Where there's no doubt racism amongst black people over how light or dark their shade? Racism has been an issue for thousands of years, even statues in egypt have their noses smashed off so people wouldn't know such amazing creations were the works of black people, it's an issue as old as time itself & needs to keep being worked on tackling. However, I think that in this case instead of saying "hey maybe Antonio has a unique view we can learn from" he really should just be called out for making a ridiculous statement that detracts from both the issue he was being questioned about and detracts from the issue of racism. If people keep attributing everything to racism, it makes it a lot more difficult to actually tackle racism.
Kurt Zouma / 180 hours community service + banned from keeping cats for 5 years
- Thread starter MyOnlySolskjaer
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran are here to talk about a frustrating 2 points dropped at Crystal Palace. They then discuss the regeneration of Old Trafford. Finally, Nik is joined by special guest Michael Statham from the Football Oranje podcast - who gives us a more in depth look at our EL opposition FC Twente, and then runs through the (many) Dutch connections currently at United.
Honestly, whether its racisim or animal abuse, both are vile and people/authorities should come down hard on both of these things.
He didn’t do this though.
He made a very poor attempt at equivocating the issues. I guess his nonsense breeds nonsense responses.
Both are terrible, yet that’s rarely been the argument today.
I personally agree with the bolded, but I also think PoC have an absolute right to question the way race plays a role in any public reaction and disagree that effectively checking for racism in any situation adds nothing of value.
Given the history of systemic racism in our society, I can understand PoC suspecting and correctly identifying racism in most circumtances. So to then see a large group of posters, who are not PoC and have never and will never experience racism, belittle that and try to bully that reaction out of the discussion is, I think, disgusting.
@MackRobinson initially entered this thread to say that the warning another poster got for suggesting that the reaction was racist was unfair. That's not claiming it was racist, it's not offering an excuse for animal abuse or any other rubbish that has been thrown around in this thread, it's a very fair point.
I don't get what your problem is? All I want to know is have you ever had a fight with a swan? .... too much to ask? too difficult to answer? I don't get it
FFS…
1. Antonio wasn’t excusing Zouma - he made a point of saying he doesn’t condone it.
2. Antonio wasn’t saying that Zouma is getting it harsh because he’s black.
3. Antonio was questioning the reaction of the media in relation to how they react to racism (another form of abuse).
1. Antonio wasn’t excusing Zouma - he made a point of saying he doesn’t condone it.
2. Antonio wasn’t saying that Zouma is getting it harsh because he’s black.
3. Antonio was questioning the reaction of the media in relation to how they react to racism (another form of abuse).
Well done to you both, thanks to @The Boy I actually went back and read through what has been said in here. It truly is discouraging as a PoC what seems to draw moderation on this forum.
As an animal lover & PoC I’m so conflicted here because people are conflating points. I hate how race is always dismissed as an issue on here, see the Elanga thread but I don’t think kicking this cat has particularly been about race either but then again it’s so ingrained in society how could it not be.
Zouma’s brother has been suspended by his club on suspicion of his involvement. The issue I’m picking up from others is that they feel this issue is being drawn out in a disingenuous way, perhaps it’s because he’s black, perhaps it is not but suggesting the suggestion is ‘inappropriate’ & immediately shutting down that line of thinking isn’t progressive imo.
There's no perhaps about it, it's absolutely not because he's black and the suggestion is ridiculous. Also, funny to say "It truly is discouraging as a PoC what seems to draw moderation on this forum." as if the forum wasn't in meltdown over the Suarez & John Terry racist incidents. Seriously, get over the fact that not everything needs to have a racial connection. A white woman was literally fired from her job because footage showed her striking a horse recently. What about Mary Bale? Middle aged white women filmed putting a cat in a wheelie bin & there was a lynch mob for her that destroyed her life. There's nothing to even remotely suggest race has played a part in the reaction except for muppets trying to claim it has or may have. The reaction is because this is Britain & the general public find abuse of pets utterly abhorrent.
because he was asked if Zouma should be banned from football and he was comparing it to something where people were banned
nobody has been banned from the PL for war or climate change
it's actually a pretty logical comparison to make under the premise his colleague deserves to lose his career
Bringing racism into this discussion has to be emblematic of modern day discourse.
If WHU had just handled this in house properly and made it clear that the player was under severe censure including time out from the game and rehabilitation, none of this nonsense would have followed. Moyes and the club are responsible for this now.
If WHU had just handled this in house properly and made it clear that the player was under severe censure including time out from the game and rehabilitation, none of this nonsense would have followed. Moyes and the club are responsible for this now.
Has anyone considered, what if the cat was really naughty on the lead up to this incident? Maybe it purposely had a dump in Kurt Zouma's bed or maybe it tore up all of his cigar collection. Why has no one asked these questions? Context people.
Well you win another prize for clueless comment of the day. If you had the remotest of understanding of animals you would know that they do not cinciously do "naughty" things. They act due to instinct, environmental conditions, stress etc.
The concept of " punishing" an animal through physical violence has no context. It is 100% wrong. Every time.
He was fined 250k I think west ham handled it ok to be honest.
He hasn't been convicted of anything. The police and football authorities have done nothing so it's a red herring, isn't it?
Do you honestly think that these are the same people?
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What a bellend
Has anyone considered that maybe the cat wanted to be kicked and may just enjoy being hit? Such a close minded lot we have here.
Calls for him to be sacked are a fecking joke.
Other professionals have lost their job to similar incidents. It might seem over the top, and won't happen to him, but if he was indeed sacked I wouldn't feel bad for him.
