Lionel Messi - Performances

BeforeKeanetherewasRobson said:
Don't disagree... but to be the GOAT of GOATS, you've got to do something amazing at a WC (a la Maradona) or something decent in more than one?

You won't find one post from me (not ONE) ever saying Messi is not a great player and beautiful to watch (we have been honoured) but I struggle with him being No.1 given his national performances (some group goals/no knockout goals in 2014 doesn't do it for me).
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I'm not really sure that's the case. Players should be judged on how they perform on the pitch primarily, and what they win after that. Trophies obviously contribute to their legacy, especially since most great players eventually play for great teams, but players don't choose their nationality, and excluding Messi from the discussion of being the greatest of all-time because he narrowly missed out on winning a World Cup in extra-time, one individual game that could've gone either way, strikes me as a bit silly, and a way for people who aren't interested in talking about the actual football played by the players in discussion so they can instead change it to a comparison of stats and trophies won. Indeed, if we're going by that criteria then Ronaldo can't be considered either since he's been crap in WC's before now and has as of yet only performed in the group stages this time around.

Although Messi has been fairly diabolical in this tournament. Looks bored with international football, and isn't managing to drag his team to a higher level like Ronaldo is.
 
Chiken138 said:
Honesty u are retarded, did u even watched the world cup? Mascherano dragged them to final, Messi did nothing.

And Ronaldo won them Euro, Messi didn't even win 1 trophy with Argentenia
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Ronaldo didn't even play in the final and Portugal still won. So you think Messi got the golden ball because retarded people gave it to him.
 
No urgency, no workrate, no leadership - this WC is seriously damaging his legacy.
 
I thought he was awful. When the team really needed him he was labouring around on the right wing. He should have been demanding the ball and being the primary creator but he was hiding.
 
Victory has defeated him!

Hasn’t turned up this tournament.

Rumours were he picked the team, the tactics and how they play, all to accomodate him. Rightly so he’s one of the best players in the world, but IMO his arrogance has cost the team qualification. Messi has proved he cant carry the team on his own 2014 WC, COPA and now has proved it.
 
Kearnkoff69 said:
I agree they were slightly overrated, but he did play a role in dragging them through the group stage when they didn't look like they deserved to go through. Argentina was one woeful Higuain miss from winning the WC 2014. It's funny to think about how much that miss may come to define (and already has defined) this debate and Messi's legacy.
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Still blaming Higuain I see, without his incredible goal vs Belgium they don't even make that far. Messi himself had a great chance in the final which 9/10 times he'd bury if he were playing for Barcelona. You can't attribute everything good Argentina do to him and then blame his teammates when he does nothing. Can't have it both ways my friend.

Also, Messi had a very good WC in 2014. No one is denying that but I've seen far more of his supporters play down Ronaldo's Euro 16 where he was not the best but had a great tournament with 3 goals and 3 assists. Even in 2004 he had a good tournament in a stacked Portuguese side.

Dr. StrangeHate said:
Ronaldo didn't even play in the final and Portugal still won. So you think Messi got the golden ball because retarded people gave it to him.
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Ronaldo dragged his side to Euro 16 final as much as Messi did his in 2014. Ronaldo actually had 2 goals and 2 assists in knockout matches compared to Messi's solitary assist in KO rounds.
 
Pink Moon said:
It isn't.

Patricio is better than any Argentine goalkeeper.

Portugal's defence is better than Argentina's defence.

Portugal's midfield is better than Argentina's midfield. Moutinho, Carvalho etc would walk into that Argentine side.

The only area where Argentina trump Portugal is in the attacking third but even as long as Portugal have Ronaldo they're set there too.
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We’re talkkng fine margins but ultimately as a goal threat Argentina are streaks ahead. They under performed bigtime, pathetic for such a nation.
 
Rado_N said:
That word has officially lost all meaning.
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Yip. Tbh I've been drawn into it from the use it gets here. :nono: I should know better at my age.

