LGBTQ+ inclusion and Religion Debate in Football

moses said:
He singled himself out. The team backed him up. People are unimpressed by his initial decision. That's not intolerance.

As I said it's the team that were short sighted. It's hard to fathom they didn't see this reaction coming.
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It’s incompetence from the club not to think about these issues well in advance of the day.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
Racism is not defined as a hate crime. A hate crime is a crime motivated by racism or another discriminatory belief.

As I said in my post, we 'tolerate' certain things because of the belief in have freedom of thought, privacy, association. We become less 'tolerant' when people's actions start infringing on the rights of others. Mazraoui did not commit a hate crime or use hate speech or do anything that infringes upon the rights of others in this context.
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We don't "tolerate" racism at all. The reason its defined as an act motivated by discriminatory belief is because in many cases you can also commit the same crime for non discriminatory reasons. It also covers things that would not be crimes at all if they weren't motivated by discriminatory beliefs. (such as, for example, being racist to someone).

We don't tolerate or not tolerate freedom of thought. It is just a thing. Someone might have a thought that they'd like to get a gun and shoot some children. You're not going to stop them thinking it. This does not mean that you "tolerate" it.

No one is suggesting Mazrouri has commited a hate crime, but the fact his religious beliefs make him and others feel like they can't accept the rights of LGBT people, is something that definitely should be highlighted, because it is exactly what fuels hate crimes and discrimination.

I think you need to take him as an individual out of the equation. As do the people labelling him a bigot. He didn't invent religion.
 
TheGame said:
It’s incompetence from the club not to think about these issues well in advance of the day.
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Incompetence at best. The thought they didn't think someone would leak it would imply that none of them really know what a sensitive issue it is.
 
moses said:
Incompetence at best. The thought they didn't think someone would leak it would imply that none of them really know what a sensitive issue it is.
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Or the fact they didn’t think to discuss with Mazorui and preempt the situation and think of perhaps other ways they could have promoted the issue with less problems.
 
As much as Naz's personal beliefs, it is worth noting that international Moroccan sports stars that represent Morocco to the world, will be tightly aligned with the King and the monarchy. They receive honorary titles, expensive gifts and cash money all the time.

They are seen as heroes for the nation, so the controlling elites don't want their popular sport figures to go against the grain. It's what dictatorships and monarchies do.

Of course, this don't absolve him of anything, just as his personal beliefs don't.

So he is either an ignorant piece of shit (if he actually is homophobic) or a coward with no morals (if he is not homophobic but is too scared to support gay people openly because of repercussions back home).

I choose to believe in the latter of course. Not ideal but there is a reason there is only one Muhammad Ali. We are a shit species.

ps. The club though... zero excuses.
 
dubplate warrior said:
So then every person who practices an abrahamic faith is a homophobe. Will let over half the world know on your behalf.
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Well they are members of a homophobic institution, that said not all Abrahamic religions are equally intolerant on this subject. But even with ones that aren't as open minded there is a large degree of understanding and tolerance creeping in.
 
dubplate warrior said:
So then every person who practices an abrahamic faith is a homophobe. Will let over half the world know on your behalf.
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Nope. I know many religious people who are absolutely accepting of queer people. Christians and Muslims. Which is why I can't stand many of the anti religious comments made in threads like these.
But try again. You might make an actual argument at one point.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
There is literally no way to prevent people from believing in anything. Except, I suppose, killing them.

There are repercussions, they are: you don't have to like them, think highly of them, or associate with them. I think less of people who are homophobic.
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No, but I think more could and should be done to counter and criticise bigoted beliefs.
 
TheGame said:
Yeah I’m taking issue with the journalist in question because he is a Cnut. The whole issue should not have been leaked in the first place, it’s related to a training tracksuit. You seem to think it’s good it’s been leaked we disagree on that.

Your views based on Mazouri not wearing something for something he disagrees with is to label him a number of things. I can disagree with him without resorting to that. That’s the fecking difference.
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You label people all the time, what on earth are you talking about? You just don't do it in this instance, because it's a United player.

