I don't think a 5th/6th place finish and a domestic cup would be unrealistic
Bring in new players and push for top 4 next year.Klopp Confirmed Liverpool Manager
- Thread starter RedMachine03
- Start date
- Status
I don't think a 5th/6th place finish and a domestic cup would be unrealistic
Bring in new players and push for top 4 next year.I don't think a 5th/6th place finish and a domestic cup would be unrealistic
a good manager will build a 'team'. That is the key. Fergie did it....Paisley and Shanks did it. If Klopp is what they say he is, you will not be far off your prediction.
First of all the first thing you wrote was - "Did you really just claim that Ancelotti has a 'good track record for developing young players', 'more than Klopp'?" And if you look back you will find i said no such thing. i only criticized the lack of adaptability the klopp has shown in the last few years to move away from the gegenpressing style and contrasted that with ancelotti whos tactics were different each year and with each team he coached. Thats where I compared the two. Not youth development. Please try to comprehend this.
Secondly, I dont think you know what youre talking about. under ancelotti a teenage kaka, a 22 yr old Pirlo and a 24yr old shevchenko became the world class players we know them as today. so yes i do think his development of young players was great at milan. esp because Prilo one of the best midfielders of my generation was an attacking midfielder and it was ancelotti who converted him to a deep lying playmaker. the milan side is his legacy and the proof of his contribution in development of young players. So when you say things like - Carlo is a fantastic manager, but developing youngsters is absolutely not his area of expertise...then youre obviously talking crap.
At chelsea, psg and madrid he spent too little time to 'develop' young players. But nonetheless he gave them chances which is more than you can say for many other coaches...
at chelsea (who did not rely on youth at all because of what mourinho and abrahmovich did to them) he still gave games to mceachran and got the best out of average players like malouda. at psg he played verratti pastore and lucas regularly (esp verratti even though it was their first season at the club). matuidi turned a corner under ancelotti as well and became the player he is today.
Malouda was only a decent winger before Ancelotti turned him into the most exciting winger in the league for a brief while.
He absolutely developed Pirlo who owes his career to Ancelotti finding a completely different position for him in a system few others would even have dared contemplate.
Seedorf too, who found a new place on the left of the diamond and developed from a technically gifted motor midfielder into a highly tactically astute and clever left-sided midfielder. Like Pirlo, he looked like a busted talent before Ancelotti worked with him.
I think the key really is not whether he improves youngsters, but players. And to he credit he also took well established players like Cole, Terry, Di Maria, Maldini and Drogba, altered their roles in the team and let them display new facets of their game that previous managers didn't get from these players.
I'd say that's an even harder feat than moulding young players.
Ancelotti is the man when it comes to this sort of thing.
He absolutely developed Pirlo who owes his career to Ancelotti finding a completely different position for him in a system few others would even have dared contemplate.
Seedorf too, who found a new place on the left of the diamond and developed from a technically gifted motor midfielder into a highly tactically astute and clever left-sided midfielder. Like Pirlo, he looked like a busted talent before Ancelotti worked with him.
I think the key really is not whether he improves youngsters, but players. And to he credit he also took well established players like Cole, Terry, Di Maria, Maldini and Drogba, altered their roles in the team and let them display new facets of their game that previous managers didn't get from these players.
I'd say that's an even harder feat than moulding young players.
Ancelotti is the man when it comes to this sort of thing.
If you look at it that way, the appointment of every new manager is a risk. There's no such thing as a safe bet in football.Klopp has only ever managed two clubs, and his period at Mainz can be considered as a success as well in the long haul, suggesting otherwise is just silly. He's been at both clubs for seven years. If he stays at Liverpool for seven years and achieves only half of what he did at Dortmund, I wouldn't give a shit if he underperforms in his last season, neither did Dortmund fans - not every manager is a Wenger or SAF, he just ran out of steam and the chemistry with his players wasn't there anymore, not unlogical after seven years. I don't get the obsession with his last season at Dortmund; yes, it was a bad one, but overall he's been a massive, massive success at the club and he'll always be a Dortmund hero because of what he did for that club.
