LGBTQ+ inclusion and Religion Debate in Football

[Mogget]

A society seeing a belief as incorrect is one thing. A society not allowing what it sees as an incorrect belief is another.

I may be getting hung up on your wording. If the society wants to be critical of a belief it sees as incorrect, sure. When I see the phrase "I disagree that people should be allowed to believe something" it makes me think that you're advocating for mechanisms that would actually disallow a given belief.

I don't really see what mechanisms you can have to disallow beliefs so it's surely moot.

 

[Wing Attack Plan R]

I said before he joined that this was a potential landmine, and lo it came it to pass. Club should have fined Mazraoui for not participating. He can do whatever he likes, but there are consequences. I think this sets us back, sets football back, and sets back the struggle for equality. Very bad look. Football shouldn't be bending to appease any one person's regressive/repressive beliefs. Mazraroui is the one who needs to change, and letting him think this is acceptable just normalizes hatred, intolerance, and bigotry.

 

[Cheimoon]

We can argue the toss about 1% vs 0.00000001% all day but it doesn't change the fact that if the biological basis of binary holds sex holds true for 99%+ of the population then we should probably accept that yes, biological sex is, to all intents and purposes, binary. Which is not to deny the fact that there really are people for whom this doesn't hold true. But that's no reason to pretend that it exists as a spectrum.

I should have checked back better before first responding, but you're only talking about people with actual disorders of sexual development (DSDs) here: where "their sex chromosomes say one thing, but their gonads (ovaries or testes) or sexual anatomy say another". But as the article says:

What's more, new technologies in DNA sequencing and cell biology are revealing that almost everyone is, to varying degrees, a patchwork of genetically distinct cells, some with a sex that might not match that of the rest of their body. Some studies even suggest that the sex of each cell drives its behaviour, through a complicated network of molecular interactions. “I think there's much greater diversity within male or female, and there is certainly an area of overlap where some people can't easily define themselves within the binary structure,” says John Achermann, who studies sex development and endocrinology at University College London's Institute of Child Health.

So you have 100% of the population that is somewhere on the sex spectrum, and 1% of the population where this takes the shape of what is considered a disorder.

To me, this is an important perspective; it creates a huge caveat to the binary idea of manly men vs womanly women. And to actually kinda make this go on topic: I think a better public understanding of this complexity would help against sex and gender-based discrimination and stereotypes.

 

[tomaldinho1]

I don't get why the club wouldn't just do it, and then say if players individually do not want to partake they can not wear them.

Makes the ones who don't do it look like prats but also isn't forcing anyone to do anything.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I should have checked back better before first responding, but you're only talking about people with actual disorders of sexual development (DSDs) here: where "their sex chromosomes say one thing, but their gonads (ovaries or testes) or sexual anatomy say another". But as the article says:

So you have 100% of the population that is somewhere on the sex spectrum, and 1% of the population where this takes the shape of what is considered a disorder.

To me, this is an important perspective; it creates a huge caveat to the binary idea of manly men vs womanly women. And to actually kinda make this go on topic: I think a better public understanding of this complexity would help against sex and gender-based discrimination and stereotypes.

We’re so far off topic that I should really let this slide but what’s being discussed there is incredibly hypothetical, far-fetched stuff. The body of evidence behind it is nowhere near strong enough to contradict the basic fundamentals, which very clearly establish that biological sex really is binary. As binary as anything that can be established in a messy science like biology.

 

[Cheimoon]

We’re so far off topic that I should really let this slide but what’s being discussed there is incredibly hypothetical, far-fetched stuff. The body of evidence behind it is nowhere near strong enough to contradict the basic fundamentals, which very clearly establish that biological sex really is binary. As binary as anything that can be established in a messy science like biology.

I don't see it, but yes, let's drop it.

 

[Fridge chutney]

I don't understand the uproar. It's another token gesture that means feck all other than to virtue signal.

Then why didn't he wear the jacket?

 

[Redivy]

Some Muslims and more Conservative Christians should accept that people are gay and get the feck over it tbh. This very debate sums up why these campaigns are needed in the first place.

I'm all for accepting religion and people's views but too many would happily see us revert back to the early 1960s when homosexuality was illegal. Even, section 28 wasn't even reversed that long ago in the grand scheme of history.

