It adds up, Otamendi isn't a particularly good CB and City fans will also tell you that he wasn't good in the last months, Banega is an overrated player that has failed to impress at a good level for his entire career but still lives on the early hype, Fazio isn't a good defender either. And then you mention 4 attacking players which is the entire point, Argentina have top class attacking players but the midfield and defense are made of subpar players who at best play for Roma or Sevilla like Perrotti, Fazio, Mercado or Banega, there is a reason why these players are where they are and never linked to top teams at around 30 years old.
Lionel Messi - Performances
- Thread starter Rado_N
- Start date
It adds up, Otamendi isn't a particularly good CB and City fans will also tell you that he wasn't good in the last months, Banega is an overrated player that has failed to impress at a good level for his entire career but still lives on the early hype, Fazio isn't a good defender either. And then you mention 4 attacking players which is the entire point, Argentina have top class attacking players but the midfield and defense are made of subpar players who at best play for Roma or Sevilla like Perrotti, Fazio, Mercado or Banega, there is a reason why these players are where they are and never linked to top teams at around 30 years old.
Well, these players don't make a team, they are in the same positional group, Argentina are a nothing team because they don't have the rest. It's a little bit like France when Benzema and Ribery were supported by the likes of Cabaye, Marvin Martin and other drosses.
Iceland and Croatia weren't carving them up. Not even close. Iceland crossed the midfield 3 times the entire game, and created about as many chances as Iran did against Spain. Croatia are one of the best teams in the competition, and they had 6 chances the whole game, and 3 of those in the last 10 minutes and one on a monumental blunder by Caballero
They did better against Croatia than Germany did against Mexico
And the reason they even gave up most of those chances is mostly down to their disjointed play and lack of organization, and outright fear against Croatia
Their defenders and midfielders are average players, sure, nobody is saying otherwise. But average players with a good organization, playing behind the most talented attacking force in the tournament should still be able to do a good job.
They didn't play like shit because their defence and midfield suck, the whole team did and it's mostly down to lack of ideas and organization.
You're coming at it as if i'm saying Argentina should blow everyone away and win the cup at a canter. I'm not saying that. I'm saying they should beat Iceland -and they should have! Again, they missed a penalty!- and not look like that against Croatia -again, a game they likely win anyways if they don't miss a fecking open goal sitter!-
This Argentina team has played and looked considerably worse than they have any right to be, and it's been the case for 2 years, since after the 2016 Copa final
It's one thing to say their defence and midfield would require an herculean effort from Messi and the other forwards to beat the likes Brazil, Spain, and win the WC. It's quite another to expect them to go out ina group to fecking Iceland and Nigeria!
Who said anything about them being carved open ? Not me at least, however no one sane can say they didn't concede chances and dangerous openings in both games.
You are debating with yourself there
Yeah they did. And Spain did against Iran. And Brazil did against Costa Rica. Germany got carved up like an easter goat by Mexico
Going back, Spain needed Casillas to bail them out at several points in 2010. Germany gave up quality chances to every decent team they faced. Even Italy in 2006 weren't completely airtight. No team at this level could ever be
Their defence hasn't been nearly as big a problem as you make it out to be. And it should still have been better than this, if only slightly.
4 goals conceded in 2 games with lots of chances conceded and the midfield+defence (I am adding midfield because you seem to have forgotten about it) haven't nearly been as a big problem as I make them out to be
??? You really are a funny dude. Weird fecked up conception of football.How is their amazing attack supposed to prevent Caballero from fecking things for instance ? Do you think Aguero will be blamed for that blunder ?
@giorno I see your point but there is one nuance that creates the argument. Argentina's defense and midfield naturally has a low floor all of their players(in defense and midfield) have shown during their career that outside of a very strong structures, they will be absolutely terrible, so it's very optimistic to expect consistently good performances from them and it's something that you can see in most of their games where they can move the ball for 15 minutes and are terrible for 75, that's their level and the players I'm talking about are not young, they are known commodities.