It's mind-boggling, especially if people ignore that almost all the problems are explained with him being at the club for such a long time. I had that argument with several Bayern fans, who don't even realise that we've never had a manager staying for more than 6 seasons. Maybe he should have left earlier, difficult to say. But I wouldn't worry about his 7th season just yet.
Klopp has only ever managed two clubs, and his period at Mainz can be considered as a success as well in the long haul, suggesting otherwise is just silly. He's been at both clubs for seven years. If he stays at Liverpool for seven years and achieves only half of what he did at Dortmund, I wouldn't give a shit if he underperforms in his last season, neither did Dortmund fans - not every manager is a Wenger or SAF, he just ran out of steam and the chemistry with his players wasn't there anymore, not unlogical after seven years. I don't get the obsession with his last season at Dortmund; yes, it was a bad one, but overall he's been a massive, massive success at the club and he'll always be a Dortmund hero because of what he did for that club.
@RobinLFC
Alex99 showed in previous posts hardly any correct insights into Klopp's work at Mainz and Dortmund or the Bundesliga in general and therefore, I get the feeling his mind won't change no matter what actually has happened during Klopp's BL days and what will happen once Klopp gets actually appointed LFC manager.
Alex99 showed in previous posts hardly any correct insights into Klopp's work at Mainz and Dortmund or the Bundesliga in general and therefore, I get the feeling his mind won't change no matter what actually has happened during Klopp's BL days and what will happen once Klopp gets actually appointed LFC manager.
Klopp has only ever managed two clubs, and his period at Mainz can be considered as a success as well in the long haul, suggesting otherwise is just silly. He's been at both clubs for seven years. If he stays at Liverpool for seven years and achieves only half of what he did at Dortmund, I wouldn't give a shit if he underperforms in his last season, neither did Dortmund fans - not every manager is a Wenger or SAF, he just ran out of steam and the chemistry with his players wasn't there anymore, not unlogical after seven years. I don't get the obsession with his last season at Dortmund; yes, it was a bad one, but overall he's been a massive, massive success at the club and he'll always be a Dortmund hero because of what he did for that club.
His years at Mainz not only "can be considered a success", they definitely were a success!! He took a club that had never played in the Bundesliga all the way up to the first division and kept them in there for years. He was already the new kid on the block in Germany back then. He was good enough at Mainz that Bayern considered signing him as a coach in 2009 but in the end they chose Klinsmann because he had the flashier name and was supposed to bring an all new concept. Klopp's times in Dortmund and in Mainz were both incredible successes!!
That said, only time can tell how well he does in the BPL but to talk down his achievements is a bit silly.
Agreed. For all the hate our squad gets, I don't think it's too far off being competitive with the top 4. Of course the top four are always going to be that one step ahead if they continue to spend what they can and we do the same, but hopefully Klopp's presence can help us attract better talents, and he can continue his great track record of youth development & uncovering stars in the making (and hopefully not sell them to Bayern afterwards).
Klopp is a really damn good manager but I don't think he's a miracle worker, I think it'll be next season when he pushes for the top 4 (although it depends entirely on Chelsea) and then if he cements his position in the CL that's when we'll see what type of team he'll be able to build. It's just a matter of whether he can compete with the rate which the rest of the league is spending. I think Klopp is really good for the league too; he could have a similar effect on us that he had on Bayern, basically forcing them to up their game to stay competitive with his Dortmund side. Either way we'll be seeing a new and exciting project forming in English football, just a shame it's for the Scouse.
The bolded part is just embarrasingly ignorant.
Klopp took over BVB in 2008 after they finished 13th (!) and had just had barely escaped bankruptcy. The placements he led them to in his 7 seasons were:
6th, 5th, 1st, 1st, 2nd., 2nd, 7th. Final season included the cup final and CL 1/16th.
If that is a 'very brief period of success' ending with 'woeful underperformance' I'm pretty sure Liverpool fans will take both of that.
As for that article by John Cross.
Obviously there is always a risk and never any guarantees. Obviously Klopp isn't a magician or didn't reinvent the wheel. Obviously he hasn't the record of Ancelotti, or the proven longevity of Wenger. It's important no doubt to remember that and adjust expectations.
But many of the points made in it are pretty misleading, or outright clueless.