What's interesting is if the debate had been again, centred arpund a campaign supporting BLM again and if a United player had refused to support that, the posts on here would be very different.

All "normal" people accepted that racism was bad. There still seems to be nuance around campaigning for LGTBQ people as if homophobia is a lesser prejudice.

This is why I said that it will always be conflicting. Whilst this forum is very liberal, society in reality is a lot closer to a 50/50 split on this topic.

In a utopia, we’d all live happily, all religions would coexist, all humans would be inclusive of everyone, no matter their sexuality.

But Islam is on the rise in the UK, and every year more and more Muslim athletes are joining the PL. Eventually these situations will become more common. All that will change is clubs will become smarter in avoiding these situations.

My point originally was that there is no way you can be inclusive to both Islam and the LGBTQ. I’m sure there are some people who can sit in the middle, but from personal experience, the overwhelming majority of Muslims will oppose LGBTQ.

I’m not Muslim, so if someone from their community wants to correct, that’s fine. But that’s how I see things.

 

[Ole'sgunnarwin]

I think players and teams can be part of campaigns but I think on the pitch players shouldn't be forced to support any causes.

1. You're not going to find hundreds of people who have the same beliefs.
2. There is a clash between religion and LGBT issues and I don't think wearing an armband solves it.
3. Football fans are very tribal. If one player refuses to wear something, a huge chunk of fans will support the action and worse agree with it.
4. A cause like the 'taking the knee', it's been done for years now. The amount of times I hear fans saying 'not this again'. I'm not sure the action itself at this stage is benefitting anyone.

Of course everyone has the right to stand up for what they believe. But I do feel football fans aren't the most tolerant bunch and I don't think they'll change because of these causes.

 

[Jippy]

This is why I said that it will always be conflicting. Whilst this forum is very liberal, society in reality is a lot closer to a 50/50 split on this topic.

In a utopia, we’d all live happily, all religions would coexist, all humans would be inclusive of everyone, no matter their sexuality.

But Islam is on the rise in the UK, and every year more and more Muslim athletes are joining the PL. Eventually these situations will become more common. All that will change is clubs will become smarter in avoiding these situations.

My point originally was that there is no way you can be inclusive to both Islam and the LGBTQ. I’m sure there are some people who can sit in the middle, but from personal experience, the overwhelming majority of Muslims will oppose LGBTQ.

I’m not Muslim, so if someone from their community wants to correct, that’s fine. But that’s how I see things.

No shit.

 

[Bole Top]

Maz shouldn't even be talked about imo, he's the only one with good enough reasons not to wear the jacket while everyone else simply joined the long list of fighters for the cause until a first sign of inconvenience.

he has deep personal beliefs which prevent him for participating, while the club have what? not being able to take perfect photo? it won't look good on their web page?

it looks everyone was more concerned of the secondary stuff more than they actually cared for the cause they were doing all this in the first place.

even the rest of the squad caring about how Maz would look or feel singled out makes little sense. it's his own personal choice. he literally wants to be in that position and was perfectly happy to lead by example and face the possible negative feedback, just like he faced it when he openly supported Palestine. he is simply one of those guys who is comfortable going against the dominant narrative, there is little need to protect him like he's some 12 y old kid.

I already stated several times that I fully support the player here, but if I was the president of the club, there's no way I would've let everything collapse because of single player if I was trully committed.

so in the end his right to refuse the jacket got respected, players didn't want him singled out so didn't want to participate and the club called everything off once it became obvious they weren't getting their perfect photo. on top of that, Maz looked unfazed by everything in our game vs Arsenal while the club will be in that same position next year.

the club ended up looking much worse than Maz here.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Maz shouldn't even be talked about imo, he's the only one with good enough reasons not to wear the jacket while everyone else simply joined the long list of fighters for the cause until a first sign of inconvenience.

he has deep personal beliefs which prevent him for participating, while the club have what? not being able to take perfect photo? it won't look good on their web page?

it looks everyone was more concerned of the secondary stuff more than they actually cared for the cause they were doing all this in the first place.

even the rest of the squad caring about how Maz would look or feel singled out makes little sense. it's his own personal choice. he literally wants to be in that position and was perfectly happy to lead by example and face the possible negative feedback, just like he faced it when he openly supported Palestine. he is simply one of those guys who is comfortable going against the dominant narrative, there is little need to protect him like he's some 12 y old kid.

