock-out rounds against Atléti).
Considering your examples: which leg of the Inter SF do you mean? The 1st leg he was usually being marked in the zone occuppied by Thiago Motta, firstly, and Cambiasso... but near the end Sneijder would drop to defend him and just a handful times Lucio came out of the backline to cover when Messi was up against only 1 of Motta/Cambiasso...
The 2nd leg was not man-to-man at all, his main markers were Zanetti and Chivu if my memory's correct -- and after Motta was sent off they simply bunkered with everyone in their own third to good effect, everything zonally.
A game that I would actually consider closest to a man-marking job on Messi was in the semi-final at Stamford Bridge in 2009, where Ashley Cole got dragged all over the pitch shadowing Messi -- and Messi pretty much got the better of him in every duel, only to be stopped by the man on the cover (Terry and Malouda alternatingly).
For Argentina, it's a whole different kettle of fish: just as much as the opponent can nullify him in international football, Argentina's system/tactics do just as good a job of that... just re-watch those two Finals against Chile and it's amazing how isolated Messi (and Higuaín) is -- his performances were just as much down to this factor than Chile's aggression and energy. Fyi, that's not me saying he shouldn't have done better, just observing what in my opinion caused it. So, again, I wouldn't personally put that down as evidence of aggressive, physical defending being some sort of solution against Messi, because just as often he will beat opponents who take this approach.
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Maradona had two months to prepare himself for the WC, if you're gonna compare you need to get into the context too. If all the players had 2-3 months to prepare together, Argentina would have way more chances. Today there is way, way more matches than in those times, and the players get to the WC not in good conditions.
You can't really compare and say that easily that Messi needs to do what Maradona did...it's foolish.
You can't really compare and say that easily that Messi needs to do what Maradona did...it's foolish.
Messi has a better club career because he played on a far better team. Individually, i don't think he's had a better club career
This is true. It's the reason why Messi was so underwhelming by his standards in '13/14. He still wilted after the round of 16
Because the WC is more important than the CL. As for Maradona, he had a stellar UEFA Cup run. Back when the UEFA Cup was the most competitive European trophy...
@Skorenzy meant the first leg against inter and i agree with most of your post. Still, as small a sample as it is, it shows that messi did struggle against it.
Btw '15 copa final messi isolated himself most of the time. In part it was a tactic to create space for his teammates, in part it was just him trying to find some space to get into the game and failing. He still had a couple moments of brilliance which would won argentina the game had lavezzi and higuain not choked them away.
Btw '15 copa final messi isolated himself most of the time. In part it was a tactic to create space for his teammates, in part it was just him trying to find some space to get into the game and failing. He still had a couple moments of brilliance which would won argentina the game had lavezzi and higuain not choked them away.
Inter and Chelsea are the obvious examples where Messi has struggled - I think he didn't have a goal against Chelsea after 6 odd games against them? - but for me the team that has handled him the best is Atletico Madrid, both in league and in Europe. Them winning the La Liga with the last game being against Barca while holding them to a 1-1 draw was absolutely fantastic. They are pretty much a blue print on how to contain a player like Messi, especially when they did it in games where Barcelona absolutely had to win with major titles on stake like that La Liga or last season's CL QF 2nd leg. Those are two of the biggest losses for Barca in recent times.
So? Maybe Maradona had a better World Cup because he also played for a better Argentina team and he didn't have an extremely tough competition like Champions League to take the best out of him year after year after year. Champions League hurts the Euro and the World Cup and the top players fight for CL with all they've got, even running the risk of missing the World Cup due to injury. This is how things are now, the Champions League has became so big that the World Cup talks don't even start before CL is over.
It's one of today's realities that the CL has reached such a level of popularity where the final actually rivals a World Cup final in terms of everything. For example, the CL final between Liverpool and Milan was as good or better than any World Cup final I've ever seen in my life.
The quality of football in CL is higher than at the World Cup. Superteams have been created now, to the point of lining up a trio that is rated at about half a billion euros. Messi took the ball from the halfway mark against a Mourinho Madrid, dribbled anyone and scored to take his team in the final. This is not any different than what Maradona did vs England. If anything Mourinho's Madrid is a better team than that England side.
