[NZT-One]

Hopefully it won't be long before we see a first phase of the players below. And then ten Hag will look to play through the thirds imo or else I'm going to be worried.

To exert control in possession in the build up phase you need players who are comfortable playing under pressure. Casemiro isn't that player hence at Real Madrid, he would at times be pushed up with Kroos and Modric dropping deeper to act as the first receivers in the build up phase. And when the ball was progressed forward, Modric and Kroos would take up more advanced roles in midfield with Casemiro the holding midfielder. The EPL is stronger than La Liga right now and it requires players who can evade, resist and shield the ball against teams who defend aggressively from the front. McTominay, Casemiro and to a lesser extent Eriksen are not good in that regard.

So it seems like ten Hag is instructing the team to play a lot more direct than how he wants them to play. Which doesn't play to the strengths of Onana and Amrabat. Amrabat because he's someone who can receive the ball on the half turn against the press and progress the play from a deeper lying role and we aren't playing through the midfield. I personally think that is due to who is playing at CB currently and the lack of ability those players have in confined spaces. Mourinho once said that he himself was very good when it came to passing the ball around but he couldn't pass the well when under pressure. So in that scenario it's better to go direct than cause yourself even bigger problems by asking players to do something that puts them out of their comfort zone.

When we're talking about Kobbie Mainoo, we're talking about potential. A young midfielder with the potential to evade, resist and shield the ball against the opponent's high pressure tactics. And that is potential that McTominay never showed at youth level and Casemiro was never that type of player to begin with. So it's on ten Hag to decide if he feels Mainoo is good enough to contribute in the team and everything points towards ten Hag believing in the ability of Mainoo. He's a coach with a history of selecting young players only if he believes they can contribute towards the collective.

Casemiro obviously has experience and has been a great player in his time. But if ten Hag wants to implement his methods then he needs players in possession in the first phase who can play under pressure. And every single player in the first phase needs to be very good against the opponent's press if we're to exert control in possesion and progress the play effectively.

The quicker I see the team below the better. I think in possesion there's potential here that can develop over the course of the season which can then be improved further in the transfer window.

You control the middle field by having elite players in possession and not just having good midfielders.


-----------‐‐-----------Onana---
Dalot-----Varane-----Martinez-----Shaw
--------------Mainoo----Amrabat---

I would also look forward to something like that. It will seriously put emphasis on Varane physicality though so lets hope, Maguire will still be in good form for the inevitable breaks Varane will need. For me personally, I think, this lineup might be not physical enough for the PL but you are certainly right, the trends are moving towards technical players over physical ones.

Lets hope, Mainoo will be eased in on a regular basis. I think, him flourishing in PL from the get-go like Greenwood would mean we got very "lucky" two times in a row.

 

[Adnan]

I would also look forward to something like that. It will seriously put emphasis on Varane physicality though so lets hope, Maguire will still be in good form for the inevitable breaks Varane will need. For me personally, I think, this lineup might be not physical enough for the PL but you are certainly right, the trends are moving towards technical players over physical ones.

Lets hope, Mainoo will be eased in on a regular basis. I think, him flourishing in PL from the get-go like Greenwood would mean we got very "lucky" two times in a row.

I do agree that we need to raise the level of the team when it comes to the physical and athletic aspects of the team. But I think that can only improve via the transfer window and we have to try and connect the dots with the players we have at our disposal. And unfortunately we haven't had the opportunity to see everyone fit and available yet. And having Martinez and Shaw out for a length of time is a big blow to our build up play.

But I think as far as physicality goes we're not that bad if both Varane and Shaw are available. And Martinez is a proactive defender himself but he doesn't quite have the recovery pace of Shaw or Varane, but his ability on the ball is a big positive for us against the opponent's press. He's someone that can receive the ball under pressure and create space to then progress the ball.

With a Mainoo and Amrabat midfield two, we lack aerial ability against teams who will look to exploit that. Casemiro is someone who is good in that regard but he isn't very good at defending a large space in defensive transition due to a lack of pace and agility. So someone like Varane stepping into midfield when the opponent has the ball in their defensive third has the potential to nullify such a threat. And I'm not writing Casemiro off because we need him and so does the team for this season. But by next season I do expect a midfielder to be bought who has the physical, athletic and technical ability to replace both McTominay and Fred as well as what Casemiro gives us.

I think the team below is what we've got for this season and when this team is available I do expect us to play out from the back more often. Shaw and Varane would defend their respective channels in a back three with Martinez as the central CB. Shaw tucks in and Dalot either provides the overlap or underlap in possession. I've got Dalot providing the underlap in the formation below. I think it's very important to have CBs who have the ability to dominate ground duels. I think it's far more important than having a CB who is strong aerially in a team that wants to play the game high up the pitch.

