Life after ETH — the next United manager

[Josep Dowling]

Diego Simeone. He's the only one I genuinely believe that could do well with us. His tactics would suit the PL. Pity he's never leaving AT Madrid.

We’re already the pantomime villain club, may as well have the manager to go with it.

 

[Red Star One]

Ruud ironing the suit

 

[Yorkeontop]

You probably go back and talk to Tuchel. Hopefully he can do something productive before he inevitably falls out with upper management.

 

[AdNani]

I like the Stuttgart Manager, not even going to attempt to spell it, Or Xavi.

Feel like we missed a trick not going for Flick in the summer,

 

[Louis Van Gonads]

Kinda obvious comment but think about this.

There has never been such a significant split in opinion over the next manager. There is no standout candidate and the majority won’t be happy regardless of who it is.

Busy forum ahead.

 

[AaronRedDevil]

We’re already the pantomime villain club, may as well have the manager to go with it.

His charisma and passion is exactly what this clubs could use.

 

[kthanksbye]

Surely Xavi has to be the best option at the moment, should at the very least be able to make us take care of the ball and train our players to move when in possession.

 

[Zoo]

I don’t want an interim. Sorry Ruud

 

[spwd]

Get Roy in tomorrow to kick that cnut out and kick the rest of them up their arses.

 

[Sandikan]

The underwhelming candidate is 4 points clear of ETH after 6 games. With fecking Fulham

They managed to be one of the few to actually lose to us in the last 6months though

 

[IrishMcD]

This post match interview is embarrassing.
“We started good, then we weren’t good for a bit in the middle, and then we finished good”.

 

[Who's Kissing Cameras?]

Xavi, Potter, Tuchel, Naglesmann, Iraola, anyone.

 

[Roboc7]

It’s reached that stage where if we had no manager at all we wouldn’t be any worse off. Any manager should be able to improve us in the short term in comparison to this current shambles. Obviously finding someone who won’t just repeat the cycle is the hard bit though.

 

[ErikElevenHag]

Result is irrelevant tonight and the equaliser shouldn't save him. Anyone with eyes can see that hes incapable of stopping teams from cutting straight through us.

He has to go tomorrow. We are losing at Villa with him in charge, so keeping him because it's too short notice doesn't really make sense, at least the pressure will be lifted with the change, it genuinely can't get any worse than it currently is by letting ruud take charge of the game.

 

[Leftback99]

I feel like we should maybe go for a manager who can coach a decent 3 at the back formation.

Probably not as a permanent tactic, but just to mix things up and get this horrible system out of the players mindset.

 

[Dominos]

I don't remember the last time Duncan got any Manutd story right...

Ole's sacking thread was made off the back of Castles boardroom level information. Funnily, there were people doubting Castle's reliability in the first page, only for Ole to indeed get sacked later that day.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/eme...ss-the-future-of-ole-gunnar-solskjaer.467143/

Whether he still has the boardroom level connections at United I don't know. But he's definitely got connections with agents so leaks could come from that side if we have been sounding out replacements.

 

[Cantonagotmehere]

The team is a mental mess. Even Martinez is playing badly. Need new life ASAP.I don't care who, just get an interim and take your time, Ineos.

 

[croadyman]

I feel like we should maybe go for a manager who can coach a decent 3 at the back formation.

Probably not as a permanent tactic, but just to mix things up and get this horrible system out of the players mindset.

Well the two names who fit that are Inzaghi and Amorim, however the latter apparently has a €30m buyout, in regards to the former he definitely wouldn't leave Inter until the summer

 

[AshRK]

Whatever we do, no interim please. We are only in October so hiring an interim would mean writing off the season. Hire a permanent manager and try to get top 4.

 

[Mainoovement]

My top 3 choices would be:

Alonso: Seems very unlikely and wouldn't be till the end of the season.
Amorim: Could see it happening but definitely wouldn't be till the end of the season.
Hoeneß: Could also see this happening and I think we could get him mid-season.

I really don't want to spend the next 8 months with an interim manager so I'd go for Hoeneß and roll the dice.

 

[croadyman]

Whatever we do, no interim please. We are only in October so hiring an interim would mean writing off the season. Hire a permanent manager and try to get top 4.