The "but.. but.. BVB had world class players in Hummels, Gündogan, Lewandowski while Liverpool have trash" point obviously omisses that these players grew into world class player only under Klopp, after they were brought in as more or less nobodies for combined fees of about 15m € altogether. In other words, half a Lovren.
Especially when coupled with the "but.. but.. when he lost his top players in Götze and Lewandowski, he struggled" point.
Lewandowski himself replaced Barrios, who was starting striker in the first league championship and was sold. Gündogan was the replacement of Sahin who went to Real. Reus of Kagawa who went to United.
It's not as if Klopp didn't continue to be successful while losing players.
Not that one couldn't expect that sort of revisionism to take hold on here now
next year la
Next year?
Try this year la
Their squad is world class mate.
Try this year la
Their squad is world class mate.
I think that both times just say one thing - it took awhile, then there was the success - but somewhen the time is over and he does not reach the players anymore. But - 4 or more years until that happens is a long time in today's club/manager career. Think about Mou's 3rd years...
I do not think that the quality of the players is the problem - that is a problem when the opponent starts to sit back and you need a plan B. Klopp's philosophy is a philosphy to get everything out of the team - not individuals. We often have seen how players that looked so great in the Dortmund system did not look like this for Germany.
Regardless of what his army of fan boys think, Klopp is still a relatively unproven manager. He's managed in just one country, and had proper success in just two seasons. When the bar is winning league titles and becoming a European force, promotion hardly cuts it.
He didn't keep Mainz up for years, he kept them up for two seasons, before getting relegated in the third. He then quit after just one season back in the second tier because they didn't go straight back up. It's also a complete lie to suggest that he built them up from nothing. They had a good crack at promotion not too long before he took charge, and were a pretty well established second tier side for a long time before they gained their first promotion, having been there consistently since 1990. Mainz were then promoted the season after Klopp left, and have remained in the top flight ever since. In large part due to the efforts of his replacement at Dortmund.
Mainz weren't a nothing, minnow of a club when he became their manager, they were an established second tier side. It also isn't completely unheard of for a team to earn promotion to the Bundesliga for the first time and remain there for longer than three seasons. Augsburg have done exactly that, and they were in the 4th tier when Klopp took charge of Mainz.
His apparent Lazarus-esque revival of Dortmund is hugely overstated as well. Yes they'd finished 13th the season before he got the job, but a trajectory of 13th, 6th, 5th then 1st isn't exactly unheard of in Germany. Wolfsburg had gone from 15th in 06-07, to 5th in 07-08, to winning the league in 08-09, and that was under Felix Magath. Werder Bremen managed something similar, finish 13th in 98-99, then winning the league in 03-04, with a few 9th to 6th placed finishes in between, all under Thomas Schaaf. Then there's Stuttgart that went from 9th to 1st in consecutive seasons under Armin Veh.
No one thought Magath, Schaaf or Veh were the second coming of Christ when they did something similar, nor did they think Klaus Toppmoller when he took an unfancied Bayer Leverkusen to the Champions League Final in 2002. The reason Klopp is so highly regarded is because Dortmund played an exciting brand of football, a brand not too dissimilar to the style Rodgers played in 2013/14, and because he's a bit of a nutter.
Klopp may well do a decent job at Liverpool, but it certainly isn't disingenuous to say that employing him represents something of a risk. The ship has already sailed for gung-ho, high-pressing football because teams know exactly how to deal with it. It's also no guarantee that Klopp will be able to unearth the number of low-priced, future-stars that he did with Dortmund, or that the likes of Hummels, Reus and Gundogan will suddenly flock to Anfield because their old manager is there. There's a huge difference between employing someone who has won top honours with multiple teams, in multiple countries, over a long career, like Ancelotti, or someone who has consistently kept a team at the top of the game for a long period of time, like Fergie, and someone who has enjoyed a season or two of success, like Klopp.
Klopp had seven full seasons at Mainz, then quit when things didn't carry on as he wanted them to. He then had seven seasons at Dortmund, then quit when things didn't carry on as he wanted them to. It's going to take something out of the ordinary to get Liverpool back up to being title contenders (such as managerial changes at the three top clubs and a player suddenly turning into one of the best in the world), or some sheer managerial brilliance. If Klopp, like Mourinho, can only keep players motivated for a few seasons, it's no good for Liverpool if everyone goes to shit before the job is done.