That's why I would say that they could do better but they shouldn't, in the sense that you can't actually predict it. And to comeback to Messi, his own performances in this World Cup are sub par, his decision making isn't good and he has no grinta.
That's why I would say that they could do better but they shouldn't, in the sense that you can't actually predict it. And to comeback to Messi, his own performances in this World Cup are sub par, his decision making isn't good and he has no grinta.
You seem to believe that great forwards don't effect the game beyond their ability in attack. If that's the case i have a magic carpet to sell you. And when i say defence i mean team defence, not the 4 nominal defenders. We're talking about football, not american football4 goals conceded in 2 games with lots of chances conceded and the midfield+defence (I am adding midfield because you seem to have forgotten about it) haven't nearly been as a big problem as I make them out to be
How is their amazing attack supposed to prevent Caballero from fecking things for instance ? Do you think Aguero will be blamed for that blunder ?
Take a look at the way Iceland and Croatia played against them. They barely kept the ball in argentina's half, barely pressed them(Iceland didn't do it at all) in their half, never sent more than 4-5 guys on attacks. Even Croatia, and Sampaoli had the genius idea to give up Argentina's advantage by fielding a team with less individual quality and talent than them. Argentina's midfielders and defenders aren't good, but they've played below their level. The whole team did, and it's not just because of the lack of quality of the defenders and midfielders. The issue runs a lot deeper than that. Argentina are worse than they should be, they're less than the sum of their parts and it's not just because some parts are so bad they're bringing everything down
Their CBs 4 years ago were Garay and 50 yo Demichelis. Sure Mascherano was amazing and Romero wasn't a joke, but the team as a whole was much more compact and well organized, and that's not an issue of the players
And sure, Caballero gifted Croatia a goal. And Enzo missed an open net to put up Argentina, which likely would have seen them win the game as Crotia would have had to change their game plan and give Messi and Aguero more space
It has become Argentina nt thread.
Sure thing man. Whatever you wanna believe would have happened if this or that even occured. You deal in hypothesis and I simply don't.
Enzo scoring that open goal doesn't guarantee them winning shit. It would have changed the game sure but who is to say they somehow wouldn't have fecked up regardless. Therein lies the biggest with how you see things and how I do.
You are sure of things that are impossible to be sure of
How is playing for Sevilla or Roma subpar? who does Portugals midfielders and CB's play for? Besiktas etc. What about Nigeria, where do their players play and how are they better. When you call them subpar, what is your standard?
Why do you compare them with these countries and who told you that these countries didn't had subpar players? Portugal have a mix of solid players and subpar ones in a solid system.
Because Portugal are able to win games with Ronaldo dragging them over the line, which I feel Messi fails to do despite having better players around him. Argentina have a mixture of top players and decent ones. If you play for Roma, City, Sevilla, you are clearly good enough for international football as many teams you are facing (Iceland and Croatia) have the baulk of their players at a similar or lower level.
You are discussing about something else then. Also Argentina win games, they are a bad team made of partially bad players but they win games because their attackers are pretty good. On the other side let's not pretend that Portugal wins more because they don't, just look at the last WC and the Euro 2016, they won 1 game out of 6 in the group stages.
Inevitable goal and performance on the cards here. Never write Leo off in any competition.
That was a sublime goal, technically perfect.
First player to score a world cup goal in his teens, twenties and thirties apparently.
Sure answering his critics here.
Surely Pele?
Still only 29 in 1970, turned 30 later that year.
The touch and finish were of the highest quality
Pele was 29 in 1970.
Thanks @goober88
Not convinced tbh. It was a great goal but for the rest it's been slightly better but nothing special yet.
Can someone post a gif of that goal. I am sure he took the 1st and 2nd touch without the ball hitting the floor, can someone confirm?