I haven't put Bruno in the team below because I'm curious to see how we play as a collective with the personnel below.


-----------------------Hojlund------------------------
--Rashford----Mount---Dalot---Antony--
--------------Mainoo-------Amrabat-------------
------Shaw------Martinez------Varane---------
----------------------Onana---------------

 

[AlexUTD]

This is true. But if he actually is suited to them, it could make a case for calling Newcastle a smaller club.

Well they are. Money will change that now probably.

Ok they won the Intertoto cup in 2006,some geordies might call that a massive trophy.

 

[Grande]

Well they are. Money will change that now probably.

Ok they won the Intertoto cup in 2006,some geordies might call that a massive trophy.

Soon they’ll have the Saudi Professional League trophy to eclipse that one.

 

[AlexUTD]

Soon they’ll have the Saudi Professional League trophy to eclipse that one.

True

 

[Rozay]

Didn’t feature for the 21s last night so will likely be with the first team this weekend.

 

[croadyman]

Didn’t feature for the 21s last night so will likely be with the first team this weekend.

Yeah be great if he could make bench

 

[luke511]

Yeah be great if he could make bench

 

[Trequarista10]

-----------------------Hojlund-------------------------------------Rashford----Mount---Dalot---Antony--
--------------Mainoo-------Amrabat-------------
------Shaw------Martinez------Varane---------
----------------------Onana---------------

I like it, quadrupling up on the RW to confuse the opposition.

 

[Adnan]

I like it, quadrupling up on the RW to confuse the opposition.

Fixed.

 

[OrcaFat]

Fixed.

Interesting, as ever, Adnan. So, in this formation, do you see Dalot joining the high press in the Bruno position?

 

[Adnan]

Interesting, as ever, Adnan. So, in this formation, do you see Dalot joining the high press in the Bruno position?

If the aim is to play in a compact high block then in that particular formation posted earlier, Dalot would be involved in the pressing sequence from the front. Unlike Bruno who would be in a higher starting position, Dalot would start deeper in the build up phase in comparison. The clips below demonstrate how Mazraoui not only helped in the build up phase at Ajax to progress the ball but his ability to come into midfield was also invaluable for Ajax because it allowed ten Hag to have multiple players between the lines in the opponent's half, which ten Hag referred to as having multiple #10s. So Tadic, Ziyech and Donny etc would overload the central areas with Mazraoui underlapping the wide player on his side and bypassing both de Jong and Schone in midfield.

So because the team has successfully circumvented the opponent's high press from the back, you have now created a overload in the central areas with space opening up out wide and even centrally due to Mazraoui inverting into midfield and providing the underlap threat. Which in-turn opens up space for both Antony and Tagliafico with de Jong stepping into a RCB role in a high line. That's how you pin the opponent in their half and getting multiple players between the lines is absolutely crucial towards establishing control in the game. So it's important to have the correct profile of players for that method to function.

So like it's mentioned below, the objective is to move the opponent and not the ball. The ball will move by default but unhinging the opponent's out of possession structure is going to be crucial in establishing control in the game.

And as you can see, Mazraoui cuts in-field in the clips below where he demonstrates his ability in build up where he helps progress the ball forward and also from a central area provide the underlap threat along with a goal threat.





I think Dalot has ability on the ball, and I'm hopeful he can provide something similar.

 

[Eric_the_Red99]

It’s crazy that this thread on Mainoo’s 2023/24 performances has already got to 27 pages despite the fact that Mainoo hasn’t yet had a single appearance in 2023/24 (and only 3 appearances ever). Must be some sort of record for the Caf.

 

[Adnan]

It’s crazy that this thread on Mainoo’s 2023/24 performances has already got to 27 pages despite the fact that Mainoo hasn’t yet had a single appearance in 2023/24 (and only 3 appearances ever). Must be some sort of record for the Caf.

It depends on how you look at it. Mainoo is potential but that potential he possesses is exactly what we're missing in midfield. A player who receives the ball on the half turn and can evade/resist the opponent's press. We don't have many of those players and the current head coach inherited a midfield two of McTominay and Fred who are both nowhere near good enough to be first phase midfielders under a coach who wants to play out from the back.

So rather than carrying on with flogging a dead horse over and over again, it's refreshing to see that ten Hag believes in the ability of a young player who does fit the profile of midfielder that is required in a team that wants to play out from the back. He's still very young and will have his ups and downs but giving a chance to a player with his ability is a step in the right direction imo. And people should be excited about his potential no matter what happens.

