LGBTQ+ inclusion and Religion Debate in Football

[rimaldo]

Sorry I don’t get what you’re saying?

that you’re asking a hell of a lot from a bigot.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

It's unlikely because one of the big things about the Quran is that it's supposed to be "directly God's word" and untouched since it was written. Most things in it as always are a bit vague and open for interpretation but I don't think this point will ever be openly supported. It trends far more towards "live and let live" mentality rather than being against it, but also the "live and let live" thought process doesn't mean they will actively support it.

Also it's not like there an overarching pope who has the authority to make calls like that and people will listen. There's lots of different groups and maybe some hierarchy in it but nobody with the authority to truly have an impact on those issues

And does the Quran make specific reference to homosexuality? No wriggle room at all?

The absence of a Pope does seem to be a big problem. Something I never thought I’d say as an Irish man!

 

[Bole Top]

Well yes, not wearing it cause you dont like gays.

Nobody said that armband is gay right, its just a sign of support.

it's the same shit argument such as not kneeling makes you racist.

since Modric as our captain with the rest of the teammates decided our NT won't kneel, congrats, you support racists.

 

[Davìd Moyéz]

The issue with the rainbow laces campaign is the links to Stonewall which started as a group campaigning for equal rights and has become a divisive and at times extremist group. The views on primary age (or younger) gender self identification and treatment has contributed to life destroying changes and even suicides for many young people.

 

[reelworld]

I'm not saying you need to strictly adhere to all religious rules, but if you cowardly hide behind your religion saying "Islam doesn't allow me to wear rainbow, I'm sorry" rather than "I just don't feel like wearing it" than yes, you are a big hypocrite as you try to excuse your bigotry pretending "I'm forced to obey religious rules" while conveniently ignoring other rules.

Sorry, I don't get this. Are you saying that Maz and Morsy actually hate gay people and using religion as an excuse?
Because almost every religious person pick and choose what rules they want to adhere all the time, mostly out of convenience.

 

[Bole Top]

Presumably you believe anyone who outlines support for LGBT rights is doing so in a hypocritical manner?

plenty of them, yes.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

It’s not the nature of Islamic faith. Look up pictures from Afghanistan and Iran in the 60s. The way women are dressed you’d think they were western countries. People just don’t tend to be progressive when basic necessities in life (or their lives in general) get threatened. That’s where hardcore religion butters its bread.

I disagree with this take. Islam has been practiced for generations in very wealthy countries, all over the world. I’m sure you can find loads of examples of Christians living in poverty but that hasn’t stopped the religion from becoming more progressive over time.

 

[BD]

The issue with the rainbow laces campaign is the links to Stonewall which started as a group campaigning for equal rights and has become a divisive and at times extremist group. The views on primary age (or younger) gender self identification and treatment has contributed to life destroying changes and even suicides for many young people.

And that was Mazraoui's concern?

 

[Tarrou]

That’s already happening with Christian faiths. The worry is that the nature of the Islamic faith won’t allow that sort of progress? But I don’t know enough about religion to have any idea if this is true.

The mismatch between the different faiths is a bit of a worry. They all used to agree on the fundamentals of what is/isn’t a sin but only some of them seem to be moving with the times.

Christianity didn't allow that sort of progress either until it did

it took huge reforms in the age of enlightenment to kick-start the process and it still has some way to come yet

but yeah I agree, it's all very worrying at present

the world is changing too fast for religion, it seems.. it's changing too fast for a lot of things

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Sorry, I don't get this. Are you saying that Maz and Morsy actually hate gay people and using religion as an excuse?
Because almost every religious person pick and choose what rules they want to adhere all the time, mostly out of convenience.

Could they not “pick and choose” when it comes to wearing an armband/jacket/whatever?

 

[JPRouve]

My thing is…a lot of people, whether Christian or Muslim, who are against homosexuality for “religious reasons” also fornicate, gamble, haven’t opened their bible (and don’t care to) since they were a kid who had no choice because of their parents, listen to worldly music and other haram shit so I can never take their arguments seriously

And they are considered sinners. I think that it's the part that people tend to overlook, a lot of people who claim to be religious are considered sinners by other members of the faith.