So who would you hire right now then?

 

[AshRK]

So who would you hire right now then?

Being realistic I would go for Tuchel. He will be make us look solid at least and give us a good chance to finish top 4. Nagelsmann would be my ideal choice but that's not happening.

 

[croadyman]

Being realistic I would go for Tuchel. He will be make us look solid at least and give us a good chance to finish top 4. Nagelsmann would be my ideal choice but that's not happening.

Yeah completely agree, however be very surprised if we go back for him after not being able to agree terms in the summer. The suggestion was it broke down due to him wanting more control but don't know how true

 

[DarkLord1984]

We need a manager who knows how to organize a defense properly.

The amount of goals we've conceded over the last 2 and a bit years is staggering. ETH seems to have no idea how to fix it.

 

[croadyman]

We need a manager who knows how to organize a defense properly.

The amount of goals we've conceded over the last 2 and a bit years is staggering. ETH seems to have no idea how to fix it.

Ideally we can get a defensive organiser but also can implement a defined attacking style. Surely finding someone that can do it isn't too much to ask.

 

[GlazersHater]

Im surprised not many have mentioned Unai Emery, he's done wonders with Villa. I know he failed with PSG and Arsenal but he was a complete success with Sevilla and Villa. It's either him or Inzaghi for me. But lets get back to reality with the Southgate rumors, feck I hate this club.

 

[Pscholes18]

Ugarte (also a Mendes client) in the summer. It's well known he's close to Mendes and he feeds him info.

BTW, hows Neves doing at PSG?

 

[croadyman]

Im surprised not many have mentioned Unai Emery, he's done wonders with Villa. I know he failed with PSG and Arsenal but he was a complete success with Sevilla and Villa. It's either him or Inzaghi for me. But lets get back to reality with the Southgate rumors, feck I hate this club.

That's more to do with the fact many of us don't feel he's remotely realistic, just look at what he's building at Villa to see he has no reason to leave.

I feel conflicted on whether we should appoint an interim or permanent. IF we could somehow agree deal for Inzaghi/Amorim for the summer then would go interim. On the other hand if we can't then should look for permanent appointment like Tuchel or maybe someone looking to make that step up.

 

[Marcus]

Ole till the end of the season only. Only!

 

[TheBigLewandowski]

Do we have to wait until end of the season for Mckenna? Or does he have a buy out clause?

 

[ayushreddevil9]

Do we have to wait until end of the season for Mckenna? Or does he have a buy out clause?

These players will chew him out in no time. We need managers who can establish authority

 

[NinjaZombie]

Wouldn't Amorim just be Ten Hag MKII in terms of profile? Coach of a big club in a league filled with much poorer teams. He'll come to United, realise he can't do it the same way he did in his previous job with the top heavy tactical set up, and then tell everyone "I can't do at United what I did in Sporting"

 

[In Absentia]

Curious, what makes you think that with regards to Thomas Frank?

He has done a good job at Brentford, but his football isn't as good to watch as Fulham’s or Brighton’s, which isn't the barometer exactly, but it puts his work in context. I prefer Silva’s football.

 

[ArmaDino]

Ideally we can get a defensive organiser but also can implement a defined attacking style. Surely finding someone that can do it isn't too much to ask.

A certain Conte would be an ideal candidate that can accomplish both. Massimo Allegri and Valverde would also be decent shouts, however most people would be up in arms just by mentioning those 2.

Wouldn't Amorim just be Ten Hag MKII in terms of profile? Coach of a big club in a league filled with much poorer teams. He'll come to United, realise he can't do it the same way he did in his previous job with the top heavy tactical set up, and then tell everyone "I can't do at United what I did in Sporting"

Here is why Amorim might be ETH v2.0. In a nutshell he uses the same principles, the most similar ones are 3-1-6 in a buildup phase(something ETH has been criticized for) and the full backs pushing too far up, plus the oppo team being able to slice through the middle. I've the reply below for additional details

I don't think I've ever seen Amorim's Sporting play so obviously @Deco10Legend will know more than me, but I do remember The Athletic doing an analysis of the problems at Pochettino's Chelsea in March this year where they dedicate a section to analyzing Amorim as a potential replacement. They go over his playing style and potential problems (starts at 25:38 in this video) -