 

[STYLOISRED]

I think Dalot has ability on the ball, and I'm hopeful he can provide something similar.

What is incredibly apparent watching this video is how static we are a a team. In that entire footage there is not a single player standing but when you watch man utd our players want the ball coming to them before they move. It's almost as if it's not the same manager.

 

[ShamrockD]

Hopefully it won't be long before we see a first phase of the players below. And then ten Hag will look to play through the thirds imo or else I'm going to be worried.

To exert control in possession in the build up phase you need players who are comfortable playing under pressure. Casemiro isn't that player hence at Real Madrid, he would at times be pushed up with Kroos and Modric dropping deeper to act as the first receivers in the build up phase. And when the ball was progressed forward, Modric and Kroos would take up more advanced roles in midfield with Casemiro the holding midfielder. The EPL is stronger than La Liga right now and it requires players who can evade, resist and shield the ball against teams who defend aggressively from the front. McTominay, Casemiro and to a lesser extent Eriksen are not good in that regard.

So it seems like ten Hag is instructing the team to play a lot more direct than how he wants them to play. Which doesn't play to the strengths of Onana and Amrabat. Amrabat because he's someone who can receive the ball on the half turn against the press and progress the play from a deeper lying role and we aren't playing through the midfield. I personally think that is due to who is playing at CB currently and the lack of ability those players have in confined spaces. Mourinho once said that he himself was very good when it came to passing the ball around but he couldn't pass the well when under pressure. So in that scenario it's better to go direct than cause yourself even bigger problems by asking players to do something that puts them out of their comfort zone.

When we're talking about Kobbie Mainoo, we're talking about potential. A young midfielder with the potential to evade, resist and shield the ball against the opponent's high pressure tactics. And that is potential that McTominay never showed at youth level and Casemiro was never that type of player to begin with. So it's on ten Hag to decide if he feels Mainoo is good enough to contribute in the team and everything points towards ten Hag believing in the ability of Mainoo. He's a coach with a history of selecting young players only if he believes they can contribute towards the collective.

Casemiro obviously has experience and has been a great player in his time. But if ten Hag wants to implement his methods then he needs players in possession in the first phase who can play under pressure. And every single player in the first phase needs to be very good against the opponent's press if we're to exert control in possesion and progress the play effectively.

The quicker I see the team below the better. I think in possesion there's potential here that can develop over the course of the season which can then be improved further in the transfer window.

You control the middle field by having elite players in possession and not just having good midfielders.


-----------‐‐-----------Onana---
Dalot-----Varane-----Martinez-----Shaw
--------------Mainoo----Amrabat---

There are two explanations.

a) Either Ten Hag plans to do something like you have described above and will take time to have the right profiles to achieve that. And this inchorent direct thing that we are seeing right now is because of injuries and that results have been prioritzed.

b) Or he has tried something completely different and direct in United due to the presence of Bruno and Rashford who do not seem capable of being a part of a team who can follow possession and press resistance principles.

The fact that Bruno has been made captain and the bizzare signing of Casemiro instead of De Jong (completely different profiles) makes me nervous that we are seeing (b).

 

[NZT-One]

What is incredibly apparent watching this video is how static we are a a team. In that entire footage there is not a single player standing but when you watch man utd our players want the ball coming to them before they move. It's almost as if it's not the same manager.

Yeah good point. This is an issue that is going on for soo long and I expected a good tactical manager to sort it out. Might have been a little too harsh on Ole on that point seeing that ETH isn't really able to adress that issue. That being said, I think, along with the movement has always been the lack of urgency. And I think, to a degree and be it only in flashes, that is visible from time to time. I really think, some of our players just aren't very high in terms of football IQ. Plus I guess our ultra direct approach doesn't really open many spaces to move in other than "in behind".

 

[Adnan]

There are two explanations.

a) Either Ten Hag plans to do something like you have described above and will take time to have the right profiles to achieve that. And this inchorent direct thing that we are seeing right now is because of injuries and that results have been prioritzed.

b) Or he has tried something completely different and direct in United due to the presence of Bruno and Rashford who do not seem capable of being a part of a team who can follow possession and press resistance principles.

The fact that Bruno has been made captain and the bizzare signing of Casemiro instead of De Jong (completely different profiles) makes me nervous that we are seeing (b).

Bruno and Rashford are not a hindrance for ten Hag as far as playing out from the back is concerned. We can criticise both players for things they do in the final third but the bigger problem is in the defensive third where ten Hag has decided that he's going to go direct. And the tweet below from the press conference earlier does suggest that he knows there's a problem in possession but he won't go into details about what the actual problem is. So going direct or playing in transition does suit certain players in the final third but why we're going direct and playing in transition is the question that needs addressing imo.