 

[Davìd Moyéz]

And that was Mazraoui's concern?

No idea. He's not spoken on it. Could well be

 

[JPRouve]

Christianity didn't allow that sort of progress either until it did

it took huge reforms in the age of enlightenment to kick-start the process and it still has some way to come yet

but yeah I agree, it's all very worrying at present

the world is changing too fast for religion, it seems.. it's changing too fast for a lot of things

It still doesn't, I have the opportunity to interact with priests and nuns and their views haven't changed. The public communication is just cleaner.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Christianity didn't allow that sort of progress either until it did

it took huge reforms in the age of enlightenment to kick-start the process and it still has some way to come yet

but yeah I agree, it's all very worrying at present

the world is changing too fast for religion, it seems.. it's changing too fast for a lot of things

Agree that the reformation was important but hardline conservative views on LGBTQ issues persisted in Christian religions for a very long time after that. It’s really only the last generation or two where we’ve seen genuine progress on this. Which basically aligns with society in general. And religions really need to align with society in general on issues like this.

 

[Fridge chutney]

No idea. He's not spoken on it. Could well be

Haha yeah I'm sure this is the real reason, not that he is using his faith to justify his homophobia.

 

[bosnian_red]

And does the Quran make specific reference to homosexuality? No wriggle room at all?

The absence of a Pope does seem to be a big problem. Something I never thought I’d say as an Irish man!

No idea. Googled it and it doesn't actually seem to actually reference anything about homosexuality (which is the only part of LGBTQ+ that would have been thought of at the time). So maybe there is some hope it eventually just grows to be more accepted but it's a super slow pace. Think it's just interpretations of certain verses that some take to refer to homosexuality but others refer to adultery and no actual reference to the sex of the people in question

 

[Davìd Moyéz]

Haha yeah I'm sure this is the real reason, not that he is using his faith to justify his homophobia.

Probably more to do with that yes. But the overall vibe of this thread is that anyone not supporting the campaign is a bigot and I don't think that's fair at all.

 

[Eriku]

I disagree with this take. Islam has been practiced for generations in very wealthy countries, all over the world. I’m sure you can find loads of examples of Christians living in poverty but that hasn’t stopped the religion from becoming more progressive over time.

Obviously there are no simple one-sentence summaries, but the fact that women were freely showing their hair and shoulders and whatnot half a century ago in countries that are now theocracies shows that there are other forces than just religion at play. Christianity has also had periods where it’s been less progressive than Islam, and vice versa.

If we only had Africa to judge by then we’d be saying the same about Christianity. You only have to go back to the 70s to find laws in Norway stating it’s illegal to engage in homosexual acts. Had the west been bombed to bits back then and kept under the heel by other cultures, I doubt we’d be seeing the kinds of attitudes we see now.

Islam might have additional factors that make it hard, like the whole literal word of God thing, but to ignore the other factors is oversimplifying it, for me.

 

[Real Name]

it's the same shit argument such as not kneeling makes you racist.

since Modric as our captain with the rest of the teammates decided our NT won't kneel, congrats, you support racists.

Thanks.

You're mixing things a bit and labelling all arguments about 2 separates issues as the same.

 

[Real Name]

Obviously there are no simple one-sentence summaries, but the fact that women were freely showing their hair and shoulders and whatnot half a century ago in countries that are now theocracies shows that there are other forces than just religion at play. Christianity has also had periods where it’s been less progressive than Islam, and vice versa.

If we only had Africa to judge by then we’d be saying the same about Christianity. You only have to go back to the 70s to find laws in Norway stating it’s illegal to engage in homosexual acts. Had the west been bombed to bits back then and kept under the heel by other cultures, I doubt we’d be seeing the kinds of attitudes we see now.

Islam might have additional factors that make it hard, like the whole literal word of God thing, but to ignore the other factors is oversimplifying it, for me.

Saudi Arabia hasnt exactly been bombed to bits.

