All of these have a very low floor and they all have reputations bigger than their actual performances, none of them have played at a high level on a consistent basis and they all add absolutely terrible seasons in their careers at the exception of Lo Celso who is still young. Their players are incredibly overrated.
Lionel Messi - Performances
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All of these have a very low floor and they all have reputations bigger than their actual performances, none of them have played at a high level on a consistent basis and they all add absolutely terrible seasons in their careers at the exception of Lo Celso who is still young. Their players are incredibly overrated.
Would have loved to have seen some of these player write up before the tournament started. There's no way I will buy into Argentina having a weaker team than Portugal.
I would argue both teams are playing pretty awful football but Argentina look to have been criminally mismanaged tactically. That said, Argentina have enough players of genuine quality that I would take their squad every day over Portugal's - who essentially have a half decent defense, coupled with an ultra defensive style + CR7. Portugal are a good exmaple of a nation which knows it's limitations, doesn't try to 'play football' and, as a result ground their way to win the Euros.
I don't watch the CA reguarly but from this WC Argentina seem to me to be like a child's attacking dream team (Messi, Dybala, Higuain, Aguero) with a manager who seemingly has no interest in controlling the midfield. Given all 4 of these attackers (Messi & Aguero in particular) thrive in possession based teams it seems odd. I still have expected more from Messi however, I think the real hallmark of the GOAT will be dragging his team over the line when they have off days.
I would argue both teams are playing pretty awful football but Argentina look to have been criminally mismanaged tactically. That said, Argentina have enough players of genuine quality that I would take their squad every day over Portugal's - who essentially have a half decent defense, coupled with an ultra defensive style + CR7. Portugal are a good exmaple of a nation which knows it's limitations, doesn't try to 'play football' and, as a result ground their way to win the Euros.
I don't watch the CA reguarly but from this WC Argentina seem to me to be like a child's attacking dream team (Messi, Dybala, Higuain, Aguero) with a manager who seemingly has no interest in controlling the midfield. Given all 4 of these attackers (Messi & Aguero in particular) thrive in possession based teams it seems odd. I still have expected more from Messi however, I think the real hallmark of the GOAT will be dragging his team over the line when they have off days.
Otamendi, Fazio, Banega and Mercado are all coming off good or very good seasons at club level. And they are not overrated. Take a look at Croatia's 23 and compare to Argentina's. Are you going to tell me Croatia's goalkeepers and defenders are better than Argentina's?
He finished the season in terrible form.
I didn't compare them to Croatia, I said that they are trash. First because the players aren't good and they don't play like a team. But if you want to talk about Croatia, they play like a team and they have a very good central midfield which mitigates their lack of talent in the striking and defending areas. Argentina is a one man team, if Messi is in form they are bad but can win, if he isn't in form they are bad and will lose.
even if they are, they're still not worse than their croatian counterparts. How come Croatia's midfield can cover for their trash defence and pretty good attack, but Argentina's ridiculous collection of world-destroying attacking talents can't do the same? Argentina should not be a one man team. They should not be this bad
I'm talking about the team here when I say that they are trash, until the last post I didn't compare them to other teams. And no, a midfield will always have more importance than anything else, that's the part that support both the attack and the defense, if it's broken your team is in big trouble. You kind of made the point yourself when you mentioned that Croatia's midfield support both the attack and the defense, in the case of Argentina their useless midfield can't move the ball in the last third and it can't protect their bad defense.
On your last point, yes they probably shouldn't be this bad but they are and it's not because of Messi, unless he is actually the one picking the team. On a side note, there is a real problem with how Argentine midfielders develop in Europe, they seem to all stagnate very early and become fairly bad.