After losing de Jong, de Ligt and Schone at Ajax, ten Hag lost three brilliant players in the build up phase and Ajax bought a midfielder in Alvarez who wasn't technically very good in possession. So ten Hag after losing 3 fantastic players in possession build up, still attempted to play through the midfield, and what allowed him to play through the midfield was his GK, CBs and fullbacks. And those players were better on the ball than the Ajax midfielders and hence with Mazraoui and Blind tucking in with support from Pasveer/Onana, Martinez and Timber, Ajax had no problem progressing play. And that back five which includes the GK, carried their midfielders in the build up phase post de Jong and Schone. People were paying too much attention to Martinez and Timber's height as a CB pairing but their ability on the ball under pressure was elite. And because they were elite on the ball and could evade and resist the press along with Blind and Mazraoui, they controlled games.

So imo the biggest problem for ten Hag is the CBs who are currently playing. Because the first port of call for a GK is the CBs and having CBs who have the ability to receive passes under pressure is absolutely imperative. So the injuries to both Shaw and Martinez is a big blow, because both players have the technical qualities in possession to progress the ball. The clip below is a passage of play from ten Hag's first Ajax team against Juventus, and you can clearly see how the ball is being progressed from the back and how the players are not only agile in body but also agile in mind.



And like I've said previously, once he has everyone fit and available again then I do expect to see us play out from the back more often.

This is a 4231 formation with Dalot and Shaw either tucking in vertically (Dalot) and horizontally with Shaw to form a back 3.


---------------------Hojlund------------------------
--Rashford----Mount---Dalot---Antony--
--------------Mainoo-------Amrabat-------------
------Shaw------Martinez------Varane---------
----------------------Onana---------------

 

[Matt851]

Bruno and Rashford are not a hindrance for ten Hag as far as playing out from the back is concerned. We can criticise both players for things they do in the final third but the bigger problem is in the defensive third where ten Hag has decided that he's going to go direct. And the tweet below from the press conference earlier does suggest that he knows there's a problem in possession but he won't go into details about what the actual problem is. So going direct or playing in transition does suit certain players in the final third but why we're going direct and playing in transition is the question that needs addressing imo.



After losing de Jong, de Ligt and Schone at Ajax, ten Hag lost three brilliant players in the build up phase and Ajax bought a midfielder in Alvarez who wasn't technically very good in possession. So ten Hag after losing 3 fantastic players in possession build up, still attempted to play through the midfield, and what allowed him to play through the midfield was his GK, CBs and fullbacks. And those players were better on the ball than the Ajax midfielders and hence with Mazraoui and Blind tucking in with support from Pasveer/Onana, Martinez and Timber, Ajax had no problem progressing play. And that back five which includes the GK, carried their midfielders in the build up phase post de Jong and Schone. People were paying too much attention to Martinez and Timber's height as a CB pairing but their ability on the ball under pressure was elite. And because they were elite on the ball and could evade and resist the press along with Blind and Mazraoui, they controlled games.

So imo the biggest problem for ten Hag is the CBs who are currently playing. Because the first port of call for a GK is the CBs and having CBs who have the ability to receive passes under pressure is absolutely imperative. So the injuries to both Shaw and Martinez is a big blow, because both players have the technical qualities in possession to progress the ball. The clip below is a passage of play from ten Hag's first Ajax team against Juventus, and you can clearly see how the ball is being progressed from the back and how the players are not only agile in body but also agile in mind.



And like I've said previously, once he has everyone fit and available again then I do expect to see us play out from the back more often.

This is a 4231 formation with Dalot and Shaw either tucking in vertically (Dalot) and horizontally with Shaw to form a back 3.


---------------------Hojlund------------------------
--Rashford----Mount---Dalot---Antony--
--------------Mainoo-------Amrabat-------------
------Shaw------Martinez------Varane---------
----------------------Onana---------------

But varane is pretty rubbish in possession so that leaves martinez who may well not be fit for some time. Are we really supposed to believe him returning will suddenly unlock some coherent football

 

[OrcaFat]

If the aim is to play in a compact high block then in that particular formation posted earlier, Dalot would be involved in the pressing sequence from the front. Unlike Bruno who would be in a higher starting position, Dalot would start deeper in the build up phase in comparison. The clips below demonstrate how Mazraoui not only helped in the build up phase at Ajax to progress the ball but his ability to come into midfield was also invaluable for Ajax because it allowed ten Hag to have multiple players between the lines in the opponent's half, which ten Hag referred to as having multiple #10s. So Tadic, Ziyech and Donny etc would overload the central areas with Mazraoui underlapping the wide player on his side and bypassing both de Jong and Schone in midfield.