You agreed with a comment that characterized a big part of the people participating here, including me, as oppressors, and engaging in behaviour as bad as bigotry. That means, by extremely straight forward logic, that it's as serious a label as explicitly labeling someone as a bigot. So, you did that.
 
hobbers said:
Good question. Being critical of the religious beliefs while not singling him out for having them, I guess.
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Whereas I would think it's fine to criticise him directly - he can choose which beliefs to have after all. But I would be 'tolerant' of him in the sense that I wouldn't want him to be physically harmed for holding these views.
 
dubplate warrior said:
So then every person who practices an abrahamic faith is a homophobe. Will let over half the world know on your behalf.
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No. I know plenty of religious gays and plenty of religious people who have no problem whatsoever with gays. What a stupid thing to say.
 
NotThatSoph said:
You label people all the time, what on earth are you talking about? You just don't do it in this instance, because it's a United player.

You agreed with a comment that characterized a big part of the people participating here, including me, as oppressors, and engaging in behaviour as bad as bigotry. That means, by extremely straight forward logic, that it's as serious a label as explicitly labeling someone as a bigot. So, you did that.
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You seem to be claiming victim yourself. I don’t agree with the reaction of some people including you however you seem to inventing words based on me agreeing with a post which was an objective view on the situation and agreed by others.

We seem to disagree a lot on the issue and are going back and forth so let’s just leave it at that.
 
noodlehair said:
We don't "tolerate" racism at all. The reason its defined as an act motivated by discriminatory belief is because in many cases you can also commit the same crime for non discriminatory reasons. It also covers things that would not be crimes at all if they weren't motivated by discriminatory beliefs. (such as, for example, being racist to someone).
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Ok then call the police on Mazraoui.
 
You dont have to like it to wear a jacket that supports it nor do you need to publically comment about LGBTQ
 
Raven said:
No. I know plenty of religious gays and plenty of religious people who have no problem whatsoever with gays. What a stupid thing to say.
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Its amazing that people cant comprehend the difference between tolerance and promotion.
 
TheGame said:
You seem to be claiming victim yourself. I don’t agree with the reaction of some people including you however you seem to inventing words based on me agreeing with a post which was an objective view on the situation and agreed by others.

We seem to disagree a lot on the issue and are going back and forth so let’s just leave it at that.
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No, it's super funny in fact, but do continue to make things up in an attempt to help your case.

I'll be sure to remember going forward that you agreeing with things isn't you agreeing with things. It's like that Nani Nani guy and Elon Musk all over again.
 
dubplate warrior said:
Its amazing that people cant comprehend the difference between tolerance and promotion.
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What do you mean by promotion? Straight people are going to turn gay because united is promoting it? What's being promoted here is not any sexual orientation, it's the idea that whatever sexual orientation, everyone deserves to be treated with respect and be included in all parts of society.
 
TheGame said:
You seem to be claiming victim yourself. I don’t agree with the reaction of some people including you however you seem to inventing words based on me agreeing with a post which was an objective view on the situation and agreed by others.

We seem to disagree a lot on the issue and are going back and forth so let’s just leave it at that.
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The whole thread says thanks.
 
dubplate warrior said:
Its amazing that people cant comprehend the difference between tolerance and promotion.
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I can actually. I know plenty of religious people who actively campaigned for gay marriage here in Ireland. You're on a roll here, let's see if you can make it a hat trick of moronic statements.
 
NotThatSoph said:
No, it's super funny in fact, but do continue to make things up in an attempt to help your case.

I'll be sure to remember going forward that you agreeing with things isn't you agreeing with things. It's like that Nani Nani guy and Elon Musk all over again.
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WTF are you going on about. I’ve made my views clear. I can disagree with the player yet understand why he made his decision. You’ve literally aligned yourself with other posters to say Im victimising them. Get a grip.
 
Thinking about it... The club could definitely have done far more on this issue. Liverpool have the most famous Muslim footballer to perhaps ever exist... Has he ever worn a rainbow armband or laces? Has there ever been any controversy about him? Think they've just been clever to not highlight something.

This Mazraoui thing wouldn't have been a thing if United weren't thinking of having every player wear a coat (to then lead to it being leaked). It was a risky move to start with (albeit with good intentions) as the second you get a player who doesn't want to openly and actively support it (inevitable given just how much of the world has pretty strong homophobic beliefs), you run into this issue. Just leave it with the captain's armband and make sure your captain is always somebody who is inclusive of all and they can properly represent the club.