Why should Maradona dribbling half of England's team be rated as better than Messi dribbling half of Madrid's team in Champions League? Doesn't make any sense. Messi consistently sets himself above every other player in the world at the highest level. He does what Maradona did only the name of the competition is different. By the time he retires, having played amazing football for 15 years will and should matter more than matching Maradona's 1986 World Cup. Maradona never gave us 10-16 years of incredible football.
And to say Maradona would've shown the same professionalism as Messi to play a decade of insane football for the same club, I'm sorry but it's not very probable. He did have problems managing his own huge success and was a cocaine addict. Messi handles himself better. His longevity is something Maradona doesn't have and maybe his casualness, and his shyness is actually what allows him to enjoy football as he did when he was 17.
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He is Me
Anyways, i try to be as objecrive as possible when i'm having a serious discussion. That said, it doesn't mean i'm not biased. Nobody's immune to that. But if i'm not completely objective about messi, it's not because he's a barca player, it's because I wanted and even expected him to morph into 1986 Maradona(or better) at some point with his NT, and he never did.
I know football's a team sport, but ultimately, the WC is the most important competition in the world, so it's only natural that it would carry so much more weight when judging a player's career.
And I know being biased against a player because he didn't fulfill your exectations is stupid and makes no sense, but what can i do, i'm only human afterall
Maybe I'm thinking of another poster, but didn't you get accused of being biased against Ronaldo as well? You can't win in a Ronaldo or Messi thread
What do you mean he had two months to prepare himself?
Maradona's last Serie A game of the season was on the 27th April and the World Cup kicked off barely a month later. Messi had just under a month of preparation for the 2014 World Cup. Maradona played significantly less games in a season than modern players now but by the time the '86 World Cup came round he was playing through injury week after week and taking a beating throughout, so the idea that his preperation was anything close to ideal is a bit of a stretch.
With regards to the intensity of modern day club competition taking the best out of the top players, I'm not convinced that is really the case. The only modern day evidence for that was the 2002 World Cup when the club calendar was more bloated with the double group stages in the CL and a mere two-week gap between the final of the CL and the start of the World Cup. It's improved upon those days and it's hard to identify many who look visibly fatigued come tournament time. The English media used it as an excuse for a few years before realising they just weren't good enough, while Xavi, Iniesta and Messi played 75 games a year and won it all or thereabouts.
If anything, it was a lot harder to be fit for a major international tournament in previous decades when the game was much more violent than it is today. Considering the superstars, Pele was brutally kicked out of 1966 having already missed out on 1962 through injury. Zico and Maradona were destroyed by Gentile and others in 1982, but still managed to plough on. In 1986 Maradona became the most fouled player in World Cup history, beating his own record set in 1982 by a country mile. By 1990, him and Van Basten were playing on one leg and got progressively more immobile as the tournament wore on. Van Basten then retired at 28 and missed out on really entrenching his own legacy with Holland in 1994 and 1996 and arguably the burgeoning Ajax side of the-mid 1990s. Then the game, quite rightly, changed, rebalanced itself and enabled attacking players to shine throughout their careers.
What you say about superteams in the CL is true. The only point I'll make is that the World Cup takes place once every four years. Throughout their careers players may only have one or two opportunities to capitalise when they're in form and not injured. That creates a lot more gravitas to a single World Cup quarter-final than to a Champions League equivalent match that takes place every season. Not only that, but today's superclubs are effectively guaranteed to reach every Champions League quarter-final stage and beyond without breaking sweat. Over the course of a career, that provides numerous opportunities for the elite club player to prove their worth on the biggest club stage of all.
I don't care about numbers. You just proved my point on there being big differences. Except you only wish to see the ones that make it easier for modern players? Pele had luxuries in his era too I'm sure.
That's rubbish. He'd be man marked every week in that case. You just appear to have drawn a lazy conclusion based on seeing Messi not win a game on his own against one or two teams and concluded he has disappointed you because he is human. Had you watched more of Pele, I reckon he'd have fell well short of your lofty expectations too.
Yeah, as if you've seen "every game" of Pele. Opponents have resorted to kicking Messi to stop him throughout his career. Like Maradona and Pele, he has bad games too. It's just that you're drawing sweeping judgements based on a small sample size. Messi struggles in the odd game and he has a big glaring weakness. Don't watch enough of the other guys and they become flawless beings who never had bad games or never struggled against a set up.