So because the team has successfully circumvented the opponent's high press from the back, you have now created a overload in the central areas with space opening up out wide and even centrally due to Mazraoui inverting into midfield and providing the underlap threat. Which in-turn opens up space for both Antony and Tagliafico with de Jong stepping into a RCB role in a high line. That's how you pin the opponent in their half and getting multiple players between the lines is absolutely crucial towards establishing control in the game. So it's important to have the correct profile of players for that method to function.

So like it's mentioned below, the objective is to move the opponent and not the ball. The ball will move by default but unhinging the opponent's out of possession structure is going to be crucial in establishing control in the game.

And as you can see, Mazraoui cuts in-field in the clips below where he demonstrates his ability in build up where he helps progress the ball forward and also from a central area provide the underlap threat along with a goal threat.





I think Dalot has ability on the ball, and I'm hopeful he can provide something similar.

Very interesting. If I understand correctly, Dalot would start in (or drop back into) a conventional RB position when Onana has ball at feet and would engage in the build up by moving into midfield into (roughly) a Bruno area…?

And when the oppo keeper / CBs have it, Dalot steps up and is pressing in the oppo’s CB / no6 area (presumably he drops back into LB area if the oppos beat our press).

When Dalot moves into advanced midfield areas, Casemiro or Amrabat drops into RB / RCB and Varane and Martinez shift across, with Martinez stepping forward into midfield at times, I assume.

With our current personnel, you mentioned having the right profiles. I suppose if everyone is fit, we have a chance of this starting to function okay but I gather you feel no6 is actually the main problem because we don’t have a guy with sufficient technical AND physical attributes to deliver what’s required in that system? Any other obvious square pegs that need to be replaced, in your view?

 

[didz]

Bruno and Rashford are not a hindrance for ten Hag as far as playing out from the back is concerned. We can criticise both players for things they do in the final third but the bigger problem is in the defensive third where ten Hag has decided that he's going to go direct. And the tweet below from the press conference earlier does suggest that he knows there's a problem in possession but he won't go into details about what the actual problem is. So going direct or playing in transition does suit certain players in the final third but why we're going direct and playing in transition is the question that needs addressing imo.



After losing de Jong, de Ligt and Schone at Ajax, ten Hag lost three brilliant players in the build up phase and Ajax bought a midfielder in Alvarez who wasn't technically very good in possession. So ten Hag after losing 3 fantastic players in possession build up, still attempted to play through the midfield, and what allowed him to play through the midfield was his GK, CBs and fullbacks. And those players were better on the ball than the Ajax midfielders and hence with Mazraoui and Blind tucking in with support from Pasveer/Onana, Martinez and Timber, Ajax had no problem progressing play. And that back five which includes the GK, carried their midfielders in the build up phase post de Jong and Schone. People were paying too much attention to Martinez and Timber's height as a CB pairing but their ability on the ball under pressure was elite. And because they were elite on the ball and could evade and resist the press along with Blind and Mazraoui, they controlled games.

So imo the biggest problem for ten Hag is the CBs who are currently playing. Because the first port of call for a GK is the CBs and having CBs who have the ability to receive passes under pressure is absolutely imperative. So the injuries to both Shaw and Martinez is a big blow, because both players have the technical qualities in possession to progress the ball. The clip below is a passage of play from ten Hag's first Ajax team against Juventus, and you can clearly see how the ball is being progressed from the back and how the players are not only agile in body but also agile in mind.



And like I've said previously, once he has everyone fit and available again then I do expect to see us play out from the back more often.

This is a 4231 formation with Dalot and Shaw either tucking in vertically (Dalot) and horizontally with Shaw to form a back 3.


---------------------Hojlund------------------------
--Rashford----Mount---Dalot---Antony--
--------------Mainoo-------Amrabat-------------
------Shaw------Martinez------Varane---------
----------------------Onana---------------

I've not much confidence in Dalot in that role. Mazraoui was outrageously good at pushing into those central positions at Ajax and I don't think there's a similar profile of player in our squad.

We seem to have a pretty longstanding interest in Jeremie Frimpong and, if we do end up with him, he'd be quite a threat on the underlap, or alternatively providing width with an auxiliary wide player (Bruno/Mount) supporting the midfield - a bit like the Gavi+Balde left flank Xavi operates with at Barcelona.

As for Mainoo, I think it's probable that his integration into the team will be stalled by injuries in the backline moreso than the one he sustained himself. It would be a pretty difficult position for him to be starting out given our current options.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

In the squad today.