Confirmed. It was amazing control
Fecking incredible. No one in the world can do that, especially at that speed
only idiots do that, same as those who wrote ronaldo off. i imagine they don't ever watch a full 90 mins of a football match.
Just seen him in the tunnel, whole team around them. He is laying down the law with these guys. What a leader. Best player I have ever seen in my life time, and will ever see
Never liked Messi but I'm rooting for him here. I want to see him do something special.
Maybe they should have ignored his advice.
They've been woeful this half. Completely lacking in ideas
They've been woeful this half. Completely lacking in ideas
1000% this.
People are so petty and bitter that they forget we have had the pleasure of watching two bonfide greats of the game in one era. How anyone can slag off either of these two is beyond me, if you hate either of these players then you are a total moron and that's a fact.
Rojo saves Messi's blushes. As a thank you, he should come to Manchester United.
Glad Messi goes through but fecking hate that Maradona coke head.
His stamina levels are very poor based on tonight as you dont notice those issues playing for Barcelona where they dominate and keep possession against most teams. While he ran a lot more then in 2 first games that still isnt much compared to others and even then he locked knackered at the end of the game.
That banega pass was perfect, finally an argentinian team mate that seems to play well with Messi (their linkup in general looked good and they seemed to have a good understanding)
Am I the only one that berated at Higuain seeing who was behind him here?
There's no better spot for Messi to score and Higuain is the one shooting
It isn't about his stamina, this is being pushed again as it was back in 2013 and everytime his teams fail to perform. And he was so knackered that he dribbled past two Nigerian players to the goal line 89 minutes into the game, and won a throw in 90m away from Argentina's goal in the 91'
He's a 170 lean guy with more than 50k minutes of professional football in his legs, going against, bulkier younger guys like Etebo or Obi-Mikel who's a damn tank, he's not winning that fight. You could say "but when he's free he should run", that's a basic idea, reality is as soon as he gets the ball, he's getting into a physical fight with those guys, he needs to be fresh and sharp for 90 minutes and starts from a physical disadvantage, he needs almost all of his stamina to do so, that's why he had some to spare at the end, and if he needed it to score a goal he could capitalize on that.
He's reading the game, and being totally underrated at that. When he walks from side to side, it usually coincides with Argentina switching the flank they attack, when he gets himself between the CB's and DM he gains 10 meters of space for Mascherano and Banega to defend with the ball, we all know how much Argentina suck in defensive actions, and we saw how they got exposed against Spain when they had to defend deep, instead of with the ball, he also read that Nigeria's way of stopping him was to foul him (already fouled 5 times even drifting away of the game).
So his read of the situation is that if he sits deeper, he pulls away defenders and then Argentina has space for their efortless passes to retain the ball (thus, defending with it), he saves his stamina for key moments, he creates a superiority on the flank everytime Argentina rotates from left to right, and he also stops Nigeria from destroying his team's tempo by not allowing them to foul out argentina in the midfield area, if Nigeria foul Messi in midfield Argentina get nothing, the ref will hardly eject a Nigerian player, they will have less time to score and they will wear him down stamina-wise with the contact and the hits.
But that's not something pundits are pointing to, Camacho was saying that he needed to "take the ball from his teammates (he was doing exactly that vs Croatia, served for nothing) and just run, run and run", the worst set of tools he can bring to his team, this is the equivalent of "you need pace and physicality to win titles" that has gone so well for England NT and clubs at international level in the last decade, it's an archaic idea.
There's no better spot for Messi to score and Higuain is the one shooting
It isn't about his stamina, this is being pushed again as it was back in 2013 and everytime his teams fail to perform. And he was so knackered that he dribbled past two Nigerian players to the goal line 89 minutes into the game, and won a throw in 90m away from Argentina's goal in the 91'
He's a 170 lean guy with more than 50k minutes of professional football in his legs, going against, bulkier younger guys like Etebo or Obi-Mikel who's a damn tank, he's not winning that fight. You could say "but when he's free he should run", that's a basic idea, reality is as soon as he gets the ball, he's getting into a physical fight with those guys, he needs to be fresh and sharp for 90 minutes and starts from a physical disadvantage, he needs almost all of his stamina to do so, that's why he had some to spare at the end, and if he needed it to score a goal he could capitalize on that.