When I grew up, I just called players great (Dalglish, Platini, Zico, etc) and while I had a favourite, I never even thought about which one was best.

Slapped wrist, must try harder.
 
Revan said:
There are many teams who are doing much more with far less though.
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They do but you notice that Argentina aren't better when Messi doesn't play. Their problems are deep and probably based on the fact that they are totally unable to build a team, Dybala, Aguero, Higuain, Tevez, Icardi none of them play well for Argentina. All of them are put in bad situations because there is no platform, for as long as I can remember Argentina can't defend properly and they can't move the ball properly. Argentina are managed like the caf wants to manage France, names and nothing else.
 
Shite tonight and looked like a sulky prick. I’ve really started to dislike him over the past few years.
 
Didn't even looked like he bothered. Even for the argument his team is inferior or anything you would expect him to at least have some influence in the attacking sense of the Argentina side.
 
KM said:
How do you explain that he had less touches than Caballero in the first half?
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Because Argentina are shite because they only look to pass to Messi.

Or some logic.
 
AngliaRed said:
Victory has defeated him!

Hasn’t turned up this tournament.

Rumour were he picked the team, the tactics and how they play, all to accomodate him. Rightly so he’s one of the best players in the world, but IMO his arrogance has cost the team qualification. Messi has proved he cant carry the team on his own 2014 WC, COPA and now has proved it.
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So he's football's LeBron James then? :lol:
 
All the attention will obviously go on messi. Just like it would if portugal lost to morocco the other day.

But the people that think Messi picks the team are actually jokers, if he did he would evidently be more of a extroverted 'leader' personality that some want out of him, when its clear he'd never be like that.

I dont even remember any reports about it rather than gossip, but the team selection has been awful. I dont know why people think Messi would start players like Meza who he has no connection to
 
JPRouve said:
They do but you notice that Argentina aren't better when Messi doesn't play. Their problems are deep and probably based on the fact that they are totally unable to build a team, Dybala, Aguero, Higuain, Tevez, Icardi none of them play well for Argentina. All of them are put in bad situations because there is no platform, for as long as I can remember Argentina can't defend properly and they can't move the ball properly. Argentina are managed like the caf wants to manage France, names and nothing else.
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You can't expect to build the team for 10 years to give the ball to Messi and then to expect them to play well immediately when he is not playing.

The main problem is that instead of making Messi an important part of the team, they made Messi the team. And that doesn't work in modern football and consequently the other players look like shit, with the opposition team having little to no trouble stopping Messi and so stopping the team.
 
Revan said:
You can't expect to build the team for 10 years to give the ball to Messi and then to expect them to play well immediately when he is not playing.

The main problem is that instead of making Messi an important part of the team, they made Messi the team. And that doesn't work in modern football and consequently the other players look like shit, with the opposition team having little to no trouble stopping Messi and so stopping the team.
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We are not saying anything different, there is no platform it's all based on Messi created miracles and they do the same with Dybala. The latter should retire right now.
 
Put all bullshit about Messi vs you know who on a side, that was weird tonight from him, i expected to see at least opposition players hackling him down 24/7 as a way to stop him but nope, they didnt need to and thats most damaging thing for me.
 
JPRouve said:
Argentina are actually a country that lives on reputation, their midfielders and defenders are wank, no decent club want them. They have a bunch of very talented attacking players but you don't play football with 5 strikers and 5 wingers.
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I don't know, I would have Marcos Rojo on my team as a defender...
 
I fecking hate the word ‘GOAT’ unless it describes an animal I might find in a petting zoo.
 
Kush said:
Still blaming Higuain I see, without his incredible goal vs Belgium they don't even make that far. Messi himself had a great chance in the final which 9/10 times he'd bury if he were playing for Barcelona. You can't attribute everything good Argentina do to him and then blame his teammates when he does nothing. Can't have it both ways my friend.