 

[Jacob]

In the squad today.

Finally!

Now get Shaw back as well.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

Finally!

Now get Shaw back as well.

Have high hopes for Mainoo.

Albiet only pre-season, I felt he was our best player, and it wouldn't have surprised me if he started our first game of the season against Wolves. Unfortunately, he sustained an injury, but now he's back, he'll hopefully bring to our midfield what we all witnessed during pre-season.

 

[FrankDrebin]

 

[croadyman]

Finally!

Now get Shaw back as well.

Reckon he returns maybe after international break against Everton,could do with him available for trip to Galatasaray but still looks a big ask

 

[Adnan]

But varane is pretty rubbish in possession so that leaves martinez who may well not be fit for some time. Are we really supposed to believe him returning will suddenly unlock some coherent football

Varane isn't rubbish in possession. He's not elite on the ball but his ability on the ball isn't as bad as it's being made out. He's very comfortable on either foot and his out of possession game is something we need.



Martinez returning on his own won't improve our build up and I never said that was the case. What I said was that we as a team need to be elite in possesion in the first phase. And the first phase consists of the GK, CBs, fullbacks and the deeper lying midfielders.

 

[Adnan]

I've not much confidence in Dalot in that role. Mazraoui was outrageously good at pushing into those central positions at Ajax and I don't think there's a similar profile of player in our squad.

We seem to have a pretty longstanding interest in Jeremie Frimpong and, if we do end up with him, he'd be quite a threat on the underlap, or alternatively providing width with an auxiliary wide player (Bruno/Mount) supporting the midfield - a bit like the Gavi+Balde left flank Xavi operates with at Barcelona.

As for Mainoo, I think it's probable that his integration into the team will be stalled by injuries in the backline moreso than the one he sustained himself. It would be a pretty difficult position for him to be starting out given our current options.

Dalot is the only RB we have who could possibly come close to providing a inverted threat going forward. I understand your concerns but I feel against the so called lesser teams, who we have struggled against. He should be able to provide a good option in possession as long as we have a capable first phase in possession. And once everyone is fit, then we should see us playing out of the back more effectively, especially against the lesser teams.

I haven't watched Frimpong a lot and don't really have a opinion on him as yet. But he does look to have great acceleration going forward.

I think the time for Mainoo is now. And I think we will see him get opportunities in the team because ten Hag quite obviously rates him and he mentioned earlier about Mainoo being brave on the ball. And being brave on the ball isn't a trait many of our players at the back have with the exception of Onana. Evading/resisting pressure is a long standing problem for many players in our team.

 

[Adnan]

Very interesting. If I understand correctly, Dalot would start in (or drop back into) a conventional RB position when Onana has ball at feet and would engage in the build up by moving into midfield into (roughly) a Bruno area…?

And when the oppo keeper / CBs have it, Dalot steps up and is pressing in the oppo’s CB / no6 area (presumably he drops back into LB area if the oppos beat our press).

When Dalot moves into advanced midfield areas, Casemiro or Amrabat drops into RB / RCB and Varane and Martinez shift across, with Martinez stepping forward into midfield at times, I assume.

With our current personnel, you mentioned having the right profiles. I suppose if everyone is fit, we have a chance of this starting to function okay but I gather you feel no6 is actually the main problem because we don’t have a guy with sufficient technical AND physical attributes to deliver what’s required in that system? Any other obvious square pegs that need to be replaced, in your view?

You're correct, Dalot would start in a conventional position in the build up phase and then move forward into midfield with the ball. Shaw would then tuck in and form a back 3 or one of the midfielders would drop into defense to fill in at CB to form a 3 man back-line. That would allow Shaw to get forward aswell from left back. And Dalot would be occupying similar areas to what Bruno would in a advanced role but Bruno's role will be taken up by Mount. And I think both Mount and Dalot would potentially raise the level of our press because as we saw again earlier, Bruno doesn't have the athleticism and was comfortably bypassed by the City players. Previously we had Pogba who divided opinion but his ability to carry the ball made a difference against the lesser teams because our inability to play out from the back has been a long standing problem. And because Pogba could carry and progress the ball, it alleviated some problems. And if we got to a level where our build up from the back was at a high level, then Martinez stepping into midfield could even be a option but we're not at that level yet.

The pressing depends on how we want to press. So if we want to press man to man, then Dalot is assigned a player to press out of possession and that could be the left sided CB on the opponent's team. Or we could implement a ball oriented press where we look to shepherd the opponent's build up towards a weak player on their team which for the discussions sake is the opponent's LB, before trapping him and winning the ball back with the RW, CF and Dalot converging on him in a wolf pack style attack.