Obviously they might be wrong but the analysis here just gives me Ten Hag vibes - builds up in a 3-1-6 with Hjulmand as a single pivot, likes to push the front 6 really high, score lots of goals (though the video shows stats indicating they were overperforming xG) and concede very few (again, video highlights they have the best xGA in the league), but leave lots of space in the middle which the single pivot (Ugarte/Palhina/Hjulmand in versions of Amorim's Sporting) was expected to cover on his own. Alex Barker in the video makes the point that this strategy works in the Portuguese league because Sporting (and Benfica and Porto) have such a massive financial advantage over other teams in the league that the smaller teams don't have the type of players to punish such risk taking. But I feel, like with Ten Hag, teams in the premier league would punish it. Obviously both Ten Hag and Amorim have coached their sides against the best teams in European competition - Ten Hag had that famous run to the semi-finals, Amorim knocked out Arteta's Arsenal in the Europa League a couple of years ago - I feel like those don't necessarily translate in a league format where you are expected to dominate 'lesser' teams in the premier league who nevertheless have the quality to punish you.

I feel like this is an issue with coaches outside the big leagues generally. Often, these leagues are very top heavy. So, teams like Sporting, Benfica, Porto, Ajax, PSV, Celtic etc. are often playing against teams which have barely 1/10th of their budget and thus, a massive talent disadvantage. So, they often end up playing against teams who park the bus trying not to get humiliated. And the challenge for the coaches of these big fish in small pond type teams is to break down deep defenses, which they usually do by pushing players forward to create an overload, safe in the knowledge that their talent advantage will mean that they can usually pin the opposition back when in possession and also control transitions pretty reliably given the lack of quality in the opposition line-up. We've now seen Ten Hag and Ange come to the premier league and struggle in defensive transitions. And it's still early days for Arne Slot who might yet run into the same problem, though he's done well so far.

And that I think is the challenge of assessing these coaches - any coach from these leagues coming into the premier league will have to alter their defensive principles to handle these transitions, perhaps by having more people in deeper positions to handle the transition defensively. But if they take players out of the offensive lines to put in the defensive line, can they still produce the blistering attacking football that has made them an interesting proposition to teams like United, Spurs and Liverpool in the first place i.e., are the goals just a consequence of numerical overloads in the final third? Do they have the tactical nous to produce both a solid transition defense and a strong attacking unit?

I feel like striking that balance has been the main problem for Ten Hag's United. In the first season, he prioritized defensive solidity and basically played a tweaked version of Ole's system, running into the same issue - the team could not break down deep defenses, or at least, relied too much on Bruno/Rashford to do so. In the second season, he tried to do the offensive overload to try and remedy this and consequently, the defense fell to pieces. But without any noticeable improvement in attack. This season has been mostly about trying (and mostly failing) to get that balance right, with the odd success here and there (first half vs Fulham, last 60 mins vs Southampton, first 60 mins vs Palace etc.).

Ange has done a better job implementing his on the ball principles but Spurs also often look quite vulnerable on the counter.

If I were Ashworth/Wilcox, that would be my main concern - assessing the scalability of tactical set ups of these interesting up and coming the coaches from smaller leagues. Wilcox obviously has coaching experience himself so might be qualified to do so.

Or they could go the easier route and try for coaches whose methods are proven to work in top 5 leagues where financial disparities are smaller. What Xabi Alonso and Seb Hoeness have done in Germany, producing dominant sides which are free flowing in attack and among the best defensively, while working on relatively modest budgets - Leverkusen and Stuttgart are not working on a Bayern level budget - is much more impressive in that sense. Or at least, it's much easier to make the case for how well they might translate into the premier league.