I already stated several times that I fully support the player here, but if I was the president of the club, there's no way I would've let everything collapse because of single player if I was trully committed.

so in the end his right to refuse the jacket got respected, players didn't want him singled out so didn't want to participate and the club called everything off once it became obvious they weren't getting their perfect photo. on top of that, Maz looked unfazed by everything in our game vs Arsenal while the club will be in that same position next year.

the club ended up looking much worse than Maz here.

The way you align support for Palestine with a homophobic refusal to support the LGBT cause is… quite something…

 

[Jippy]

Maz shouldn't even be talked about imo, he's the only one with good enough reasons not to wear the jacket while everyone else simply joined the long list of fighters for the cause until a first sign of inconvenience.

he has deep personal beliefs which prevent him for participating, while the club have what? not being able to take perfect photo? it won't look good on their web page?

it looks everyone was more concerned of the secondary stuff more than they actually cared for the cause they were doing all this in the first place.

even the rest of the squad caring about how Maz would look or feel singled out makes little sense. it's his own personal choice. he literally wants to be in that position and was perfectly happy to lead by example and face the possible negative feedback, just like he faced it when he openly supported Palestine. he is simply one of those guys who is comfortable going against the dominant narrative, there is little need to protect him like he's some 12 y old kid.

I already stated several times that I fully support the player here, but if I was the president of the club, there's no way I would've let everything collapse because of single player if I was trully committed.

so in the end his right to refuse the jacket got respected, players didn't want him singled out so didn't want to participate and the club called everything off once it became obvious they weren't getting their perfect photo. on top of that, Maz looked unfazed by everything in our game vs Arsenal while the club will be in that same position next year.

the club ended up looking much worse than Maz here.

Neither of them came out of it looking good, so that's hardly a positive for him.

 

[Maticmaker]

Agree with this. Don’t make him wear one, but don’t call the whole thing off.

This would have been the sensible and fair way to go, makes you wonder why this option wasn't chosen?

 

[Bole Top]

The way you align support for Palestine with a homophobic refusal to support the LGBT cause is… quite something…

those are the things he got bashed for in Germany. him being entirely comfortable in such position is the whole point, not debating where he is right and where he is wrong.

 

[Lynty]

The way you align support for Palestine with a homophobic refusal to support the LGBT cause is… quite something…

Homophobic refusal is a bit of stretch

 

[nickm]

Do you get along with people who consider who you are as person something sinful and to be rejected?

Some people get off on it...

 

[Bole Top]

Neither of them came out of it looking good, so that's hardly a positive for him.

true, but the gay community never really counts on people like Maz anyway.

they expected nothing from him. they got that.

 

[SilentWitness]

true, but the gay community never really counts on people like Maz anyway.

they expected nothing from him. they got that.

Unfortunately they got more than that. They got let down more.

 

[nickm]

If there was an armband everyone was wearing for sick kids with cancer and one player refused to wear it, you'd question why that was. It's just the same thing here.

He might well be in favour but perhaps he generally prefers to keep his opinions to himself? There's always going to be some people who consider this kind of thing trite and meaningless.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Homophobic refusal is a bit of stretch

Well he refused and the motivation can only be homophobic. If he’s not homophobic (for religious reasons or otherwise) why refuse?

 

[Bole Top]

Unfortunately they got more than that. They got let down more.

not by Maz himself though. he was never their ally.

as for the club...

 

[Jippy]

true, but the gay community never really counts on people like Maz anyway.

they expected nothing from him. they got that.

I doubt anyone in the lgbt community looks to premier league footballers for inspiration, given no top flight player has come out in the last 34 years. The whole campaign is rendered a charade when (the vast majority of) players will wear the rainbow laces, but the sport provides zero role models.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I doubt anyone in the lgbt community looks to premier league footballers for inspiration, given no top flight player has come out in the last 34 years. The whole campaign is rendered a charade when (the vast majority of) players will wear the rainbow laces, but the sport provides zero role models.

Doesn’t the lack of role models make token gestures like the laces all the more important?