Disagree, an attack of Messi-Di Maria-Dybala-Aguero should go a long way towards supporting both the midfield and defence. Their problems have been managers, mentality and way too much focus on Messi
Their average defence and midfield options should not be dragging a team with that kind of attacking talent down like this. And of course it' probably not Messi's fault
But argentina are still one of the most talented NT around and should be one of the best. If Portugal and Croatia can compete with what they have, then there's no excuse for Argentina. Mexico just blew germany off the pitch, and they have maybe 2 or 3 players better than what argentina has at every position
Their average defence and midfield options should not be dragging a team with that kind of attacking talent down like this. And of course it' probably not Messi's fault
But argentina are still one of the most talented NT around and should be one of the best. If Portugal and Croatia can compete with what they have, then there's no excuse for Argentina. Mexico just blew germany off the pitch, and they have maybe 2 or 3 players better than what argentina has at every position
Weird thing about Messi is if you seen him play for the first time yesterday you'd still think what a player he is.
People trying to win arguments and discussions for the sake of winning are just hilarious. Be wrong. Who cares.
I agree with that part but think that they are incredibly overrated, also I don't think that the other players can support that front 4, you need to make hard choices with Argentina and no manager has done them.
It's sort of a dangerous game to play.
Messi is Messi, how do you not focus the team on him, but at the same time, too much focus makes you vulnerable. It's just a weird thing. It's like the entire team turns their brains off and subordinates themselves to Messi, and then if Messi doesn't perform, or a team concentrates on shutting him down, they are absolutely, proper fecked.
The manager is in a catch-22. If they don't focus the effort through Messi, and they go out, he is fecked. If they focus the effort on Messi and they go out, he is fecked. The act of focusing the play through Messi to the extent they do, makes it, ultimately, easier to defend against them. It's such a weird scenario. I'd argue that we saw it here a little bit at United in Ronaldos final year.
Everyone subordinated themselves to Ronaldo to such an extent, that we became predictable. I made posts about it at the time, once we knew Ronaldo was leaving, that I thought we might be better offensively after Ronaldo left. Simply because we'd still have quality, not as much, but we'd be less predictable. We went on to score a fair number of more goals the following season, though we didn't win anything of note.
They need to figure out a way to have Messi involved, but not be like "I have the ball, where is Lionel so I can force it to him".
One more roll of the dice... can go from zero to hero in the next game. Ironic that the narrative could, and will, be swung to say he dragged them out of the group stages and carried them should he perform in the next game.
It's all set up rather nicely.
That manager needs to grow a pair, as do the rest of the side and do what's best for the nation, and not Lionel Messi. In turn, he has to step up to the mark and play like what some deem 'the best player ever' no matter the role he is given.
The notion of him being an all-time great playmaker will be redundant if he's in the role again and does not much of anything in that final game.
It's all set up rather nicely.
That manager needs to grow a pair, as do the rest of the side and do what's best for the nation, and not Lionel Messi. In turn, he has to step up to the mark and play like what some deem 'the best player ever' no matter the role he is given.
The notion of him being an all-time great playmaker will be redundant if he's in the role again and does not much of anything in that final game.
Nah, their trash defense and midfield will get picked off by Nigeria's counters. Also, when was the last time you see Messi performing well under pressure except against Real Madrid? It was Neymar who dragged them over PSG. Messi has been lacking in big game performances and can do nothing in UCL knock-out games.
This makes no sense, midfielders can help out the backline much better than attacking talents ever could. Are you for real with that question ?
Well, this really is his time to step up to the plate like those true greats people have no hesitation in putting him over.
Whether the rest of the team fail or not, Messi has to do his bit and absolve himself of the criticism that the others might get post-tournament.