 

[JPRouve]

No idea. Googled it and it doesn't actually seem to actually reference anything about homosexuality (which is the only part of LGBTQ+ that would have been thought of at the time). So maybe there is some hope it eventually just grows to be more accepted but it's a super slow pace. Think it's just interpretations of certain verses that some take to refer to homosexuality but others refer to adultery and no actual reference to the sex of the people in question

The reference is in the context of sodomy.

1 Cor 6:9-10: "Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolators, nor the effeminate, nor those who lie with males...will inherit the kingdom of God."

Romans 1:26-27: "For this reason God handed them over to dishonorable passions, and their women exchanged their natural use for the unnatural. And similaly the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned with desire for one another, males working impropriety on males, and receiving in themselves the pay which was proper for their wandering."

1 Tim 1:9-10: "Knowing this,that the law is not there for the righteous man, but for lawless ones...sexually loose, those who lie with males...."

Jude 7: "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise acted immorally and indulged in unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire."

 

[Semper Fudge]

The issue with the rainbow laces campaign is the links to Stonewall which started as a group campaigning for equal rights and has become a divisive and at times extremist group. The views on primary age (or younger) gender self identification and treatment has contributed to life destroying changes and even suicides for many young people.

What absolute scaremongering nonsense.

 

[Eriku]

Saudi Arabia hasnt exactly been bombed to bits.

My post argues for nuance and that we shouldn’t oversimplify. You’re right, it’s not JUST about material conditions. Just like it’s not JUST about Islamic culture being different. Religion is not just a consolation for the downtrodden, it’s also a useful tool by the ruling class. The fact that we can go 50+ years back and find much more modern sensibilities in countries that are now in the dark ages points to, like I said, that it’s not just Islam.

 

[F-Red]

It's a fundamental weakness of the campaign that it is so reliant on symbolism.

 

[groovyalbert]

How many players of faiths that oppose these activities are happy to have betting company sponsirships plastered all over their kit? Or play for clubs with official alcohol sponsors? Or even - heaven forbid - have affiliate women's teams that have openly LGBTQ players?

But no - this is the issue where the need to respect "culture and beliefs" comes into it. Such bullshit - call it what it is, homophobia.

 

[BD]

No idea. He's not spoken on it. Could well be

I'd be 99.9% sure that that is not the reason. It's disingenuous to suggest that that might be the reason Mazraoui is against showing support.

 

[Invictus]

This shouldn't be news. Respect people's religions and people's support for minorities. Neither should feel imposed to the public, this just creates hate.

Respecting people's religions has always been a bit of a slippery slope, to be fair. Where's the upper threshold, if there is one (there has to be nuance and some sort of limit to acceptance, right?) Does this respect have to be absolute and boundless, no matter what the religious belief?

There are obvious practical concerns, given the commonplace nature of religious attitudes which have given shape to the very norms and structures of real societies, and you don't want to rile dogmatists by attempting to address the elephant in the room, you don't want to manufacture social unrest, and so forth. But are organized religions (and associated views and interpretations) fundamentally worthy of our respect, when they've been used to justify mass murder, colonization, classism, slavery, ethnic cleansing, misogyny, homophobia et cetera throughout human history?

Of course, these atrocities have happened, and could have happened, independently of organized religion, there is no doubt about that. Humans, especially large groups of 'em, certainly didn't and don't need the pretext of religion to be cruel to each other, historically or contemporarily.

But organized religion does promote echo chambers of ingroup-outgroup thinking (this polarization tends to be the root of so many issues), leads to consolidation of irrational beliefs (including deleterious ones), provides theological foundations or frameworks to be adhered to (that are not supposed to be publicly questioned in fear of violent reprisals, even now, in many parts of the modern world), serves as a convenient control mechanism for the people who in turn codify and control religion (religious men and the prevailing upper crest of society, in cahoots with each other), and on and on.

 

[JPRouve]

My post argues for nuance and that we shouldn’t oversimplify. You’re right, it’s not JUST about material conditions. Just like it’s not JUST about Islamic culture being different. Religion is not just a consolation for the downtrodden, it’s also a useful tool by the ruling class. The fact that we can go 50+ years back and find much more modern sensibilities in countries that are now in the dark ages points to, like I said, that it’s not just Islam.