He's reading the game, and being totally underrated at that. When he walks from side to side, it usually coincides with Argentina switching the flank they attack, when he gets himself between the CB's and DM he gains 10 meters of space for Mascherano and Banega to defend with the ball, we all know how much Argentina suck in defensive actions, and we saw how they got exposed against Spain when they had to defend deep, instead of with the ball, he also read that Nigeria's way of stopping him was to foul him (already fouled 5 times even drifting away of the game).
So his read of the situation is that if he sits deeper, he pulls away defenders and then Argentina has space for their efortless passes to retain the ball (thus, defending with it), he saves his stamina for key moments, he creates a superiority on the flank everytime Argentina rotates from left to right, and he also stops Nigeria from destroying his team's tempo by not allowing them to foul out argentina in the midfield area, if Nigeria foul Messi in midfield Argentina get nothing, the ref will hardly eject a Nigerian player, they will have less time to score and they will wear him down stamina-wise with the contact and the hits.
But that's not something pundits are pointing to, Camacho was saying that he needed to "take the ball from his teammates (he was doing exactly that vs Croatia, served for nothing) and just run, run and run", the worst set of tools he can bring to his team, this is the equivalent of "you need pace and physicality to win titles" that has gone so well for England NT and clubs at international level in the last decade, it's an archaic idea.
Am I the only one that berated at Higuain seeing who was behind him here?
There's no better spot for Messi to score and Higuain is the one shooting
It isn't about his stamina, this is being pushed again as it was back in 2013 and everytime his teams fail to perform. And he was so knackered that he dribbled past two Nigerian players to the goal line 89 minutes into the game, and won a throw in 90m away from Argentina's goal in the 91'
He's a 170 lean guy with more than 50k minutes of professional football in his legs, going against, bulkier younger guys like Etebo or Obi-Mikel who's a damn tank, he's not winning that fight. You could say "but when he's free he should run", that's a basic idea, reality is as soon as he gets the ball, he's getting into a physical fight with those guys, he needs to be fresh and sharp for 90 minutes and starts from a physical disadvantage, he needs almost all of his stamina to do so, that's why he had some to spare at the end, and if he needed it to score a goal he could capitalize on that.
He's reading the game, and being totally underrated at that. When he walks from side to side, it usually coincides with Argentina switching the flank they attack, when he gets himself between the CB's and DM he gains 10 meters of space for Mascherano and Banega to defend with the ball, we all know how much Argentina suck in defensive actions, and we saw how they got exposed against Spain when they had to defend deep, instead of with the ball, he also read that Nigeria's way of stopping him was to foul him (already fouled 5 times even drifting away of the game).
So his read of the situation is that if he sits deeper, he pulls away defenders and then Argentina has space for their efortless passes to retain the ball (thus, defending with it), he saves his stamina for key moments, he creates a superiority on the flank everytime Argentina rotates from left to right, and he also stops Nigeria from destroying his team's tempo by not allowing them to foul out argentina in the midfield area, if Nigeria foul Messi in midfield Argentina get nothing, the ref will hardly eject a Nigerian player, they will have less time to score and they will wear him down stamina-wise with the contact and the hits.
But that's not something pundits are pointing to, Camacho was saying that he needed to "take the ball from his teammates (he was doing exactly that vs Croatia, served for nothing) and just run, run and run", the worst set of tools he can bring to his team, this is the equivalent of "you need pace and physicality to win titles" that has gone so well for England NT and clubs at international level in the last decade, it's an archaic idea.
Give this man a clap. Some excellent tactical analysis and observation on Messi. If there was an upvote system, I'd give you that.
I've seen Shane Long do that. Behave.