Edit: was trying to think of the most popular Muslim footballers. Pogba openly spoke about how a gay footballer coming out in the premier league would be respected and deserve everyone's respect. Fair play to him for actually speaking out in support. Bit easier as he's from France and not a country with backwards laws on the topic, but probably the closest I could find.
 
maniak said:
What do you mean by promotion? Straight people are going to turn gay because united is promoting it? What's being promoted here is not any sexual orientation, it's the idea that whatever sexual orientation, everyone deserves to be treated with respect and be included in all parts of society.
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That's obviously not how he's construed it though.
Raven said:
I can actually. I know plenty of religious people who actively campaigned for gay marriage here in Ireland. You're on a roll here, let's see if you can make it a hat trick of moronic statements.
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Congratulations, you know lots of religious people. You clearly speak for everyone who practices their faith. Go to the local mosque and preach your message, I'm sure it will go well. Also you are from Ireland, blown my mind.
 
bosnian_red said:
Thinking about it... The club could definitely have done far more on this issue. Liverpool have the most famous Muslim footballer to perhaps ever exist... Has he ever worn a rainbow armband or laces? Has there ever been any controversy about him? Think they've just been clever to not highlight something.

This Mazraoui thing wouldn't have been a thing if United weren't thinking of having every player wear a coat (to then lead to it being leaked). It was a risky move to start with (albeit with good intentions) as the second you get a player who doesn't want to openly and actively support it (inevitable given just how much of the world has pretty strong homophobic beliefs), you run into this issue. Just leave it with the captain's armband and make sure your captain is always somebody who is inclusive of all and they can properly represent the club.
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He was blasted by many Muslims because he celebrated Christmas.
 
In the future, clubs need to get together and do something a little bit different, maybe a video that’s shown throughout the month with participants from various clubs taking part.

The issue with players choosing to not partake in the current strategies such as rainbow laces, armbands, shirts etc is slowly becoming more of an issue and I believe the above strategy is the best way to deal with it.

Many football clubs do a lot of work in the community with regards to inclusion and diversity and we need to put that at the forefront of the message and not these public shows which are becoming a distraction.
 
TheGame said:
WTF are you going on about. I’ve made my views clear. I can disagree with the player yet understand why he made his decision. You’ve literally aligned yourself with other posters to say in victimising them. Get a grip.
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No one is a victim just because some morons on the internet think they're being literal oppressors and as bad as bigots for criticizing some footballers. It's a privilege, if anything.
 
dubplate warrior said:
That's obviously not how he's construed it though.

Congratulations, you know lots of religious people. You clearly speak for everyone who practices their faith. Go to the local mosque and preach your message, I'm sure it will go well. Also you are from Ireland, blown my mind.
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You need to calm down a wee bit. He never said he spoke for all religious people, that was your accusation, twice now. And a few posters pointed this out to you.
 
bosnian_red said:
Thinking about it... The club could definitely have done far more on this issue. Liverpool have the most famous Muslim footballer to perhaps ever exist... Has he ever worn a rainbow armband or laces? Has there ever been any controversy about him? Think they've just been clever to not highlight something.

This Mazraoui thing wouldn't have been a thing if United weren't thinking of having every player wear a coat (to then lead to it being leaked). It was a risky move to start with (albeit with good intentions) as the second you get a player who doesn't want to openly and actively support it (inevitable given just how much of the world has pretty strong homophobic beliefs), you run into this issue. Just leave it with the captain's armband and make sure your captain is always somebody who is inclusive of all and they can properly represent the club.

Edit: was trying to think of the most popular Muslim footballers. Pogba openly spoke about how a gay footballer coming out in the premier league would be respected and deserve everyone's respect. Fair play to him for actually speaking out in support. Bit easier as he's from France and not a country with backwards laws on the topic, but probably the closest I could find.
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Yep. It's mad this is not somebody's job.
 
Can see this thread going downhill so gonna sum up in a few points.

1. Football should have avoided getting involved in any of these campaigns to start with and should have left it to individuals. I'd include the poppy and remembrance in that. That wasn't a thing until 2010.

2. Once it decided it was going to jump on these issues, it's only correct that it got behind anti racism and supported Ukraine after it was invaded by Russia. After all, if you're in favour of players of all nationalities essentially being forced to wear the poppy or back one particular nation in a war, you've let "football and politics mix". On a side note, the abuse James McLean gets every year is a disgrace.