Also, Messi had a very good WC in 2014. No one is denying that but I've seen far more of his supporters play down Ronaldo's Euro 16 where he was not the best but had a great tournament with 3 goals and 3 assists. Even in 2004 he had a good tournament in a stacked Portuguese side.
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I’m not denying Messi had a good opportunity that was jaw dropping that he missed. Merely commenting that had one goal gone their way, he would have a WC on his resume.
 
ivaldo said:
And how about the other 89 minutes? Are you seriously defending his effort tonight?
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No but it isn't like he runs around a lot either at Barcelona. The difference is the quality of his teammates at Barca and Argentina. For example, right before the 3rd goal, he plays a lovely nutmeg pass to Meza who has countless opportunities to get a shot away but dallies before eventually hitting a tame effort. At Barca that's Suarez or Coutinho and they're banging it into the net.

He hasn't been great. He's been disappointing, in fact, but I think the argument that he doesn't look interested is unfair. He's always like this. Watch him for Barca when they don't have the ball.
 
Jagga7 said:
I thought he was awful. When the team really needed him he was labouring around on the right wing. He should have been demanding the ball and being the primary creator but he was hiding.
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His team weren't even moving or giving him options.

Argentina really need to produce better midfielders, defenders and gk's. They then need to send them to Europe's biggest leagues to flourish.
 
Jagga7 said:
I thought he was awful. When the team really needed him he was labouring around on the right wing. He should have been demanding the ball and being the primary creator but he was hiding.
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This is it for me. It's so hard to deny him being the most fantastic player ever, but at the same time you would think that any player we would call deserving of the GOAT mantle would be trying to force the issue more than he did.

That said, even Messi on song would have a hard time helping this Argentina side. This match reminded me a wee bit of the Brazil - Germany debacle, in that Argentina seemed to think they could free-jazz it up and win, but the opposition were far better drilled and knew what they were doing as a team.
 
Newman123 said:
His team weren't even moving or giving him options.

Argentina really need to produce better midfielders, defenders and gk's. They then need to send them to Europe's biggest leagues to flourish.
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Didn't exactly help himself when he did have the ball though. Messi's typically great because he can drop back and pick up the ball to make something out of very little with his control and dribbling skill, wasn't really offering that tonight though.
 
Pink Moon said:
It isn't.

Patricio is better than any Argentine goalkeeper.

Portugal's defence is better than Argentina's defence.

Portugal's midfield is better than Argentina's midfield. Moutinho, Carvalho etc would walk into that Argentine side.

The only area where Argentina trump Portugal is in the attacking third but even as long as Portugal have Ronaldo they're set there too.
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What crap so your telling me cedric, a 50 year old pepe and fonte with guerro is better than otemendi (just was one of the best cb in the league), rojo and mercado?

Come on they are at least equal. Portugals worse. Midfield look at the options. William calvalho? Only moutinho is decent. Macherano and benga are clearly better than both. Then the Portugal attack is a joke in comparison
 
At some point, you really do have to judge a player by his performance outside his comfort zone. Messi has yet to truly deliver for his country, despite having a number of perfectly decent players around him. Would people think as highly of Maradona if he'd only ever excelled at club level?
 
Pink Moon said:
No but it isn't like he runs around a lot either at Barcelona. The difference is the quality of his teammates at Barca and Argentina. For example, right before the 3rd goal, he plays a lovely nutmeg pass to Meza who has countless opportunities to get a shot away but dallies before eventually hitting a tame effort. At Barca that's Suarez or Coutinho and they're banging it into the net.

He hasn't been great. He's been disappointing, in fact, but I think the argument that he doesn't look interested is unfair. He's always like this. Watch him for Barca when they don't have the ball.
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Exactly. He isn't playing with the quality he has around him. You would have thought he realised that as well, and might actually make the effort to impact the game as opposed to waiting for the opportunities to fall to him.

You're going waaayy over the top there. It was a good nutmeg pass to the edge of the box, there's absolutely no guarantee those aforementioned players would be scoring that. That was about the sum of his contribution the entire game.
 
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