 

[nickm]

Doesn’t the lack of role models make token gestures like the laces all the more important?

If a gesture is token, then it's probably not worth doing.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

If a gesture is token, then it's probably not worth doing.

I disagree. Token gestures add up over time.

 

[Mainoonited]

Yeah and respecting someone's right to consider all gay people sinners is very inclusive.

Yes it is. In every religion, unless you follow their rules, you are a sinner, including members of said religions. People who nearly always follow the rules and on one occasion don't are also sinners.

I am a sinner, in fact I believe every human adult is a sinner. Why should that bother anyone? It doesn't impact how I engage with anyone.

 

[nickm]

I disagree. Token gestures add up over time.

I would say if this was the sort of thing that was a part of a programme of support that had some financing or other goals behind it, or perhaps it was tied to a particular resonant moment designed to amplify it (like taking the knee) then it's not token - the weight behind the support shows a seriousness of intent.

Otherwise, like "when the right time is to wear a poppy", it becomes something trivialised and more about something else, eg conformity, rightness, public relations, brand alignment, ie not about the cause itself but ancillary things.

 

[Jippy]

Doesn’t the lack of role models make token gestures like the laces all the more important?

I'm a bit torn on this. Some of the community initiatives happening do sound good, but the laces campaign feels like it lacks substance, given players will wear them but there are no openly gay players for youngsters to look up to. Maybe it does all add up and doing nothing isn't a great option, but the sport clearly has been unable to provide any inclusivity for for its own players.

 

[Eugenius]

I wonder if this would all be perceived the same in an ordinary workplace. For example we had LGBTQIA+ rainbow lanyards handed out at work and not everyone chose to wear them, which is clearly not all due to homophobia.

My personal feeling is that many of the rainbow related campaigns are becoming tedious because 1) a large part becoming insincere and hijacked by corporations for their own purposes and 2) too much of an open canvas in terms of what cause is being projected e.g. gay rights/anti discrimination vs transgender, intersex and other debates vs overt expression of sexuality like in a pride parade.

If the PL wanted to send anti discrimination message they should have an explicit message (in the same vein as the simple no to racism type stuff) and if footballers don't want to wear that then you can call them homophobic etc.

 

[That_Bloke]

This is why I said that it will always be conflicting. Whilst this forum is very liberal, society in reality is a lot closer to a 50/50 split on this topic.

In a utopia, we’d all live happily, all religions would coexist, all humans would be inclusive of everyone, no matter their sexuality.

But Islam is on the rise in the UK, and every year more and more Muslim athletes are joining the PL. Eventually these situations will become more common. All that will change is clubs will become smarter in avoiding these situations.

My point originally was that there is no way you can be inclusive to both Islam and the LGBTQ. I’m sure there are some people who can sit in the middle, but from personal experience, the overwhelming majority of Muslims will oppose LGBTQ.

I’m not Muslim, so if someone from their community wants to correct, that’s fine. But that’s how I see things.

Well, well...

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I'm a bit torn on this. Some of the community initiatives happening do sound good, but the laces campaign feels like it lacks substance, given players will wear them but there are no openly gay players for youngsters to look up to. Maybe it does all add up and doing nothing isn't a great option, but the sport clearly has been unable to provide any inclusivity for for its own players.

I think of it as a sort of very slow incremental progress. We're not yet at the stage where a footballer feels ready to come out but stuff like rainbow laces and zero tolerance of homophobic chanting all add up towards making it feel like a more welcoming place. I reckon the recent huge increase of the profile of women's football is also helping. Loads of out gay players in that league.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I wonder if this would all be perceived the same in an ordinary workplace. For example we had LGBTQIA+ rainbow lanyards handed out at work and not everyone chose to wear them, which is clearly not all due to homophobia.

My personal feeling is that many of the rainbow related campaigns are becoming tedious because 1) a large part becoming insincere and hijacked by corporations for their own purposes and 2) too much of an open canvas in terms of what cause is being projected e.g. gay rights/anti discrimination vs transgender, intersex and other debates vs overt expression of sexuality like in a pride parade.

If the PL wanted to send anti discrimination message they should have an explicit message (in the same vein as the simple no to racism type stuff) and if footballers don't want to wear that then you can call them homophobic etc.