He didn't keep Mainz up for years, he kept them up for two seasons, before getting relegated in the third. He then quit after just one season back in the second tier because they didn't go straight back up. It's also a complete lie to suggest that he built them up from nothing. They had a good crack at promotion not too long before he took charge, and were a pretty well established second tier side for a long time before they gained their first promotion, having been there consistently since 1990. Mainz were then promoted the season after Klopp left, and have remained in the top flight ever since. In large part due to the efforts of his replacement at Dortmund.
Mainz weren't a nothing, minnow of a club when he became their manager, they were an established second tier side. It also isn't completely unheard of for a team to earn promotion to the Bundesliga for the first time and remain there for longer than three seasons. Augsburg have done exactly that, and they were in the 4th tier when Klopp took charge of Mainz.
His apparent Lazarus-esque revival of Dortmund is hugely overstated as well. Yes they'd finished 13th the season before he got the job, but a trajectory of 13th, 6th, 5th then 1st isn't exactly unheard of in Germany. Wolfsburg had gone from 15th in 06-07, to 5th in 07-08, to winning the league in 08-09, and that was under Felix Magath. Werder Bremen managed something similar, finish 13th in 98-99, then winning the league in 03-04, with a few 9th to 6th placed finishes in between, all under Thomas Schaaf. Then there's Stuttgart that went from 9th to 1st in consecutive seasons under Armin Veh.
No one thought Magath, Schaaf or Veh were the second coming of Christ when they did something similar, nor did they think Klaus Toppmoller when he took an unfancied Bayer Leverkusen to the Champions League Final in 2002. The reason Klopp is so highly regarded is because Dortmund played an exciting brand of football, a brand not too dissimilar to the style Rodgers played in 2013/14, and because he's a bit of a nutter.
Klopp may well do a decent job at Liverpool, but it certainly isn't disingenuous to say that employing him represents something of a risk. The ship has already sailed for gung-ho, high-pressing football because teams know exactly how to deal with it. It's also no guarantee that Klopp will be able to unearth the number of low-priced, future-stars that he did with Dortmund, or that the likes of Hummels, Reus and Gundogan will suddenly flock to Anfield because their old manager is there. There's a huge difference between employing someone who has won top honours with multiple teams, in multiple countries, over a long career, like Ancelotti, or someone who has consistently kept a team at the top of the game for a long period of time, like Fergie, and someone who has enjoyed a season or two of success, like Klopp.
Klopp had seven full seasons at Mainz, then quit when things didn't carry on as he wanted them to. He then had seven seasons at Dortmund, then quit when things didn't carry on as he wanted them to. It's going to take something out of the ordinary to get Liverpool back up to being title contenders (such as managerial changes at the three top clubs and a player suddenly turning into one of the best in the world), or some sheer managerial brilliance. If Klopp, like Mourinho, can only keep players motivated for a few seasons, it's no good for Liverpool if everyone goes to shit before the job is done.
What? I knew Balotelli left, but when did Lovren go?
It's some logic to mention a lot of teams that had one great season and dropped again afterwards as equals to Klopp's Dortmund side and then criticise Klopp for a lack of consistency, when he kept Dortmund in the top 2 in the league for 4 consecutive seasons, which no club other than Bayern had achieved since the European Cup winning Hamburg side from the early 80's.
Don't bother, Balu. You are a Bayern fan and therefore too biased to not be dismissed out of hand in this frank and objective appraisal.
Thinking about it, a prime example of a coach who had "very brief period of success, which ended with a season of woeful underperformance" would be van Gaal at Bayern.
This thread Some you are embarrassing yourselves with these mental gymnastics to convince yourselves that Klopp is anything but a great appointment for Liverpool.
With the situation they are in, he is pretty much the best manager they could have gotten. I doubt even someone like Ancelotti is a better appointment given he would require a top squad to succeed.
Some you are embarrassing yourselves with these mental gymnastics to convince yourselves that Klopp is anything but a great appointment for Liverpool.With the situation they are in, he is pretty much the best manager they could have gotten. I doubt even someone like Ancelotti is a better appointment given he would require a top squad to succeed.