Messi rises to the occasion all the time. Except for a few finals with a completely dysfunctional team (where he usually was one of the few who played well) he's always relished the big stage. From being a nightmare for Madrid including destroying their entire team in a CL semi final to other crunch games in La Liga to CL finals.
Not an expert on Maradona, but of the footballers I've seen Messi is right there in terms of mental strength and being influential. He always wants the ball, he always takes complete responsibility.
In that case, why not consider Iniesta and Messi among the greatest big game players of all time? Taking the times they had "those team mates that helped them in that regard" they've won some 7 La Liga times and 4(?) CL's, bossing finals and semi finals.
Basically a really really really tiny sample which means squat when the differences are so negligible.
In the end, I just find it interesting that people draw some specific and definitive conclusions about things that are so hard to compare. Pele and Messi played football some 60 years apart yet people are able to compare playing with Argentina and Barca today with Brazil back then. And by watching so much more of one than the other. To me, that's quite amazing. That's where I feel perspective is lost. It's almost as if people go by a rulebook instead of actually trying to see the actual picture and all the variables. How do we know how Pele would do at a WC with todays Argentina in todays game of football? Especially when they've seen so little of him? Like I said, I find it interesting and at times perplexing. You're basically making mostly vague guesses about things and presenting them as well calculating and measured opinions.
Do the Barca fans on here know that Maradona played for them as well ? They seem to take it as a personal insult that some people suggest a former player of theirs might be as good if not better than a player on the current team.
Maybe I'm thinking of another poster, but didn't you get accused of being biased against Ronaldo as well? You can't win in a Ronaldo or Messi thread
About this, I'm not convinced that the World Cup being such a narrow sample works in the favour of it being the decider of such a complex question as who is the best ever. Playing the best football, at the best time, in the worst circumstances is not always controlable to the degree that you're absolutely sure the deciding factor is the player's ability. That if a player is the best ever, then he absolutely has to deliver his best version at this specific tournament. That is too extreme for me, especially considering the fact that Messi had a very good World Cup in 2014, he just lacked a masterful performance in the final and/or semifinal for his campaign to be seen as equal to Maradona's.
Of course he did. Just look at the surgical evisceration of the limits of man-marking brazil pulled on us in the second half of the 1970 WC final. I just think that football used to be harder on forwards before the abolition of the backward pass rule, the introduction of the 3 point system and the changes in refereeing. Replay the 1966 WC with modern rules and refs, and i'm convinced brazil wins the WC
They can't. For one thing, it would mean playing 9 vs 10 against a team with either Neymar, Suarez and Iniesta, or one with Di Maria, Higuain/Aguero. The only reason holland got away with it in the semi-final is because Di Maria was injured, and Argentina did the same thing with Robben(the WC's best player by a mile)
Also, there aren't enough players able to man-mark properly anymore
This is a fair assesment.
Not as much as Maradona imho. And I have seen enough of Maradona to say this. Both weren't always great in every big game, but Maradona had fewer bad big games, and his best big games were better than messi's
But he wilted in the biggest game of his career. He wasn't bad, he outright wilted
They are, Iniesta more than Messi.
There's enough footage, reports and comments from former players, coaches and journos to form an opinion
When you see barca play psg for the umpteenth time, it feels more like a league game than a star studded CL one off encounter.
I remember back in 1999 when we would come up against a european giant and it would feel so unique and special. These days it feels like the teams know each other too well. Of course it allows the players to be much more comfortable.
International tournaments is still a great way of taking players out their comfort zones and seeing how they handle it.. its remains the barometer of what is top top class and what isn't. Look at the way guys like Rooney, Gerrard, Lampard.. great club careers, but international football told us how good they really are. Based on pure club achievements, you'd have them on level terms of Bobby Charlton and say they were better footballers than Gascoigne etc.
European Club football is special, it really is.. but international football was the real barometer of a players class and these days, whilst it isn't the sole barometer of class, it is still a damn important indicator of how good a player really is.
Messi taking his team to a world cup final, Ronaldo taking his team to the euro championship.. for me that confirms that these two are truly great footballers for the ages.
Messi for me as great as he is, talent wise he is undoubtedly in top 3 of all time but mentally.. he has always struck me as a wee bit flaky and struggles to shine in tactically complex encounters. The fact other teams have to work so hard tactically to keep him quiet is proof of his greatness, but I wouldn't say he's had many awe-inspiring big games against defensively tough sides where he shone from start to finish.
