Klopp Confirmed Liverpool Manager

[Crossie]

And what happened to all three clubs after their ascend to the top? Where did they finish the next seasons? How did they do in the CL? And what happened to Dortmund after Klopp had taken them upstairs? That, my friend, is the difference.

Only Schaaf was able to keep Bremen stably in the top 3 for a while, yet they where still lightyears away from the team Klopp has built in Dortmund.

Schaaf was able to get a lot out of certain players, and he and Allofs had a good series of transfers including Diego, Micoud or Özil. Unfortunately, Werder built up a solid debt while striving for staying competitive, and Dortmund was able to reduce the debt.

 

[Alex99]

At least they are going for Klopp and not Guardiola, who's never been able to motivate a team for longer than 3 seasons. What an absolute tosser. At least Klopp managed a measly 7 years.

Bonkers. The post looks like it's based on looking at Bundesliga end results for 10 minutes without much knowledge about how the success was achieved, how the other teams where doing, how much money was spent and in what states the other clubs where left behind by their managers (Wolfsburg, Bremen).

I never mentioned Guardiola. He's another who I think is good but massively overhyped. Same goes for Mourinho.

And what happened to all three clubs after their ascend to the top? What happened to Dortmund after Klopp had taken them upstairs? That, my friend, is the difference.

Eh? Wolfsburg and Stuttgart plummeted pretty quickly, I'll give you that, but even then Stuttgart came 3rd two seasons after winning it. Werder Bremen won it then finished either 2nd or 3rd in each of the following four seasons. Klopp won it twice with Dortmund, finished in a distant second two seasons following that, then found himself fighting his way up from the foot of the table during the second half of the season after that.

I'm not saying that what Klopp did at Dortmund wasn't good, because it was. I just fail to understand why he is constantly singled out for praise for doing something not too dissimilar to what other managers have done before and since.

There's a narrative surrounding Klopp that makes it seem as if him being manager makes a football club rise from the ashes like a phoenix. It fits with Liverpool and their romantic, nostalgic love of what they were and what they want to be again, but it's not a particularly accurate representation of what actually happened.

@Alex99
Let's agree to diasagree on almost anything then. It's telling that you don't even acknowledge the particular circumstances of Wolfsburg's title win, pinpoint it only on one single aspect that suits your opinion, also ignoring that they had burnt a three-digit million of bucks for years before and even fought relegation, totally ignore their lack of sustained success in years subsequent to their title but still put them in the same bucket as Dortmund's back to back titles, 2 runners up, 2 cup finals, 1 CL final; it indicates that you're not interested in the whole picture but cherry-pick and take things totally out of context in an effort to prove your point. Continuing discussions on that basis is pointless.

Alright, we'll write off Wolfsburg. What about Stuttgart appearing from nowhere, or Werder Bremen coming from nowhere and sustaining decent finishes for a number of seasons afterwards?

I've not said he's not good, I'm saying he's massively overhyped when you consider what he's actually achieved, and that the people worrying about his appointment or celebrating it as a sudden turn in Liverpool's fortunes should probably take a step back and wait and see how he does first. He's had two seasons of success, and two second placed finishes which saw his side finish an accumulative 44 points behind the team that won the league ahead of them.

Personally, I'm not particularly worried. I don't think Liverpool have the playing staff available at present to get near a title challenge, and I think his and their pulling power are not quite what people think they are. I also think he'll have trouble successfully implementing the pressing style he used at Dortmund, and it remains to be seen if he can come up with something else.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

This is depressing. And whats even more depressing is that if they had signed LVG before us I wouldn't have given a feck.

 

[Brown Toothpick]

I never mentioned Guardiola. He's another who I think is good but massively overhyped. Same goes for Mourinho.

Who isn't overhyped then?

 

[Pexbo]

I never mentioned Guardiola. He's another who I think is good but massively overhyped. Same goes for Mourinho.

It's all those sodding trophies they win that needlessly builds that hype. Daft really.

 

[Sandikan]

seems odd to call Mourinho overhyped, bearing in mind he's won wherever he's gone.

Yes he's had sh!tloads of money at most, but who goes into a club and wins the league on a shoestring these days?

