This.
Lionel Messi - Performances
- Thread starter Rado_N
- Start date
This.
Agree with goalscorer and passer part, dribbling is debatable even though he is certainly in top tier.....
But the "problem" is, he was never all 3 in the same time, when he dominated goalscoring and dribbling segments he wasnt as good passer as he is now just like today he isnt as good at dribbling and scoring like he was before.
But nevertheless, for me he is the best ever and in worst case scenario he is in top 2 as i didnt watch Pele but i cant imagine him being as good as Messi....
I loved the way he smashed the first goal in.
Same as me really, he's the best ever from what I've seen, and I cant imagine a better footballer.
Cross generational is so hard because the pitches were different, the conditioning, even the boots were and the balls were so the flight of the ball weight of passes etc were. We'll never know I guess.
The problem is that there is no comparison.
It's sometimes a hard concept to wrap your head around, but the reality is that in professional sports, in the 40's 50's 60's and even into the 70's these guys were amateurs by todays standards. The level of nutrition, conditioning, training was virtually non-existent by the standards of today.
Guys were competing more on their raw natural talent than they were building on natural talent the way professional athletes today do. Just look at sprinting for example, in the 1950's the fastest men in the world would be beat by elite HIGH SCHOOLERS today.
Now, you can say "well what if Pele grew up in the modern game? How good would he be then?" That's a question you can't and shouldn't even speculate on. I say this because, we don't know how Pele would adapt to a system where guys are gym rats, turning their dad bods into athletic machines. The old saying "Hard work beats talent when talent refuses to work hard" is applicable here. In regards to Pele, we don't know how hard he would work in the modern game. I look at old pictures of footballers from that generation and I laugh. There is Pele, who looks like a physical specimen, and then there is everyone else, who looks like an average in shape Dad. I think that it would shock people if they knew how frequently the most talented athletes of any generation don't pan out because of that saying. They grow up the best at everything in their neck of the woods. They never have to try, and then they coast on their raw talent. Eventually they hit a level where everyone is competitive with them on natural talent, but all that is left are the guys who work their asses off, on and off the playing field.
Professional sports currently have two clearly defined eras. The olden days, and the modern era, and the modern era really begins in the late 70's early 80's depending on the sport. It's fair to compare Maradona to Messi, it is not fair to compare Pele to Messi.
In this light, the current generation of elite players are the ones who should be considered as the GOAT, because the level of play, standard of play, and level of competition is always moving upwards and onwards. Pele is the greatest of his era, no doubt, but his era wouldn't be competitive with todays.
The TLDR of this is, you can't just say "what if so and so from 70 years ago grew up today", because there is a lot more to being an elite footballer today, than just being a natural god tier talent. The most important thing is work ethic layered on top of talent and you don't know how the legends of 70 years ago would adapt to a game where their natural talent wasn't enough. Some would layer that work ethic on top, and some wouldn't we don't know which would and wouldn't. Keep the pre-modern game separate from the modern game. Let Pele reign in his era, and let Maradona and Messi battle it out in the modern game as the current GOAT contenders.
I guess there is no way to confirm that - unless the Big Clubs manage to migrate to the 'Super League' (TM). These things work in cycles and for the next few seasons, it is quite possible that the English teams will start getting into the latter stages of the CL. The gulf in quality of squads that was there last season has already reduced this summer. The teams are going to be much more evenly matched over the next couple of years. I don't like saying it, but a City - RM or a City - Barca game this season in the CL will probably be a good indicator of how far the English teams have come over 1 summer.
I really think that 3 teams will score over 85 points this season, even though the league is all competitive and all.
He's a better goalscorer than Ronaldo. Better dribbler than Iniesta and possibly a better passer than Xavi. He's absolutely absurd.
Even the goal where he slid at the ball looked like something that none of our players could do.
Messi vs Nesta
How could anyone watch the game against Celtic and not conclude he's the BPITW?
Its beyond me how some think a pure finisher (CR7) is better than a guy who does EVERYTHING so well.
Its beyond me how some think a pure finisher (CR7) is better than a guy who does EVERYTHING so well.
Well, it's the media trying to make money out of creating a comparison which is really unfair.
Ronaldo has a international trophy, Messi doesn't. There is no comparison. haha
For me it's either Messi or Maradonna as the greatest ever. Pele never played in Europe and played in some of the best Brazil teams to ever play the game.
Maradonna carrying Argentina on his back to a WC win will probably never be done again.
Maradonna carrying Argentina on his back to a WC win will probably never be done again.
Maradona had time to prepare himself for the WC. You can't compare the eras. Today players play much more games per season and have more travelling due to football/comercial business.