And I think the biggest problem would be if the press is bypassed or if we lose possession because it would open up a opportunity for the opposition to transition with speed. And all the players who were actively involved in the press would be out of the game and either the counter press or containing the opponent's transition in a large space would then be the option for players who are further back near the half way line. And those players are referred to as being in rest defence and they would then need to control the situation out of possession in a large space. And our rest defense requires upgrades.


What we need to do is to create a team that can play out from the back, press high and control defensive transitions out of possession. We need players who have the ability to receive passes under pressure in the build up phase and also have the physical and athletic capabilities to control the game out of possession. So yes we need a deeper lying midfielder who can evade and resist the press but that also applies to our CBs who should be capable against the opponent's press in possession but also have the physical and athletic ability to control the game in a large space.

And as bad as things look right now, things could change very quickly. Because if we beefed up our first phase by replacing Maguire, Lindelof and sign a midfielder or two, who fit the criteria above. Then I'm confident we'll see a very different team.

 

[AdNani]

Be interesting to see whether he gets a chance, he’s probably the most comfortable midfielder we have receiving deep and operating in tight spaces.

Martinez, Shaw and Him and our first phase build up improves drastically In my opinion

 

[OrcaFat]

You're correct, Dalot would start in a conventional position in the build up phase and then move forward into midfield with the ball. Shaw would then tuck in and form a back 3 or one of the midfielders would drop into defense to fill in at CB to form a 3 man back-line. That would allow Shaw to get forward aswell from left back. And Dalot would be occupying similar areas to what Bruno would in a advanced role but Bruno's role will be taken up by Mount. And I think both Mount and Dalot would potentially raise the level of our press because as we saw again earlier, Bruno doesn't have the athleticism and was comfortably bypassed by the City players. Previously we had Pogba who divided opinion but his ability to carry the ball made a difference against the lesser teams because our inability to play out from the back has been a long standing problem. And because Pogba could carry and progress the ball, it alleviated some problems. And if we got to a level where our build up from the back was at a high level, then Martinez stepping into midfield could even be a option but we're not at that level yet.

The pressing depends on how we want to press. So if we want to press man to man, then Dalot is assigned a player to press out of possession and that could be the left sided CB on the opponent's team. Or we could implement a ball oriented press where we look to shepherd the opponent's build up towards a weak player on their team which for the discussions sake is the opponent's LB, before trapping him and winning the ball back with the RW, CF and Dalot converging on him in a wolf pack style attack.

And I think the biggest problem would be if the press is bypassed or if we lose possession because it would open up a opportunity for the opposition to transition with speed. And all the players who were actively involved in the press would be out of the game and either the counter press or containing the opponent's transition in a large space would then be the option for players who are further back near the half way line. And those players are referred to as being in rest defence and they would then need to control the situation out of possession in a large space. And our rest defense requires upgrades.


What we need to do is to create a team that can play out from the back, press high and control defensive transitions out of possession. We need players who have the ability to receive passes under pressure in the build up phase and also have the physical and athletic capabilities to control the game out of possession. So yes we need a deeper lying midfielder who can evade and resist the press but that also applies to our CBs who should be capable against the opponent's press in possession but also have the physical and athletic ability to control the game in a large space.

And as bad as things look right now, things could change very quickly. Because if we beefed up our first phase by replacing Maguire, Lindelof and sign a midfielder or two, who fit the criteria above. Then I'm confident we'll see a very different team.

Again, that’s a very helpful post. Very insightful. I’ve been looking at the system as being two high no8s ahead of a no6 with the idea that the full backs tuck in (or CBs step out) to help the no6.

 

[Remember the geese]

Would be interested to see just how much worse a Mainoo, Gore, Hannibal midfield would be compared to the dross we have the privilege of watching on a weekly basis.

 

[AltiUn]

Would be interested to see just how much worse a Mainoo, Gore, Hannibal midfield would be compared to the dross we have the privilege of watching on a weekly basis.

Those 3 are actual midfielders, not 10s or DMs shoehorned in as CMs so I think their inclusion would improve our midfield cohesion dramatically.

 

[Red the Bear]

Has to play, we're on the precipice another disasterous season so ten hag might as well show some balls and play this young fellas, at worst we give some of our prospects much needed playing time and at best they turn our season around.
Not much to lose honestly.

 

[Remember the geese]

Those 3 are actual midfielders, not 10s or DMs shoehorned in as CMs so I think their inclusion would improve our midfield cohesion dramatically.