Guardiola has had the ridiculous fortune of having Barcelona's legendary crop of players, and then waltzing into an already phenomenal Bayern team!
Not to mention being in leagues where bear a real freak Atletico season recently it's a two horse race, and a one horse in Germany!

Come to England, and his skills would really make or break,

 

[Brown Toothpick]

seems odd to call Mourinho overhyped, bearing in mind he's won wherever he's gone.

Yes he's had sh!tloads of money at most, but who goes into a club and wins the league on a shoestring these days?

Guardiola has had the ridiculous fortune of having Barcelona's legendary crop of players, and then waltzing into an already phenomenal Bayern team!
Not to mention being in leagues where bear a real freak Atletico season recently it's a two horse race, and a one horse in Germany!

Come to England, and his skills would really make or break,

Not the appropriate thread to discuss this. But yeah, thats a load of BS.

 

[Sandikan]

Not the appropriate thread to discuss this. But yeah, thats a load of BS.

the Mourino being called overhyped part? (which I disagree with)

or the rest?

 

[Piratesoup]

I never mentioned Guardiola.

That wasn't pointed towards Guardiola, but towards the strange phrasing in your post regarding Klopp stepping down at Mainz and Dortmund.
"Klopp had seven full seasons at Mainz, then quit when things didn't carry on as he wanted them to. He then had seven seasons at Dortmund, then quit when things didn't carry on as he wanted them to."

You make it sound as if Klopp staying with two clubs for 7 fecking years each, with 11 out of those 14 years being very succesful, before deciding on his own that he's not the right guy anymore is a sign of him not being a great manager. Which is nonsense. Being able to build a team and keeping it stable for 6 years is in itself a great achievement, especially if the manager in question didn't do it from a starting position of power, but relative weakness.

 

[PickledRed]

Personally, I'm not particularly worried. I don't think Liverpool have the playing staff available at present to get near a title challenge

That was a common line in 2012 when Rodgers arrived and then 2013/14 happened.

Two things to consider:

1. Klopp has a track record of raising the level of unfashionable players so it is possibly folly to suggest Liverpool can't improve under his creative and effective coaching.

2. Like at all clubs, the 'present' playing staff is an extremely temporary concept. Just look at how swiftly United's 2013 champions disappeared as a collective. In light of this, offering yourself solace because current players may appear substandard eliminates the reality that new managers reshape squads and top club managers (which Klopp is unanimously viewed as being) is capable of squad building effectively.

Now neither of these two points is a guarantee to success but it's a more plausible reality than basing a train of thought on a series of half-hearted negatives that smack of cherry-picked confirmation bias.

 

[Alex99]

That wasn't pointed towards Guardiola, but towards the strange phrasing in your post regarding Klopp stepping down at Mainz and Dortmund.
"Klopp had seven full seasons at Mainz, then quit when things didn't carry on as he wanted them to. He then had seven seasons at Dortmund, then quit when things didn't carry on as he wanted them to."

You make it sound as if Klopp staying with two clubs for 7 fecking years each, with 11 out of those 14 years being very succesful, before deciding on his own that he's not the right guy anymore is a sign of him not being a great manager. Which is nonsense. Being able to build a team and keeping it stable for 6 years is in itself a great achievement, especially if the manager in question didn't do it from a starting position of power, but relative weakness.

You have a very broad definition of successful

 

[Piratesoup]

You have a very broad definition of successful

Yeah, feck me. Getting a club to first flight for the first time in its history and keeping them there for some years with the entire country expecting them to go down back immediately, then taking a shit, debt-ridden Dortmund team and taking them to two Bundesliga titles, one double and the CL final, turning them into one of the best clubs in Europe again in the process. Not successful at all, that chap.

I wonder what your definition of successful is. If it is "Ferguson at United", I'm afraid you won't find many successful people in football or sports in general. MAYBE Federer is qualified, maybe.

 

[Crossie]

@Alex99
The problem is that you continue to take out bits and pieces which resemble another manager's success story but neglect the whole story. That's why what Klopp achieved is rather unique. I'm not saying that Stuttgart or Werder haven't been successful; I'm saying that they haven't been as successful as Dortmund, i.e. in light of the circumstances including finances.
For example neither Stuttgart nor Werder were financially as fecked as Dortmund was (just a few years after bankruptcy). Both Stuttgart and Werder built up debt to stay competitive and suffer from that until this very day. Dortmund was able to reduce the debt.