Messi had bad luck in 2010 since Maradona was our coach. Even an alien team would struggle with him coaching. And then in 2014 he wasn't fit due to what I said first.
Maradona had more leadership and charisma for sure, but he's also a big mouth. I prefer humble and talented people to represent our country, guys like Messi and Ginobili.
Messi had bad luck in 2010 since Maradona was our coach. Even an alien team would struggle with him coaching. And then in 2014 he wasn't fit due to what I said first.
Maradona had more leadership and charisma for sure, but he's also a big mouth. I prefer humble and talented people to represent our country, guys like Messi and Ginobili.
Why does that matter?
The Brazilian league was arguably the strongest in the world at that time.
No, it wasn't. Defensively it was a joke back in the day. You can say it was offensively but that's it. Pele is one of my top five though, but football nowadays is way different in every single aspect.
I fully agree with your Maradona points and general take on it. The Pele in Europe point doesn't ring true for me though given how he performed against the best European opposition in World Cups or with Santos. He routinely tore them to shreds. Look how he leaves perhaps the greatest European defender of all time on his arse here:
He doesn't even do anything, literally dribbles slowly forward in a straight line and Franz falls over
hardly call that putting somebody on their ass.Ye he didn't do anything special there. It looked like pretty bad defending in that clip.
He was very talented but I really don't think he had the same talent as Maradonna or Messi.
He was very talented but I really don't think he had the same talent as Maradonna or Messi.
He nutmegs him and Franz ends up on his arse. Looks pretty conclusive to me.He doesn't even do anything, literally dribbles slowly forward in a straight line and Franz falls over
He doesn't even do anything, literally dribbles slowly forward in a straight line and Franz falls over
Pele was the most stand out player in his generation no doubt but like you pointed out the athleticism and football was on a much lower level than it has been since the 90s or let alone these days. The overall quality of players imo has also increased quite a lot, I mean ffs some of the "professional" footballers back in the day were chain smokers and/or borderline alcoholics but it was possible because the game was played at an entirely different pace. Imo there is no way to tell if a player from that epoch of football would have been as outstanding as they were back in the day.
Pele was the greatest footballer of the old era of football while Mardaona and Messi are those of the modern era imo.
Great post, couldn't have said it better.
In a league of his own
D10S
Injured. Substituted after 58 mins vs Atleti.
I think it's his pubis issue.
He'll be fresh for the 2 City games then.
Luckily he'll just loose 2 matches with Barca
That Pubis injury gets me nervous. I remember kaka suffering a lot from it. If you don't recover properly, it could be really dangerous.
That Pubis injury gets me nervous. I remember kaka suffering a lot from it. If you don't recover properly, it could be really dangerous.
Yes. To bring them back to mortal levels it's like preferring Jose Callejon to Eden Hazard. Goal numbers and position very similar, but one creates for others and demands a ton of defensive attention and the other doesn't.
Ronaldo's incredible goalscoring threat seems to blind people, which would be fine if Messi wasn't as profilic but he is, so it's odd.
If ronaldo had been competing with Zidane and Messi came later, this would never have been a debate. Their numbers rivalry completely skews the fact that Messi is several levels above Ronaldo in every aspect outside of goalscoring except headers.
Messi would be one of the GOAT even with mortal numbers. Ronaldo would be figo lite with mortal numbers.
Messi would be one of the GOAT even with mortal numbers. Ronaldo would be figo lite with mortal numbers.
Because it was Celtic, in 2016.
same way messi landed boateng on his arse. get a grip. dribbling is more than stepovers.He doesn't even do anything, literally dribbles slowly forward in a straight line and Franz falls over
Surely Maradona's time was at least as close to Pele's as to Messi's? Figuratively, I mean (he's closer in age to Pele than to Messi). You might be able to compare Messi and Ronaldo fairly directly with Zidane and the first Ronaldo but to me Maradona seems to come from a very different age.
Maradona would be exactly the same today as back then. He was supremely economical in his use of the ball, and played like a mix of tevez, messi and Pirlo. 90% of his speed was mental.
I think Pele would be more like a mix of Henry and fatty ronaldo - with the implied physical limitations (and benefits pre injury) of the latter. Hard to say how he would compensate without the clear edge in athletic agility and speed.
That's the best description I've ever read.
Aye, I think that post underestimates how things have moved on even since Maradona's time.
Was at the game last night, it's amazing how easy things are for him.
Also, maybe you don't realise it watching on the T.V but in person watching him off the ball for periods, he's got a touch of the Berbatov about him, very casual and slow paced.
Also, maybe you don't realise it watching on the T.V but in person watching him off the ball for periods, he's got a touch of the Berbatov about him, very casual and slow paced.