Your post is too funny. Not just that you're back-paddling on some points and all of a sudden argue against claims which haven't made but you're bringing on some other good stuff as well:
Your comparison of Wolfsburg's Bundesliga single title to the two of Dortmund (plus a cup win, two additional cup finals, 1 CL final) is highly entertaining. Even with a very superficial look, there's hardly anything comparable. Wolfsburg won with one of the lowest points ever if not the lowest necessary for a German champion since the introduction of the 3-point rule. Bayern's squad that season was not the strongest but if they have had a more capable manager than Jürgen Klinsmann, they would have still be able to finish above Wolfsburg.
More importantly though is that Magath had spent a very high 2-digit million figure on transfers, spent big bucks for wages and bought roughly 10-20 players per season. No wonder that he was able to find some capable players like Dzeko or Grafite among such an abundance of players or able to pay someone like Misimovic. 15 out of 18 German clubs would have been instantly bankrupt if they had acted that way, among those 15 Borussia Dortmund.
On a different note: Can you tell me exactly in how many countries SAF has proven his worth? In total and after about 15 years of work as amiddle aged coach? And would you be able to tell me at how many clubs Ancelotti had stayed as long as 7 years? Or any other coach who pass your subjective definition of a proven no-risk-to-hire-coach?
Last edited:
Ni
Nice post.
At least they are going for Klopp and not Guardiola, who's never been able to motivate a team for longer than 3 seasons. What an absolute tosser. At least Klopp managed a measly 7 years.
Bonkers. The post looks like it's based on looking at Bundesliga end results for 10 minutes without much knowledge about how the success was achieved, how the other teams where doing, how much money was spent and in what states the other clubs where left behind by their managers (Wolfsburg, Bremen).
Bonkers. The post looks like it's based on looking at Bundesliga end results for 10 minutes without much knowledge about how the success was achieved, how the other teams where doing, how much money was spent and in what states the other clubs where left behind by their managers (Wolfsburg, Bremen).
Looks as if it's really ON.
That was indeed my first thought when the rumors seemed to have a more solid background than usual: That it wouldn't be nice to have to defeat Jürgen's new team.Now all we need to do is get outta the EL group stages and play Dortmund in the final
Klopp will never allow that any competition is taken lightly or too many players rested. He'll want the team to go at full throttle.
It's argumentum ad wikipedium
Looks like I am going to make money off my first ever online bet. A whole pound from the tenner I put on.
Thinking about it, a prime example of a coach who had "very brief period of success, which ended with a season of woeful underperformance" would be van Gaal at Bayern.
Must have made up all that stuff he won with Ajax, Barca and AZ then.
Your post is too funny. Not just that you're back-paddling on some points and all of a sudden argue against claims which haven't made but you're bringing on some other good stuff as well:
Your comparison of Wolfsburg's Bundesliga single title to the two of Dortmund (plus a cup win, two additional cup finals, 1 CL final) is highly entertaining. Even with a very superficial look, there's hardly anything comparable. Wolfsburg won with one of the lowest points ever if not the lowest necessary for a German champion since the introduction of the 3-point rule. Bayern's squad that season was not the strongest but if they have had a more capable manager than Jürgen Klinsmann, they would have still be able to finish above Wolfsburg.
More importantly though is that Magath had spent a very high 2-digit million figure on transfers, spent big bucks for wages and bought roughly 10-20 players per season. No wonder that he was able to find some capable players like Dzeko or Grafite among such an abundance of players or able to pay someone like Misimovic. 15 out of 18 German clubs would have been instantly bankrupt if they had acted that way, among those 15 Borussia Dortmund.
On a different note: Can you tell me exactly in how many countries SAF has proven his worth? In total and after about 15 years of work as amiddle aged coach? And would you be able to tell me at how many clubs Ancelotti had stayed as long as 7 years? Or any other coach who pass your subjective definition of a proven no-risk-to-hire-coach?
Did Wolfsburg win the league after being low down in the table a few seasons prior, or did they not? How about Werder Bremen and Stuttgart who you've notably ignored?
On the topic of ignoring things, did you miss the or that made up part of that sentence? Winning things with different teams in different countries over a sustained period or winning things with one team for a sustained period. Fergie broke the Old Firm dominance in Scotland and won a European trophy with Aberdeen, before establishing Manchester United as one of the top sides in Europe for a consistent period lasting over 20 years. Ancelotti has won top honours with four different clubs in four different countries over a period of 10 years.