More generally speaking, any appointment of a new manager, proven or unproven, experienced or inexperienced carries a risk. I don't see that this is something argued against in this thread; that's what I meant you're arguing claims that haven't been made.

 

[Alex99]

That was a common line in 2012 when Rodgers arrived and then 2013/14 happened.

Two things to consider:

1. Klopp has a track record of raising the level of unfashionable players so it is possibly folly to suggest Liverpool can't improve under his creative and effective coaching.

2. Like at all clubs, the 'present' playing staff is an extremely temporary concept. Just look at how swiftly United's 2013 champions disappeared as a collective. In light of this, offering yourself solace because current players may appear substandard eliminates the reality that new managers reshape squads and top club managers (which Klopp is unanimously viewed as being) is capable of squad building effectively.

Now neither of these two points is a guarantee to success but it's a more plausible reality than basing a train of thought on a series of half-hearted negatives that smack of cherry-picked confirmation bias.

I've always maintained that 2013/14 was a complete anomaly. Rodgers found himself in a perfect storm that season, with United, City and Chelsea all changing managers, and Suarez suddenly turning into one of the world's best players as well as Sturridge miraculously staying fit for a season. It was a complete flash in the pan, as evidence by the fact you sacked the guy last weekend.

1. And it possibly isn't. There's a distinction to be made between unearthed talent and unfashionable which I'm not sure you've made. The likes of Hummels, Lewandowski and Gundogan were unearthed talents when Klopp signed them. Milner, Lallana, Sakho and co. are simply not good enough,

2. United's 2013 champions were incredibly demoralised following the retirement of one of the greatest football managers to grace the game, with his replacement being woefully out of his comfort zone. I'd be extremely surprised if Mignolet suddenly turned into a top class keeper, Allen into an excellent midfielder, or Lallana into anything other than another average, English winger just because Klopp is in charge.

 

[Ole's_toe_poke]

Klopp is a great appointment. There's seriously no way to convince yourselves otherwise.

Track record of success + exciting football + ability to build teams + charismatic + ability to spot players + ability to motivate players.

He's absolutely brilliant. Liverpool will be getting one of the top managers in world football.

 

[PickledRed]

I've always maintained that 2013/14 was a complete anomaly. Rodgers found himself in a perfect storm that season, with United, City and Chelsea all changing managers, and Suarez suddenly turning into one of the world's best players as well as Sturridge miraculously staying fit for a season. It was a complete flash in the pan, as evidence by the fact you sacked the guy last weekend.

1. And it possibly isn't. There's a distinction to be made between unearthed talent and unfashionable which I'm not sure you've made. The likes of Hummels, Lewandowski and Gundogan were unearthed talents when Klopp signed them. Milner, Lallana, Sakho and co. are simply not good enough,

2. United's 2013 champions were incredibly demoralised following the retirement of one of the greatest football managers to grace the game, with his replacement being woefully out of his comfort zone. I'd be extremely surprised if Mignolet suddenly turned into a top class keeper, Allen into an excellent midfielder, or Lallana into anything other than another average, English winger just because Klopp is in charge.

You've completely missed my point '2'. Completely

 

[Alex99]

Yeah, feck me. Getting a club to first flight for the first time in its history and keeping them there for some years with the entire country expecting them to go down back immediately, then taking a shit, debt-ridden Dortmund team and taking them to two Bundesliga titles, one double and the CL final, turning them into one of the best clubs in Europe again in the process. Not successful at all, that chap.

I wonder what your definition of successful is. If it is "Ferguson at United", I'm afraid you won't find many successful people in football or sports in general. MAYBE Federer is qualified, maybe.

Some years? They were only there for three before they were relegated. As I've pointed out, Augsburg's rise has been far more impressive.

Yes, wonderful, we know Klopp took Dortmund to two titles, a double and a CL final. That also all occurred in just two seasons, before they found themselves bottom of the table at the mid-point of the season just three seasons later. He also did something not particularly unheard of in Germany by taking a team from an unfancied position to title winners in only a few seasons.