3. If you've ultimately allowed point 1 and point 2, you're saying that a) football politics can mix and b) players can be part of a campaign even if their values don't mix 100%. It's only correct that football plays a small part in the fight against homophobia. If you're against that, you're ultimately close to being on the same side as someone like Nigel Farage who essentially believes that football and politics can mix when it comes to remembrance and the poppy but not when it comes to say taking the knee.
 
Hopefully everyone will agree with this take. In the end the club as a multicultural institution should promote inclusion and tolerance but no individual should be put in a position where they have to promote someone else belief whether that belief is deemed positive or not. It's like some countries that impose the celebration of armed forces during sport events and whenever someone visibly refuse to participate the individual is blamed.
 
dubplate warrior said:
That's obviously not how he's construed it though.

Congratulations, you know lots of religious people. You clearly speak for everyone who practices their faith. Go to the local mosque and preach your message, I'm sure it will go well. Also you are from Ireland, blown my mind.
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And the crowd goes wild, he's hit his hat trick! You said that every single person who adheres to an abrahamic faith is a homophobe, I was just pointing out how utterly brain-dead that statement is. It's not anecdotal either, there were religious politicians and celebrities who promoted the cause, you can check it out if you wish.
 
Mogget said:
Do you not think that leads to a more intolerant society? If people are allowed to believe in bigoted teachings, with no repercussions, those beliefs will remain a part of society and become normalised.
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But what makes you right or gives you the right to condemn them, the problem with tolerance is that you have to be tolerant, the minute you draw lines it breaks.

For the record I would wave a magic wand and make a different, free and accepting world of only I could.
 
bosnian_red said:
Thinking about it... The club could definitely have done far more on this issue. Liverpool have the most famous Muslim footballer to perhaps ever exist... Has he ever worn a rainbow armband or laces? Has there ever been any controversy about him? Think they've just been clever to not highlight something.

This Mazraoui thing wouldn't have been a thing if United weren't thinking of having every player wear a coat (to then lead to it being leaked). It was a risky move to start with (albeit with good intentions) as the second you get a player who doesn't want to openly and actively support it (inevitable given just how much of the world has pretty strong homophobic beliefs), you run into this issue. Just leave it with the captain's armband and make sure your captain is always somebody who is inclusive of all and they can properly represent the club.

Edit: was trying to think of the most popular Muslim footballers. Pogba openly spoke about how a gay footballer coming out in the premier league would be respected and deserve everyone's respect. Fair play to him for actually speaking out in support. Bit easier as he's from France and not a country with backwards laws on the topic, but probably the closest I could find.
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France is backward enough when it comes to these topics and the social context he grew up in is fairly homophobic, as are the very vocal christian political movements.
 
MancunianAngels said:
Again. I'm gonna repeat this fact.

There are currently zero openly gay footballers at the highest levels of English/European football.

Correctly, footballers have felt confident enough in previous years to wave a Palestine flag.

They've felt confident enough to speak about being practiticing Christians, Muslims or Jews.

Gay people aren't currently confident to be themselves. They can't "force their beliefs down someone's throat". They can't live and let live because whatever beliefs are held by a minority have stopped them from doing so.
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I agree that this is a horrendous state of affairs, I agree that something must change, but that is not trampling on some bodies personal religious beliefs
 
Zed 101 said:
But what makes you right or gives you the right to condemn them, the problem with tolerance is that you have to be tolerant, the minute you draw lines it breaks.

For the record I would wave a magic wand and make a different, free and accepting world of only I could.
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When you tolerate the intolerant, is when it breaks.
 
SilentWitness said:
He was blasted by many Muslims because he celebrated Christmas.
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I think this here is the root issue.

There is a difference between promoting inclusivity and celebrating the LGBTQ+ community. Often times, the intended message isn't the perceived or resulting message.

Inclusion is a right, celebration should always remain a choice.
 
Zed 101 said:
I agree that this is a horrendous state of affairs, I agree that something must change, but that is not trampling on some bodies personal religious beliefs
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Honest question, you think wearing the armband is trampling on Islam?
 
Zed 101 said:
I agree that this is a horrendous state of affairs, I agree that something must change, but that is not trampling on some bodies personal religious beliefs
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But hiding behind religion shouldn't be an excuse for not supporting another marginalised group.

Especially when members of said marginalised group are usually among some of the first to get behind anti racism campaigns.
 
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