Football is 11 vs 11, not midfield vs midfield and attack vs defence. Look at the way Iceland and croatia played against them. Teams don't attack argentina because they are scared of their attacking potetial. That's their problem, they just don't create enough and don't convert enough chances. They missed a penalty against Iceland, and an OPEN NET SITTER against Croatia. Convert those and they'd be sitting pretty on 6 points and we'd be looking at them in much the same way we're looking at Spain, France and Brazil
Argentina's defence and midfield options weren't much better 4 years ago, yet they were one of the best defensive teams of the tournament. Sampaoli is a disaster, and they don't play like a team. There's absolutely no reason why guys like Biglia, Banega, Perez can't do a decent job winning the ball back in midfield against teams that spend 90% of the game deep in their own half. No reason why Messi and co. can't help the first pressing, no reason why guys like Dybala and Di Maria can't drop deeper to help initiate the attack(they've done that their entire careers at club level)
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4 years ago they were all younger duh... And in better form. Messi doesn't press Aguero doesn't press, whoever accompagnies them doesn't press. How can you expect them to function fully like that ? Specially when their midfield is atrocious and average.
The key is in midfield, a great midfield can help a mediocre backline but a good forward line doesn't guarantee that.
It is fecking simple, just look at the distances seperating midfield- defence with attackers-defence.
Argentina could be more efficient that it still wouldn't prevent them from getting exposed by that shit midfield.
‘He should be ashamed' - Emmanuel Petit (former Barca player), with some choice words for Lionel Messi
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.ind...-for-argentina-and-lionel-messi-37040278.html
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.ind...-for-argentina-and-lionel-messi-37040278.html
I watched some highlights and spotted something that I missed when I watched the game. Messi watched Croatia score the 3rd goal while he was in Argentina's box, and when they scored he just dropped his head and walked back to the centre circle.
He looked like a defeated man, it was really sad to see.
He looked like a defeated man, it was really sad to see.
@breakout67
Yep
...amazing how it’s brushed beneath the carpet for the most part as well because he’s Messi..
Yep
...amazing how it’s brushed beneath the carpet for the most part as well because he’s Messi..
But it should. Running is something everyone can do. It doesn't take any particular skill. The defence and midfield should not be this bad behind that attack. Certainly not against the likes of Iceland and Croatia spending 80-90% of the game camped into their own box. The sheer threat of their attack is enough to make the defensive job a lot easier. They just fail to do it, but even then, it's not like Iceland and Croatia were tearing them up at will. Crotia had a few chances, but so did Argentina. A game like that normally ends with the more talented team outscoring the other. The problem was Dybala, Di Maria, Pavon sitting on the bench, watching Meza and Enzo Perez waste their best chances
They missed a penalty against Iceland. They should have had another. They should not have drawn that game, just as Brazil should not have drawn against Switzerland. Or Germany should not have lost to Mexico(well, ok. Germany definitely deserved to lose that game. Kind of lost track of the point )
Nobody's saying Argentina should be great. But they should be one of the best teams in this WC. And certainly they should be better than Croatia and Iceland
91st minute, 2-0 down, every Argentina defender thought it was offside. Hardly the most egregious work rate issue, plenty other better examples of it elsewhere in the game.
Yea. It’s pathetic how people think Argentina not playing well means there’s a lack of quality there. That’s absolutely not the case. They are the #5 ranked international side for a reason and most definitely have a handful of top quality players.
Just for comparison sakes, here’s the teammates Ronaldo’s working with:
Rui Patricio: Promoted to the PL
Cedric: escaped relegation
Pepe: turkish League
Fonte: China
Guerrero: backup at BVB
Bernardo: backup at City
William: Free Agent
Moutinho: backup at Monaco
Joao Mario: backup at West Ham
Guedes: LW at Valencia playing CF
...so yea, the audacity when people say Argentina is poor or Messi has no one to play with is madness.
He gave up though. I mean so did the others but at least they kept moving after seeing the flag was down. Messi? Completely stopped. No urgency whatsoever and looked like he couldn’t be arsed.
C’mon now, just call a spade a spade. It’s understandable why he did it but it’s piss poor attitude at the end of the day. That sort of body language and lack of interest inevitably rubs off negatively. Just sad to see honestly.
You can almost sense that after all of this flack he's getting he will put in a gem of a performance and Argentina will still advance.
