When I raised that point on here, the overall excitement drowned out the noise.
To be fair though, the case back then was a little more open to interpretation and left a little more room for plausibly denying his homophobia.
LGBTQ+ inclusion and Religion Debate in Football
- Thread starter SilentWitness
- Start date
To be fair though, the case back then was a little more open to interpretation and left a little more room for plausibly denying his homophobia.
Again, who said that, they can not should not force anyone to promote it.
I have said bin off Islam by saying bin off religion, I really got them all covered.
What the actual feck?
Gone form hero to zero in a day, from what I have seen he is a very nice humble guy.
Islam. The religion of peace love and acceptance. I could write a long and elaborate post about the ludicrous western world but the guy who made the chickens for KFC meme pretty much summed this up.
No, you got him because he publicly supported Palestine which is a big no-no in Germany.
Care to talk us through your research that leads you to the opinion that most wars are religiously motivated then?
It's the kind of comment anti religious people spread. It isn't true and it fuels discrimination and hatred.
It's not about him living peacefully. I don't expect him to be harassing anyone, it's just what that conveys to people. Fans of that club who are gay knowing one of their players doesn't believe their sexuality is right.
Also as an aside, it's always weird to me when people use the word promote in the context of this. Like it's some sullied thing "oh he can't be seen promoting that".
Much like comments suggesting that Stonewall is intentionally mutilating kids for a laugh.
I don't know him personally, so I wouldn't be able to tell. I was happy to see him leave Bayern is all that I'm gonna say.
So if we had a betting or booze brand on the front of the shirt, he would play without that brand?
Im sorry, but if that was the case, he would be sold.
I am not saying that, just if someone feels strongly about anything in contrary to their religious beliefs might feel that way. Depends on the person I guess.
Really all they had to do was do some targeted videos of players wearing pro-LGBT attire or something, and players could volunteer to take part, as a photoshoot or whatever. That way it's not clear whether those that didn't did so because of their beliefs, scheduling issues or whatever. These "all squad" approaches are just asking for trouble.
Your words not mine
The issue I have with this critique of religion is that it misses that a large part of "western morality" is based on christian teachings/writing. It is impossible to separate religion from the "moral code" of most people, even if these people are not particularly religious.
What would he be promoting though? I mean, what is he actually protesting by not wearing that jacket? What specifically?
Cause the rainbow campaign is all about inclusivity: let's not discriminate against 2SLGBTQI+ people. So logically, if you don't want to wear rainbow stuff, you're disagreeing with that message. By extension, that would mean that you think that existing discrimination shouldn't be battled, and that you are thus fine with 2SLGBTQI+ being in that situation.
None of that yet touches on what you think of homosexual sex or anything like that - which is generally the only thing Abrahamic religions forbid. It's about not supporting inclusivity at any level.
So tell me, how can someone like Mazraoui get out of this appearing like an OK guy?
Whilst I would have preferred the whole team to wear the jacket due to the message it sends, its difficult to point the finger at Maz for being unwilling without knowing the full context of this.
Honour and shame is a large part of Islamic culture and there could have been the potential for backlash on his relatives from within the Islamic community if he appeared on TV or in images supporting a pro-LGBTQ message which you would imagine he would like to avoid if at all possible. It says nothing about his own personal views, more what's seen as acceptable within the culture which sadly I think were all painfully aware isn't as supportive as it should be.
Honour and shame is a large part of Islamic culture and there could have been the potential for backlash on his relatives from within the Islamic community if he appeared on TV or in images supporting a pro-LGBTQ message which you would imagine he would like to avoid if at all possible. It says nothing about his own personal views, more what's seen as acceptable within the culture which sadly I think were all painfully aware isn't as supportive as it should be.
Take your pick - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Religion-based_wars
I'm sure there's plenty of others that have religion as an undertone. Most of it in the modern world appears to come from ignorance and people not taking the time to understand each other.
Your out of pocket WWII example is technically based on religion but that doesn't qualify for what I was talking about. This was a group of people persecuted purely because of their religion which is completely different and obviously abhorrent. You see similar in all sorts of conflicts, for example the racism and horrific treatment many Iraqis had to endure from the Western forces who occupied the country in the early 2000s. Even if it is not the direct cause for the start of the conflict, it always seems to be a factor. It's people thinking their religion is the right one and the other unfamiliar ones are seen as weird or threatening, so my original point was that if religion didn't exist at all perhaps we would see less of this.