There are very few managers who I think would be a no-risk-appointment, which is partly my point. Klopp is very much a risk. I'm not saying Klopp's a rubbish manager, because a rubbish manager doesn't win two consecutive league titles and reach a Champions League final. However, I'm still not convinced he's a great manager, and I think he's got to do a lot more as a manager before he warrants the hype that surrounds him. He could well turn Liverpool into title contenders again, but I just can't see it, and I really don't understand why he's lauded by so many.
That was indeed my first thought when the rumors seemed to have a more solid background than usual: That it wouldn't be nice to have to defeat Jürgen's new team.
Klopp will never allow that any competition is taken lightly or too many players rested. He'll want the team to go at full throttle.
Music to my ears after draws against the mighty FC Sion & Carlisle.
And what happened to all three clubs after their ascend to the top? Where did they finish the next seasons? How did they do in the CL? And what happened to Dortmund after Klopp had taken them upstairs? That, my friend, is the difference.
Only Schaaf was able to keep Bremen stably in the top 3 for a while, yet they where still lightyears away from the team Klopp has built in Dortmund.
Has he won as many trophies as Dick Advocaat?
What kind of football does Klopp play? Attacking? Defensive?
Second best German in the league.
I've decided he reminds me of Bingo from the Banana Splits
Last edited:
Defacking football
@Alex99
Let's agree to diasagree on almost anything then. It's telling that you don't even acknowledge the particular circumstances of Wolfsburg's title win, pinpoint it only on one single aspect that suits your opinion, also ignoring that they had burnt a three-digit million of bucks for years before and even fought relegation, totally ignore their lack of sustained success in years subsequent to their title but still put them in the same bucket as Dortmund's back to back titles, 2 runners up, 2 cup finals, 1 CL final; it indicates that you're not interested in the whole picture but cherry-pick and take things totally out of context in an effort to prove your point. Continuing discussions on that basis is pointless.
Let's agree to diasagree on almost anything then. It's telling that you don't even acknowledge the particular circumstances of Wolfsburg's title win, pinpoint it only on one single aspect that suits your opinion, also ignoring that they had burnt a three-digit million of bucks for years before and even fought relegation, totally ignore their lack of sustained success in years subsequent to their title but still put them in the same bucket as Dortmund's back to back titles, 2 runners up, 2 cup finals, 1 CL final; it indicates that you're not interested in the whole picture but cherry-pick and take things totally out of context in an effort to prove your point. Continuing discussions on that basis is pointless.
This thread -
Klopp fans : United are fecked, Pool have best tactician and manager in whole world.
Liverpool fans : Messiah number 46545648978945, next year is our year, THEY.ARE.SCARED.
Insane fans :He is shit, not proven, prem league is miles better than shit bundes liga, i secretely love him and want him to be united manager
Reality - He will have to have worse year than he has ever had to get sack this season, have to have the best year he has ever had to win them the league this season. He is a good manager, but so are mourinho,van gaal and wenger. Pochettino is doing a good job, hell billic is doing a good job. He might be good or bad, it all depends on huge factors that none of you can predict so why bang your heads against each other? Its okay that pool fans feel excited, for united fans yes this rules out him from united job but whose loss is it? There will always be a great manager available why fret? Take it as a new challenge.
Klopp fans : United are fecked, Pool have best tactician and manager in whole world.
Liverpool fans : Messiah number 46545648978945, next year is our year, THEY.ARE.SCARED.
Insane fans :He is shit, not proven, prem league is miles better than shit bundes liga, i secretely love him and want him to be united manager
Reality - He will have to have worse year than he has ever had to get sack this season, have to have the best year he has ever had to win them the league this season. He is a good manager, but so are mourinho,van gaal and wenger. Pochettino is doing a good job, hell billic is doing a good job. He might be good or bad, it all depends on huge factors that none of you can predict so why bang your heads against each other? Its okay that pool fans feel excited, for united fans yes this rules out him from united job but whose loss is it? There will always be a great manager available why fret? Take it as a new challenge.
- Status