My definition of success just happens to extend further than a brief stint in the top flight and finding title contenders fighting their way up from the bottom of the table. Klopp's had two very successful seasons, and three reasonable seasons. Again, it's good, but it's not as amazing as some like to make out. I'd really love to see your explanation for Klopp's 11 very successful seasons.

 

[Alex99]

You've completely missed my point '2'. Completely

How so? I've already said I think the pulling power of Klopp and Liverpool is overstated and the only other component of squad building outside of that is working with what you've got, and what Liverpool currently have isn't too spectacular.

 

[B20]

Tell us who is not overrated then, Alex.

 

[PickledRed]

How so? I've already said I think the pulling power of Klopp and Liverpool is overstated and the only other component of squad building outside of that is working with what you've got, and what Liverpool currently have isn't too spectacular.

Ok. So Klopp won't add quality?

Read through your posts here. Trying. Too. Hard.

 

[thegregster]

Some years? They were only there for three before they were relegated. As I've pointed out, Augsburg's rise has been far more impressive.

Yes, wonderful, we know Klopp took Dortmund to two titles, a double and a CL final. That also all occurred in just two seasons, before they found themselves bottom of the table at the mid-point of the season just three seasons later. He also did something not particularly unheard of in Germany by taking a team from an unfancied position to title winners in only a few seasons.

My definition of success just happens to extend further than a brief stint in the top flight and finding title contenders fighting their way up from the bottom of the table. Klopp's had two very successful seasons, and three reasonable seasons. Again, it's good, but it's not as amazing as some like to make out. I'd really love to see your explanation for Klopp's 11 very successful seasons.

Kaiserslautern got promoted in 97 and won the league the next season. Rapid rises in fortune are very common in German football alright.

 

[JPRouve]

Klopp is a great appointment. There's seriously no way to convince yourselves otherwise.

Track record of success + exciting football + ability to build teams + charismatic + ability to spot players + ability to motivate players.

He's absolutely brilliant. Liverpool will be getting one of the top managers in world football.

This, and it will be sweeter to beat them.

 

[B20]

Kaiserslautern got promoted in 97 and won the league the next season. Rapid rises in fortune are very common in German football alright.

That has happened more often in England than in Germany.

 

[thegregster]

That has happened more often in England than in Germany.

Not since the 70s.

 

[B20]

Not since the 70s.

And kaiserslauten was nearly 20 years ago. What's the cutoff?

 

[UnofficialDevil]

Klopp is a great appointment. There's seriously no way to convince yourselves otherwise.

Track record of success + exciting football + ability to build teams + charismatic + ability to spot players + ability to motivate players.

He's absolutely brilliant. Liverpool will be getting one of the top managers in world football.

Aaaaaaargh.... I cant stand this.

 

[PickledRed]

Not since the 70s.

Blackburn?

 

[itso 7]

Great appointment by Liverpool, really excited to see what he can do with them if they give him full backing. For us it won't matter if simply up our game both in recruitment, squad and game management because from an efficiency point of view it can be argued that we have not really enjoyed the full value of the money we have poured into the squad.

 

[PickledRed]

And kaiserslauten was nearly 20 years ago. What's the cutoff?

The cutoff is whatever piece of confirmation bias suits.

 

[Alex99]

@Alex99
The problem is that you continue to take out bits and pieces which resemble another manager's success story but neglect the whole story. That's why what Klopp achieved is rather unique. I'm not saying that Stuttgart or Werder haven't been successful; I'm saying that they haven't been as successful as Dortmund, i.e. in light of the circumstances including finances.
For example neither Stuttgart nor Werder were financially as fecked as Dortmund was (just a few years after bankruptcy). Both Stuttgart and Werder built up debt to stay competitive and suffer from that until this very day. Dortmund was able to reduce the debt.

More generally speaking, any appointment of a new manager, proven or unproven, experienced or inexperienced carries a risk. I don't see that this is something argued against in this thread; that's what I meant you're arguing claims that haven't been made.

The original post I responded to took issue with a journalist pointing out that Klopp's appointment is still something of a risk. That's what I agreed with and that's what I've argued. The current media narrative, and the one echoed by many fans is that Klopp is going to be a huge success at Liverpool. I disagree. He might, but it's not guaranteed.