Yeah, that's what I like about it. Nobody masquerading as something they are not. It creates a nice base to start from, then moving forward we can draw conclusions and make adaptations in order to find the finished product. Long term, I'd like to see Mainoo in more of a De Jong role and see him partnered with a younger version of Casemiro basically. Hopefully the club can find that player.

 

[Baxquux]

Would be interested to see just how much worse a Mainoo, Gore, Hannibal midfield would be compared to the dross we have the privilege of watching on a weekly basis.

Honestly, I'd love to see it. I'd take being consigned to an Europa League place right now ( tbf, bargaining position isn't that strong) just to see that as the 3 in tandem for a solid run of games and alternate Bruno/Eriksen/Mount for the 10 in front of them with split strikers. It would give us solidity (3+1) in midfield and technical quality, whilst also having at least one (maybe all three) who can drive with the ball when needs be.

 

[Bwuk]

Our midfield options other than Casemiro are howling.

Give him and Hannibal a chance.

 

[Remember the geese]

Honestly, I'd love to see it. I'd take being consigned to an Europa League place right now ( tbf, bargaining position isn't that strong) just to see that as the 3 in tandem for a solid run of games and alternate Bruno/Eriksen/Mount for the 10 in front of them with split strikers. It would give us solidity (3+1) in midfield and technical quality, whilst also having at least one (maybe all three) who can drive with the ball when needs be.

Clearly we are getting nowhere with our current options, so why not try something different? Even if it is only to breathe a bit of life into the football club. Who knows, maybe one of them can really flourish. Perhaps another can prove himself worthy of being a reliable squad player for years to come.

There's a belief that you shouldn't play a young player in a side that is struggling. I don't agree with the notion because not everyone has that luxury. I'm sure there are plenty of players throughout history who went on to thrive despite coming through at a club in less than 'ideal' circumstances.

 

[jesperjaap]

I do agree that we need to raise the level of the team when it comes to the physical and athletic aspects of the team. But I think that can only improve via the transfer window and we have to try and connect the dots with the players we have at our disposal. And unfortunately we haven't had the opportunity to see everyone fit and available yet. And having Martinez and Shaw out for a length of time is a big blow to our build up play.

But I think as far as physicality goes we're not that bad if both Varane and Shaw are available. And Martinez is a proactive defender himself but he doesn't quite have the recovery pace of Shaw or Varane, but his ability on the ball is a big positive for us against the opponent's press. He's someone that can receive the ball under pressure and create space to then progress the ball.

With a Mainoo and Amrabat midfield two, we lack aerial ability against teams who will look to exploit that. Casemiro is someone who is good in that regard but he isn't very good at defending a large space in defensive transition due to a lack of pace and agility. So someone like Varane stepping into midfield when the opponent has the ball in their defensive third has the potential to nullify such a threat. And I'm not writing Casemiro off because we need him and so does the team for this season. But by next season I do expect a midfielder to be bought who has the physical, athletic and technical ability to replace both McTominay and Fred as well as what Casemiro gives us.

I think the team below is what we've got for this season and when this team is available I do expect us to play out from the back more often. Shaw and Varane would defend their respective channels in a back three with Martinez as the central CB. Shaw tucks in and Dalot either provides the overlap or underlap in possession. I've got Dalot providing the underlap in the formation below. I think it's very important to have CBs who have the ability to dominate ground duels. I think it's far more important than having a CB who is strong aerially in a team that wants to play the game high up the pitch.

I haven't put Bruno in the team below because I'm curious to see how we play as a collective with the personnel below.


-----------------------Hojlund------------------------
--Rashford----Mount---Dalot---Antony--
--------------Mainoo-------Amrabat-------------
------Shaw------Martinez------Varane---------
----------------------Onana---------------

You write a lot of good posts, but personally, this really isnt one of them....what it does show as yo allude to is what n awful transfer window we have had and how rgently we need another one, that side is dreadful

 

[Adnan]

You write a lot of good posts, but personally, this really isnt one of them....what it does show as yo allude to is what n awful transfer window we have had and how rgently we need another one, that side is dreadful

Thanks for the kind words.

There's only so much problems one can fix in one transfer window. First one must attempt to understand what the problems are. And like I've mentioned countless times, this team is no where near being good enough to play proactive football because it has for years struggled to play out from the back. And because the team can't play out from the back, it can't effectively press from the front. Hence sustaining pressure is a big problem. Heads of recruitment can't change that in one transfer window, especially under the Glazer ownership.

So the team that I presented from the post you quoted, has the potential to develop into the team that I'm talking about. It would need some new additions but with Shaw, Martinez and Mainoo coming back into the team, it gives ten Hag the tools to develop the team further.