There is an argument that religion being the driver behind the wars is specious, given the vast majority were ultimately about exerting power/taking resources or land etc, but the fact religion has been such a fundamental rallying cry for these conflicts means it is intrinsically linked and inseparable to these causes many would say.
You're basically turning the logic around: Christian values shaped modern Western society, so without Christian values, modern Western society would be fundamentally different. But that's too simplistic. Religious values are a type of codification of values any society needs to be functional. It's therefore not surprising that such values are largely the same across religions and societies.
I think there's some real leaps of logic in here. My workplace has optional rainbow lanyards. I wear them, most don't. Does that mean they're automatically anti-LGBTQ? No. Forcing people to be vehicles for a message, no matter how agreeable you feel it is, isn't right. Choosing not to support this campaign is the absence of a view - like abstaining from a vote - not a statement against it.
Very very disappointed in the club for this. Not a good look at all. Mazraoui has gone down in my personal estimations as well, but far more annoyed at the club for deciding no one wears it if one person doesn’t want to.
Yet another own goal in recent times by the football men
Their off field PR and decision making has been horrendous
Yet another own goal in recent times by the football men
Their off field PR and decision making has been horrendousThe claim that religion causes the most wars is incorrect, see:
https://apholt.com/2023/01/03/the-myth-of-religion-as-the-cause-of-most-wars/#:~:text=One may certainly quibble over the omission,of the wars they count and consider.
That's different since it's optional. This isn't supposed to be. I think the leap of logi. Is here rather that Mazraoui doesn't have a view and just doesn't want to take a position.
And again, what exactly is the position Mazraoui isn't taking here? What is it that he feels he can't commit to?
Quality control
It wasn't a metaphor. You were comparing two completely different scenarios as being nearly the same.
If one refuses to show support for cancer sick kids makes you think the person doesn't car about humanity, doesn't want to help dying people. You can't compare that with someone who doesn't want to get involved in showing support for people's unorthodox sexual orientation.
And let me elaborate - I call heterosexual orientation orthodox as only in this way people can reproduce and everything else is just a kink.
So stop bashing Mazraoui, who probably in the summer has to spend his vacation in the company of his muslim family that would probably feel ashamed if their son wore a jacket that shows support of activity that would get you stoned to death according to their laws.
And I shouldn't have made that comment regarding world war 2 for which I apologize but it's extremely frustrating to hear this line trotted out so regularly as a case against religion.
In the case of world war 2 the only part that religion has had to play is that they have been the subject of persecution and murder at the hands of the non religious Nazis. Whilst acknowledging that this is abhorrent you then seem to be claiming that perhaps this conflict wouldn't have happened had the Jews not been Jewish. Can you not see how triggering that is?
Would it not be more valid to argue that without hatred towards religious groups we'd see less conflict rather than blaming people for being religious?
Appreciate this has gone quite off topic now.
It has caused quite a few deaths. How many is ok?
Again, it’s the citing of religious reasons for not wearing it that opens these people up to scrutiny.
I wouldn’t wear a rainbow lanyard at work either. I don’t wear a poppy. I don’t wear pins in support of cancer or other illnesses. I don’t put up flags or messages in my home or on my car. These decisions aren’t guided by my favourite text.
I'm not gay, just kinky.This is... wow
indeed
Of course. This was never my intention and as I said. WWII wasn’t one I’d include in my argument. Those are separate and and purely just a result of disgusting people persecuting people based on their religion.
Religion has been used as justification for horrible acts all over the world though. That can’t be denied. I was just debating the absence of all this.
In no way true.
None is ok, that was not my point.
A kink. Wow.
This is the same guy who was in the Greenwood thread pontificating whether it was BDSM and that his girlfriend took the photos for happy memories btw.
I don't know the actual statistics but historically a very large amount of wars and persecutions were indeed for religious reasons on all continents and we can go back millennia.
I agree, it’s a bit like the whole poppy debate. Some people feel almost shamed into wearing it. Just because you choose not to wear a poppy doesn’t mean you hate veterans or whatever.
I don’t like people being forced to display an affiliation, and I say that as a fairly woke guy. It’s all a bit performative for my liking.
I'm kinky and straight. Now what?
Sorry, what was your point? I seem to have missed it.
"Lots of war and most wars" don't alter the thrust of the post you were countering.