To add to this, cultures should be plural. There has always been a range of cultures within Islam and they have different degree of tolerance on certain topics.

 

[Tarrou]

How many players of faiths that oppose these activities are happy to have betting company sponsirships plastered all over their kit? Or play for clubs with official alcohol sponsors? Or even - heaven forbid - have affiliate women's teams that have openly LGBTQ players?

But no - this is the issue where the need to respect "culture and beliefs" comes into it. Such bullshit - call it what it is, homophobia.

well, they probably aren't happy with it but don't have much choice in the matter

 

[Davìd Moyéz]

What absolute scaremongering nonsense.

Which bit?

 

[Eriku]

To add to this, cultures should be plural. There are always been a range of cultures within Islam and they have different degree of tolerance on certain topics.

Also true. Christians know this, there’s a world of difference between Lutherans and adherents of Christian Science, say. Or South American Catholics and Anglicans.

 

[bosnian_red]

The reference is in the context of sodomy.

Seems to all stem from the story of Lot (which I'm now learning is the same reason for it in Christianity), who some say it's sodomy, some say it's homosexuality, some say adultery, some say rape. A classic religious misunderstanding if you will...

 

[Bole Top]

Thanks.

You're mixing things a bit and labelling all arguments about 2 separates issues as the same.

nah, it's the same principle. yesterday someone repeated couple of times "it's just an armband".

in past it was "it's just a knee(ling)".

you don't support our cause, you hate us so I wish you rot in Championship.

not United of course, just Ipswich.

 

[Fridge chutney]

Probably more to do with that yes. But the overall vibe of this thread is that anyone not supporting the campaign is a bigot and I don't think that's fair at all.

I see no other interpretation of his actions than homophobia.

 

[moses]

It still doesn't, I have the opportunity to interact with priests and nuns and their views haven't changed. The public communication is just cleaner.

The Anglicans and the like are much more progressive than the Catholics.

 

[reelworld]

Could they not “pick and choose” when it comes to wearing an armband/jacket/whatever?

I don't know, you have to ask them.

 

[Doracle]

Can anyone explain the Guehi situation to me? Is what he is writing on his armband anti-lgbt in some way? On the face of it, it looks harmless (albeit in breach of the rules re religious messaging) but I don’t then get why it’s so important to him to have that message on the rainbow armband.

 

[JPRouve]

The Anglicans and the like are much more progressive than the Catholics.

Don't get me started on the Catholics, this thread is triggering me with the idea that they have an ounce of tolerance.

 

[NotChatGPT]

It’s the paradox of tolerance.

I mean, in an ideal world everyone respects everyone. Its not an ideal world but you can still behave and respect the situation for what it is as long as people function together without spreading hate. People can still have vastly different religious views without it really being a problem that needs to be solved, you just accept they have different opinions. I’m not religious at all, grew up in a family with an open minded approach to life and people, i travel the world for work, you take a pragmatic approach to life and accept that there’s always going to be different opinions but as long as those opinions aren’t forced upon others, which can turn into violence, then you can’t really hope for much more. Not sure what else there is to hope for, everyone isn’t going to agree. Just like being openly gay in Oslo and holding hands, plenty of people won’t agree with what they’re seeing but very few will say something or show a negative reaction. We’re a group of friends that met through work, vastly different religious views, but there hasn’t been any problems or arguments. My best friend married a woman from Iraq with deeply religious parents that strongly opposed her being together with someone outside their religion, that was an absolute shitshow for year with threats, moving to a different city, trying to force her to end it. 20 years later it’s still a problem. In terms of homosexuality, i suppose it comes down to a question if you can believe it’s wrong but accept and respect that people are homosexual.

 

[Bole Top]

I see no other interpretation of his actions than homophobia.

I'd be surprised had he even met one gay person in his life. it's probably more of him trying to respect what he believes in than having any kind of negative feelings toward gays.