Clearly, eh?

 

[nickm]

I think of it as a sort of very slow incremental progress. We're not yet at the stage where a footballer feels ready to come out but stuff like rainbow laces and zero tolerance of homophobic chanting all add up towards making it feel like a more welcoming place. I reckon the recent huge increase of the profile of women's football is also helping. Loads of out gay players in that league.

But still, 34 years! I mean, we're two generations past Justin Fashanu now.

 

[Lynty]

Well he refused and the motivation can only be homophobic. If he’s not homophobic (for religious reasons or otherwise) why refuse?

Doesn't the Quran and Bible also teach that sex outside marriage is also a sin? Does that mean Guehi and Maz are prejudiced towards everyone in their squad who is in a relationship and unmarried? So Maz hates Rashford?

I think they can disagree with something without having prejudice towards that person.

 

[nickm]

Clearly, eh?

I think so, some people just go to work for the mission of the business. That's all.

 

[Mainoonited]

This is why I said that it will always be conflicting. Whilst this forum is very liberal, society in reality is a lot closer to a 50/50 split on this topic.

In a utopia, we’d all live happily, all religions would coexist, all humans would be inclusive of everyone, no matter their sexuality.

But Islam is on the rise in the UK, and every year more and more Muslim athletes are joining the PL. Eventually these situations will become more common. All that will change is clubs will become smarter in avoiding these situations.

My point originally was that there is no way you can be inclusive to both Islam and the LGBTQ. I’m sure there are some people who can sit in the middle, but from personal experience, the overwhelming majority of Muslims will oppose LGBTQ.

I’m not Muslim, so if someone from their community wants to correct, that’s fine. But that’s how I see things.

I'm a Muslim.

I'd like to know why you think you can't be inclusive of Muslims and the LGBTQ community?

I have a work colleague transitioning from female to male, this colleague now uses "they". This colleague has a female partner.

It has impacted in my engagement with that colleague. I've made an active effort to engage socially with that colleague in the workplace, so that colleague doesn't feel that as an openly Muslim man, i have any negativity towards said colleague.

Also idk if anyone of you have experienced this - but it's insane how over a period of time, this person has gone from looking like a slightly boyish female, to a full on bloke.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Doesn't the Quran and Bible also teach that sex outside marriage is also a sin? Does that mean Guehi and Maz are prejudiced towards everyone in their squad who is in a relationship and unmarried? So Maz hates Rashford?

I think they can disagree with something without having prejudice towards that person.

I mean, yes, if they're consistent.

Although I suspect lots of religious people aren't consistent at all. They lean into the homophobic teachings of their religion but take the elements which might cause cognitive dissonance about the inclinations of them and their friends (or team mates) a lot less seriously.

 

[Mainoonited]

Well he refused and the motivation can only be homophobic. If he’s not homophobic (for religious reasons or otherwise) why refuse?

Muslims are taught not to promote sinful behavior. Refusing to wear the rainbow armband is no different to Kanoute not wearing the 888 sponsorship on his Sevilla shirt.

It could be argued that the rainbow armband is not about promoting homosexuality and more about respecting the rights of homosexual people to not be mistreated. But then an argument could be made the other way that pride movement is about promotion of homosexuality.

Personally I had a rainbow lanyard at my last workplace - mainly because i like the colours, but also because for me, im happy to be seen as someone who promotes non discrimination against anyone. I didn't think to deeply about if it actually is promoting lgbtq... etc.

 

[Mainoonited]

I mean, yes, if they're consistent.

Although I suspect lots of religious people aren't consistent at all. They lean into the homophobic teachings of their religion but take the elements which might cause cognitive dissonance about the inclinations of them and their friends (or team mates) a lot less seriously.

The problem here is clearly how little you understand islam. What makes you think that Islam teaches us to be prejudiced against people who don't follow the rules of our religion?

1. The rules only apply to those who choose to be Muslim.
2. The individual has no right to judge anyone else, the only person that can pass judgement, is an actual judge, or God.
3. The judge only passes judgements on things which cause societal harm. If a man was privately drinking beer within his own walls, thats his private sin. If he was doing it on the street, thats a criminal offence (in islam).
4. We all commit sin, each and every one of us.