An accurate summation of the attitude of many on here to our dealings in the transfer market.
Khedira
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) are here to discuss Amad saving our blushes in a win against Southampton as well as our now annual loss at home to Brighton. They discuss Amorim's post-match comments, revisit how mid-table we may or may not be, and discuss some transfer news.
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An accurate summation of the attitude of many on here to our dealings in the transfer market.
I think LVG should switch to his preffered 4-3-3, Carrick in front of the defence with Herrera and Khedira the other 2.
Wow some of these comments, De Jong and Song instead of Khedira.The guy is a world champion, did you guys not watch the world cup? If he was that bad he wouldn't have got into the German team, country where they don't lack a pool of talent to choose from.
He get's around the pitch, is physical, will break up play and drive the midfield forward and is not that bad on the ball as people are making out. He's exactly the type of midfielder we need, granted he's no Vidal but looks like we are not going to get him so we have to look at alternatives. We miss his type of presence and energy in midfield.
I noticed he played alongside Schweinsteiger and Kroos, in a role he's "the best in the world at" - that doesn't seem to be the situation at United. As I say, if we get him, I'll switch opinions immediately and trust that LvG can see how it all fits together. And I certainly won't be disappointed or complain about the cash if we do buy him, I can just understand why we might not want to.
This is Sami Khedira we're talking about here. He gets picked for Madrid and Germany by world class managers, he's a fantastic player, box to box with bags of experience, yet, we will have no need for him and people can't see what he brings to the table, i give up. Never knew it's a crime for him not to be as good as Vidal.
If Khedira is actually going for 8 million, it would be criminal for us to not go for him.
It's not that, if he comes I'll be happy and I think he will add quality.
However people are asking in the thread why we haven't already bid for him (assuming we haven't) and adding it to our list of incompetent behaviour in the market as if Woodward or LvG haven't noticed that he's sat there with a "buy now" tag round his neck. I'm sure they've noticed he's for sale, and if we don't bid for him I will understand why.
It's like Mourinho saying Ozil is the best #10 in the world - he still didn't bid for him.
Yes but Mourinho had other rather good 10s available at his club when he made that comment, who do we have in CM apart from Herrera ?
I get it, it's people who say they don't see what he brings, it's like we are blessed with quality options. He's a similar player to Vidal, who, let's face it we won't be getting. I don't understand why we won't be interested in him anyway. We haven't bid for him doesn't really mean much, we haven't bid for anyone now, not even Di Maria or Vidal, doesn't mean we are not interested/or not. But i get your point.
Cleverley, Anderson, Fletcher and Fellaini. I don't think any of them would start at any other top 10 team.
Fernandinho is far more of a holding midfielder.
these are valid thoughts. The problem is, that its late in the transfer window. If you want anyone he is probably as good as it gets. To think that Song or de Jong are better is just madness. Van gaal and Woody fecked up to make the necessary transfers one month ago. Now there is not much choice. Most teams are done with their business and not willing to let anyone go.
Would have to disagree with that, he likes to get forward, he's not a classic holding player where he sits in front of the defence and rarely goes into the final third. Not sure of the stats but he did score quite a few goals last season, a proper holding midfielder would be lucky to get one goal.
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I have, for some strange reason always liked Khedira and it looks like he has a good balance of passing skills, general technique, work rate, tackles etc. so I rate him fairly well, but as a DM there are much better options, sure. If we are looking for a pure DM Martinez or Benders are imo. much better.
I'm still not sure why anyone would want to play with 3 centerbacks and a holding midfielder. That's as one dimensional and boring as I can imagine a line-up to be. I'd understand it if there was a libero type centerback in that back 3, who wants to move forward all the time and you need the holding midfielder to cover for him (dare I say David Luiz could actually be a very good player in that set-up). But if you play 3 centerbacks and none of them is capable of stepping forward and covering the space behind 2 box to box midfielders, the problem isn't hypothetically Khedira next to Herrera in midfield, it's a lack of the right players in the three centerback positions.