I'd still have him just behind Pele, Maradona.
I think his longevity hurts him in a way.
Messi at 18 instilled havoc into a Mourinho Chelsea side that was extremely strong defensively back in 2005-2006. All they could do to stop him was to foul him strong and in a repeated manner, which eventualy led to their demise in the game. Great defensive Chelsea side under one of the best defensive managers of all time, couldn't cope with 18 years old Messi.
Messi did perform great against tough defensive teams too, but being around for more than a decade already, at only 29 years old, it's normal that he has had several moments where he was under his normal level against such aggresive sides. But when he will retire, and you take his best and his worst games, the difference is going to be huge. The volume of great games he will have against the toughest teams will be incredible. But you can't demand from him to make a difference every single time against strong opponents for 10-15 years. It's impossible.
If he wasn't strong mentally, he really couldn't have done what he did against Chelsea in 2006, at 18 years old, or scored a hattrick against Madrid at 19. Not possible imo.
Being around for such a long time, you are bound to experience more situations where you weren't your best version. The more you can stay at the very top in football, the more often it can happen to not be at your best at a given time.
In the end, for me, Messi's longevity at the highest level in football will be unmatched if he continues like this. And longevity coupled with consistency is what makes Messi and Ronaldo greats of the sport, with Messi being remembered higher because of the genius element that Ronaldo doesn't have to the same degree.
Messi at 18 instilled havoc into a Mourinho Chelsea side that was extremely strong defensively back in 2005-2006. All they could do to stop him was to foul him strong and in a repeated manner, which eventualy led to their demise in the game. Great defensive Chelsea side under one of the best defensive managers of all time, couldn't cope with 18 years old Messi.
Messi did perform great against tough defensive teams too, but being around for more than a decade already, at only 29 years old, it's normal that he has had several moments where he was under his normal level against such aggresive sides. But when he will retire, and you take his best and his worst games, the difference is going to be huge. The volume of great games he will have against the toughest teams will be incredible. But you can't demand from him to make a difference every single time against strong opponents for 10-15 years. It's impossible.
If he wasn't strong mentally, he really couldn't have done what he did against Chelsea in 2006, at 18 years old, or scored a hattrick against Madrid at 19. Not possible imo.
Being around for such a long time, you are bound to experience more situations where you weren't your best version. The more you can stay at the very top in football, the more often it can happen to not be at your best at a given time.
In the end, for me, Messi's longevity at the highest level in football will be unmatched if he continues like this. And longevity coupled with consistency is what makes Messi and Ronaldo greats of the sport, with Messi being remembered higher because of the genius element that Ronaldo doesn't have to the same degree.
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You serious?
His career is littered with such performances.
And Rooney, Gerrard, Lampard whilst having achieved much more in the game due to their talents and dedication have or had nowhere near the ability of Gascoigne, who is arguably England's only world class player from the last 25 years or so. Just England's luck that such gifts were bestowed on a complete lunatic.
Never seen a player like him and probably never will. I really need to watch him play live.
Crossed that one out of my bucket list few years ago now, saw him tearing apart a CL team with a brilliant individual hattrick, magical.
Never saw Pele play so can't really comment on him but I saw a fair amount of Maradona (on tv I might add) as I was growing up and he was an idol of mine (along with Best). Messi however is on a different level to any player I have seen and in my eyes the best player in the modern era - but lets face it, that probably means of all time considering how much standards have improved.
I love this post. IV been trying to say something similar but the words were not right there. Particularly in International cups - it is more about mental strength than pure talent.
That is why C Ronaldo has had a much more of an impact on the international stage than Messi has.
Winning a Euro's that he had basically had no impact in?
I dont "hate" Ronaldo but, to me, it feels like he has gained respect from the first years of his career (before he became goals obsessed) - and carried that through. So much so that even though he's now not much more than a poacher he is mentioned in the same sentence as Messi (which is madness - the gap is huge)
It feels like he is seen as a great forward, with all the things that entails, when in reality he's a great striker.
Ill get pelters, i know.
It's also a lot about luck which is what Portugal had in spades in the Euros. I thought the Ronaldo vs Messi debate had been settled several years ago?