He deserves the flack but I have a sneaky feeling (hope I'm wrong) that ARG will win and Messi will be a part of why they eventually advance.
He deserves the flack but I have a sneaky feeling (hope I'm wrong) that ARG will win and Messi will be a part of why they eventually advance.
Ehh...I'm not really interested in holding this against Messi. I think he realised that his last chance to win the world Cup was over. He tried to retire on his own terms a few years ago, but will probably retire in a humiliating way. A sad way to go out for a sensational player. Im still hoping Argentina fluke their way out of the group stages.
Fluke? They just need to beat Nigeria. Even with all their problems they'll be big favourites for that.
Problem for them is Croatia will already finish first so they play France in the round of 16.
Normally yes, but there are rumblings of a dressing room fall out. It would go a long way to explaining how crap Argentina have been under Sampaoli. The players seem to have mentally checked out.
France are rubbish, too, so that's not an issue.
Quit expecting things to happen when they zero chances of hapening. In theory everyone should be running but it just doesn't work like that.
No matter how amazing you attack is, if you don't control things in the middle, you will get exposed to danger.
You are hit by the same syndrome of peoole who see big names in a first 11 and expect a certain level of play when the reality will always be more subtle than that
Bit of a strange way to make a point given you also have Mascherano, a pure defensive player, moving about an inch more. And one of their actual defenders manages to walk pretty casually.
It's not brushed under the carpet. Messi contributes almost nothing defensively much like the majority of elite attacking players across almost every generation. That's been well established long ago. What's different about Messi is he runs a lot less than the majority of elite attacking players when his team's in possession. Ronaldo and Messi are basically the same on the first point and worlds apart on the second.
A team that can put Messi, Aguero, Dybala and Di Maria on the pitch at the same time should never be outright bad. Argentina's problems aren't the players, it's everything. It's Sampaoli refusing to play all 4. It's those four not playing as well as they could. It's the complete lack of ideas and basic organization amd structure. And for all that, they played Iceland, whom they would have beaten had Messi not kicked the worst penalty of the tournament, and Croatia, who they played even until the 80th minute when Modric scored a wondergoal and Argentina quit the game, who went up thanks to a monumental blunder by caballero(when that he's unlikely to replicate any time soon, no matter how bad he is), Enzo Perez missing an open goal from the penalty spot and Meza missing their 2 best chances outside that one. They're not disjointed because the defenders and midfielders are trash, they're disjointed because nobody knows what he's supposed to do at any point beyond pass it to Messi
See below and the level their players play at.
agree with all of it.
You are entitled to your opinion but it doesn't add up. Their players play for top teams for a reason, and hold down a place. Football isn't charity. Roma had 2nd best defence in Serie A (only 4 goals more than Juve) and Fazio played over 40 times. Otamendi part of title winning defence and also voted best CB in La Liga. Banega is a good player. Di Maria had an extremely productive season (20 goals, 7 assists), Aguero, Dybala and Higuaín all were league winners.
Players are among the problems, you're only looking at the front line, the attackers and automatically deem they should be doing better as a whole (as in defend better too) which makes little sense. They could scoring more goals but they would still have the same issues in midfield and defence, of course if they'd be at attacking it would prevent their other issues from being too visible but they would still be there.
The whole team is shit and only truly the attackers are underperforming. You keep mentioning what they fail to do attacking wise but mention feck all when it comes to all the chances they're conceding, mentioning feck all about teams are cutting through their midfield like a knife through butter. Why are refusing to look at football from a general perspective and not just attacking. That's so weird to me.
Germany don't have a single top class player in attack now. Argentina have Messi, Dybala, Aguero, Higuain. Di Maria was much better for PSG than Draxler.
To present Argentina as a nothing team is ridiculous. They are performing badly.
To present Argentina as a nothing team is ridiculous. They are performing badly.
I know. its proper stupid.