Simone Inzaghi at Inter is also, for many of the same reasons, probably the safest choice. Did well at Lazio producing a team which was punching above its weight and very good both in defense and attack. Got the big job at Inter where, while he was able to immediately improve their style in possession compared to Conte's more counter-attacking style, the results didn't follow immediately. They finished second to AC Milan in his first season, having taken over the champions and being in the title race quite deep into the season, but ultimately being perceived by many Inter fans as having bottled it. Then they didn't start the second season well either, being well behind Napoli very early in the season. It is easy to forget now but many Inter fans had doubts over him and wanted him gone. It was only the Champions League run that kept his head clear. But the run to the Champions League final, where they arguably outplayed Pep Guardiola's team, clearly gave the team and the fans a lot of faith in his methods and then they walked the league last year. But the point is, through all that, his teams were constantly creating good chances in attack and defending well as a unit. His methods demonstrably work in a top 5 league, and he is able to go toe-to-toe with the likes of Barcelona, Manchester City and Atletico Madrid without having to tweak his system too much, except maybe playing a bit more on the break against City.

Andoni Iraola, even if he's not won anything or managed a top team, has shown his methods work not only in a top 5 league generally, they work in the premier league specifically. Bournemouth are probably the best pressing team in the league and he's made them one of the most fun teams to watch in England. Only negative is that his team hasn't really beaten a top side (except us but we weren't a top side at all last year). Bournemouth mostly beat the teams below them and lose to the teams above them, with mixed results against the teams around them. So difficult to assess how good he is really. This season, they really should have beaten Chelsea and should have gotten at least something at Anfield, given the quality of their play. But they did end up losing both and losing games like that would not be acceptable at United.

TLDR - My preference is we take the safe route and go for someone already doing well in a top 5 league. Personal preference is Hoeness because his Stuttgart team really are delightful to watch, even if he's never won anything. But generally, I would like for us to assess coaches based on the quality of their tactical set ups and how they might work in the premier league, rather than just looking at their achievements/numbers.

 

[In Absentia]

The Athletic reported that United had a face to face meeting with Silva the Thursday before the FA Cup final. Silva's agent is Jorge Mendes.

I think this would be a good move. He is very experienced now, but still young. He’s had some downs, but it is on the up again now. I think that’s a good thing rather than a negative.

 

[croadyman]

A certain Conte would be an ideal candidate that can accomplish both. Massimo Allegri and Valverde would also be decent shouts, however most people would be up in arms just by mentioning those 2.


Here is why Amorim might be ETH v2.0. In a nutshell he uses the same principles, the most similar ones are 3-1-6 in a buildup phase(something ETH has been criticized for) and the full backs pushing too far up, plus the oppo team being able to slice through the middle. I've the reply below for additional details

Why would people be up in arms over Allegri and Valverde just out of interest?

 

[croadyman]

I think this would be a good move. He is very experienced now, but still young. He’s had some downs, but it is on the up again now. I think that’s a good thing rather than a negative.

Yeah he's had some tough times at Hull, Watford and Everton but looks to be rebuilding. Do you believe that he's capable of making the step up then?

 

[ArmaDino]

Why would people be up in arms over Allegri and Valverde just out of interest?

Because they view them as passive and reactive managers that aren't elite, or up and coming for that matter. I guess they're not exciting enough or something along those lines.

Just look at the tweet that suggested that Allegri is SAF's preferred choice. It was met with complete negativity.

 

[croadyman]

Because they view them as passive and reactive managers that aren't elite, or up and coming for that matter. I guess they're not exciting enough or something along those lines.

Just look at the tweet that suggested that Allegri is SAF's preferred choice. It was met with complete negativity.

My only concern with him was I thought he had quite a pragmatic defensive style, however maybe I am very wrong about that so feel free to correct me.

 

[ArmaDino]

My only concern with him was I thought he had quite a pragmatic defensive style, however maybe I am very wrong about that so feel free to correct me.

That, and the fact that both Allegri and Valverde have a tendency of bottling key matches in cup runs. Remember that 4-0 loss Barca suffered at the hands of Pool? Or when they lost 3 goal advantage against Roma? Valverde was in charge then.

Aside from that, they seem pretty decent in their leagues. However both Seria A and La Liga, aren't as competitive as the EPL so not sure how their talent would be implemented other here.

The only positive thing I can say is that SAF seems to rate Allegri(if reports are true). And while Moyes wasn't exactly pulling any trees, he did mention a year or so ago that Emery is building something interesting at Villa. So the man clearly has an eye for a good manager as well.