They did that a couple days after the event, following a half-arsed apology and subsequent swelling of public antipathy.
People who work in privileged positions should face greater scrutiny than others.
Yes, and he's been fined a fortune, lost sponsorship deals and custody of his pets.
Maybe it wanted to identify as a football, ever thought of that?
Exactly this. This is simply a a tactic like used by politicians. Dont fall for it. Strawman argument tactics. One has nothing to do with the other. The fact he said it doesnt tell you that he has stronger beliefs against racism. It tells you he is downplaying the cat issue and defending his teammate and trying to trick the media and the public into another debate. Its disgusting tactics and should be condemned.
is it awful just because people don't agree with your point of view? Kirkland (white) is the one who brought racism into it lad. Just because you are uncomfortable with the possibility, everyone should "feck off?" childish
why is it the worst thread? Some legitimate questions in there especially around our selective care about animal abuse
A white man (Kirkland) first brought race into it but you are not ready for that conversation
Kirkland first made the comparison to racism and how the FA act faster so Antonio latched onto that and claimed people are calling for far severe punishment compared to racism.
It almost like you are trying to drag humans intelligence and common sense to the same level of a cat's.
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Personally don't get the point Antonio is trying to make. If a footballer was caught on video on Instagram or any other social media performing any kind of act of racism he or she would be equally cancelled and the social media reaction would have been most likely more than the reaction to the cat incident and rightly so. Is he trying to say this wouldn't have happened if the controversy was about race?
Antonio gets a point from me for standing strongly against racism. At the same time he gets a point deduction for making it seem like abusing the cat is normal. "Why care about the cat when we have racism around?". Well firstly they are unrelated. Secondly we can care about two things at once.
I wouldn't worry, It's a really easy point to miss in all the shouting around this, but Antonio clearly says he does not condone what Zouma has done or think it is right, he is just making the point that he has experienced racism in football and others have and is the reaction similar?
Now you may think the reaction would be similar and that's fine, but Antonio also absolutely has the right to question it. That's all the point is, he is not saying supporting the cat is racist or criticizing Zouma for his actions is racist. He is not trying to excuse Zouma's actions, he is raising the point that quite a few PoC have raised in this thread now that racism might not get the same reaction s this from the general public.
As I said it is fair to disagree with this or agree with it, it is a grown up discussion, just one that lots of posters here either can't understand or don't want to understand
Yeah I agree, it doesn't make much sense to me at all. If a footballer was caught on camera racially abusing someone the backlash would have been a lot worse. They'd also be facing a ban from the PL and a criminal investigation.
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To be fair if you had a similar video to the one with cat but with someone racially abusing a person with the person recording such situation laughing i think the outrage would be even bigger.
I seem to recall some match 2 years ago where some guy during the match was imitating a monkey. Twitter managed to identify the guy and it was mental (rightfully so). As I remember correctly he was sacked from his job soon after that incident.
Excuse them for actually doing some due diligence and not just reacting to the court of social media
The man kicked and slapped a cat. There is no doubt whatsoever that he did it, there are no extenuating circumstances and the act itself is objectively despicable. Furthermore, it happened in the UK - where anyone caught mistreating pets is bound to be crucified by both the media and the online community.
Could there be a racist element to the media's coverage and the reaction(s) of Twitter users, etc.? Yes, of course - it would be naive to rule out that some people welcome the chance to crucify Zouma not because they love cats but because he's a black man. And the media? There's every reason to scrutinize their coverage of anything, obviously.
Does it make sense - in this particular thread - to focus on this potential element? Is it always legitimate to do so?
This is what a certain poster said:
Would it be okay to make a comment like that in - say - the Greenwood thread? And - no - that is not whataboutery, the principle is exactly the same.
Could there be a racist element to the media's coverage and the reaction(s) of Twitter users, etc.? Yes, of course - it would be naive to rule out that some people welcome the chance to crucify Zouma not because they love cats but because he's a black man. And the media? There's every reason to scrutinize their coverage of anything, obviously.
Does it make sense - in this particular thread - to focus on this potential element? Is it always legitimate to do so?
This is what a certain poster said:
Would it be okay to make a comment like that in - say - the Greenwood thread? And - no - that is not whataboutery, the principle is exactly the same.
Yes, it is a trainwreck of a thread. It was a thread about animal abuse. The problem which in society is very low covered. But it became a thread about (non existing in this case) racism.
Guy kicks a cat. Lets talk about racism because one white guy mentioned racism in a sentence (which btw, people put totally out of context).
But ok, carry on. I already gave up from this thread.
He is stating that he feels the reaction is over the top. As someone mentioned, a player has also killed someone and no one is calling for them to be jailed or not be able to compete on the field ever again.
In the interest of context, one poster made that argument and from what I can tell, no-one has actually agreed with him. The subsequent discussion in here around racism has been about a) defending his right to have that opinion and b) around the coverage and the online reaction, which you agree is, at the very least, a legitimate talking point.
Literally one poster said that and it was dealt with by the mods - no one else said that, but a few defended his right to say it.
I have no idea of your background etc and have no wish to presume. But there are alot of people in this thread telling PoC when and where they can discuss racism with someone going as far as to telling them to "feck off" out of the thread. You are absolutely right that when the UK media piles in on a PoC we should question it. But it wasn't the focus of this thread until people started getting upset about it being brought up at all.
Do you mean Marcos Alonso? If so that happened 11 years ago in a different country where he was processed by the courts for that crime in that country. What would that have to do with the Zouma case?
Finally.