After that, I've merely pointed out similar (not identical) things that have happened in German football that add some perspective to Klopp's achievements. It's ludicrous to suggest he's had 11 very successful seasons in management (as has happened in this thread), and I'm utterly baffled at claims that he's one of the world's top managers. Others may not be, but that's their prerogative. I think a top manager wouldn't find his title contending team bottom of the table at the season's mid-point, finding himself having to battle back up to 7th. A bad season for a top manager at a title contending club consists of dropping out of the title race but still finishing near the top, not mid-table mediocrity.

As for managers that are very good and aren't overrated, I'd go with those that have either had a long period at the top level, ala Fergie and Wenger, or those that have proven themselves at numerous clubs, ala Ancelotti and LvG. Mourinho's a very good manager, but I often see people talk about him taking over clubs in need of a big rebuild (United included) and he's simply not that type of manager. Likewise, Guardiola is a very good manager, but he's only ever managed already amazing sides, with little in the way of a challenge domestically. I think Klopp's overrated because people seem very quick to disregard his final season at Dortmund, and very eager to amplify his achievements with them and Mainz.

 

[Balu]

What the feck has Kaiserslautern in '98 to do with Klopp? Rehagel was the manager back then, but 1. he's retired and 2. Klopp has some way to go to be considered as great a manager as Rehagel.

 

[Alex99]

The cutoff is whatever piece of confirmation bias suits.

Augsburg only got promoted a few seasons ago and they're the club I've been using as an example, or is the present day too long ago now to not be considered confirmation bias?

Ok. So Klopp won't add quality?

Read through your posts here. Trying. Too. Hard.

Off course he'll add some quality, I'm just not convinced he'll be able to bring in title challenging quality. Basically, you want me to tell you I think Klopp will make Liverpool a top side by virtue of his signings, despite me believing that he'll struggle to bring in the caliber of player needed to challenge for titles.

 

[Cristiano Lell]

Well, let's just conclude that the likelihood of Klopp being considered a top manager on here has not increased since we've known he's joining Liverpool.
And I guess that's ok.

 

[iammemphis]

Guys.. He almost relegated Dortmund last year. Its not all positive!

 

[Alex99]

Well, let's just conclude that the likelihood of Klopp being considered a top manager on here has not increased since we've known he's joining Liverpool.
And I guess that's ok.

If, and it's a big if, he turns this Liverpool side into a force to be reckoned with, I think he has to be considered one. I'm still not entirely convinced he will though.

 

[thegregster]

And kaiserslauten was nearly 20 years ago. What's the cutoff?

What the feck has Kaiserslautern in '98 to do with Klopp? Rehagel was the manager back then, but 1. he's retired and 2. Klopp has some way to go to be considered as great a manager as Rehagel.

The point is teams can rise and fall quickly in Germany. Wolfsburg went from 15th to 5th to Champions in 2009. When was the last time anything like this happened in England without huge funds?

The PL had 4 established teams for years. Man utd,Liverpool,Arsenal,Chelsea. Only Spurs and Everton managed to gatecrash it.

Then City came and took Liverpools place. Since the new big 4 has come about only Liverpool gatecrashed it in 2014.

The PL has never been as open as the German league.

 

[Drifter]

Guys.. He almost relegated Dortmund last year. Its not all positive!

Sssh .Some are depressed.

 

[C'est Moi Cantona]

Sad he's going to Liverpool because I do like the guy, It's going to be really interesting to see how he does, because I maintain that Rodgers did a very good job at Liverpool under the working conditions he had, and at the financial level Liverpool were punching.

People can harp on all they want about how much he spent, but he was severely hamstrung by what they would spend on wages, he also lost Suarez, and Sturridge in his defining season, and as good as lost Sterling latterly, he didn't do a bad job overall.

Klopp is taking a big risk doing this, because he will be expected to obliterate what Rodgers did under the same working conditions, if he can then he truly is the messiah.

 

[Red Dreams]

the return match should be interesting.

 

[botond]

good stuff. great for the premier league , potentially great for Liverpool if he actually gets enough time and money . will be interesting to see what kind of players he will approach as they cant spend as much as us,city and chelsea .