Personally I have no clue why van Gaal doesn't play a diamond. The players are way more familiar with the back four and Herrera and Khedira would be perfect players for the wide midfield roles in the diamond. And it would offer the same possibility of playing Mata as an AM behind Rooney and van Persie. The main difference would be that the weak spot in the team, the central midfield, would have an additional player and the gaping hole between midfield and defense would be filled. It would also give more protection to the defense than just adding another defender while letting the opponent run through midfield. Khedira all of a sudden would be a brilliant addition to the team with his energy and off the ball runs, when Carrick returns for the defensive midfield role.
But yeah, from what I've seen so far of United this season, Khedira isn't the right player to solve United's problems in that 352. I doubt Vidal would be either though, who is actually a similar player than Khedira, just better. But if it's true that van Gaal only plays the 352 out of necessity, not because he wants to, why would the club look for players to fit into that system anyway? Surely the players brought in should fit the tactics the manager wants to play, not the tactics the manager has to play right now because of an imbalanced squad?
Personally I have no clue why van Gaal doesn't play a diamond. The players are way more familiar with the back four and Herrera and Khedira would be perfect players for the wide midfield roles in the diamond. And it would offer the same possibility of playing Mata as an AM behind Rooney and van Persie. The main difference would be that the weak spot in the team, the central midfield, would have an additional player and the gaping hole between midfield and defense would be filled. It would also give more protection to the defense than just adding another defender while letting the opponent run through midfield. Khedira all of a sudden would be a brilliant addition to the team with his energy and off the ball runs, when Carrick returns for the defensive midfield role.
But yeah, from what I've seen so far of United this season, Khedira isn't the right player to solve United's problems in that 352. I doubt Vidal would be either though, who is actually a similar player than Khedira, just better. But if it's true that van Gaal only plays the 352 out of necessity, not because he wants to, why would the club look for players to fit into that system anyway? Surely the players brought in should fit the tactics the manager wants to play, not the tactics the manager has to play right now because of an imbalanced squad?
Our squad is a mess. You have three #10s out of which only 1 can play a different role (Rooney as striker), you got 2 forwards and you cannot bench either of them so you're forced to play both, you have many defenders but none of them top quality, you got three wingers and only one of them has the potential to be any good. Trying to work out a formation for this team is very difficult, you have to have Mata, Rooney and van Persie there otherwise you're not playing a world class player at a club that has very few of them, and that limits your possibilities. The formation you showed here is pretty reasonable but then we don't have a defensive midfielder for that and our right backs won't offer enough offensively (assuming Rafael's injured all season again and we play Jones/Smalling there).
I can buy that argument completely. My concern (paranoia perhaps?) is that waiting for Carrick to return to full form and fitness makes me nervous. He's 33, the sort of age where recoveries tend to take longer. It brings back the dreaded "three weeks" from return that haunted Gary Neville at a similar age. Darren Fletcher as an alternative perhaps? I just have this feeling that if we get Khedira we still need another midfielder.
Did you not see how much space was left in the middle of midfield against Swansea? They need protection, it doesn't matter if there is two or three - the amount of space that is left in the midfield when playing two energetic box-to-box midfielders isn't ideal at all. Neither Khedira or Herrera would be strong enough positionally to consistently ensure that they are not caught wondering too far forward. Having three centre backs doesn't make your midfield immune to defending.
A diamond wouldn't work, either. At all. Herrera, Khedira, Mata, van Persie and Rooney. There is literally no pace in that at all. The play becomes predictable and we'd struggle to break through.
That aint gonna work. We have too many #10's.
If you get de jong, blind or song you also need another midfielder. You add another player who is not really good enough to start for United. There are too many of those already. The likes of Martinez or the Benders are just out of reach in this window.
so the solution to stabilize the defence is to play with 3 CBs and one DM. bloody hell. Even Mourinho wouldnt play that destructive. Well. maybe he would, but at least he knows how to utilize these kind of formations. Van gaal always used possession focused tactics. If you overload your defence, you´ll end up with possession exclusively in the defence.
Most EPL teams play with one central forward. If 3 Cbs cant handle that (against swansea), there is something wrong with them and the general tactical lineup. Trying to fix it by adding another defensive midfielder will create more problems than it solves. This kind of tactic works with sides, that fight against relegation; sides that just dont want to lose.
so the solution to stabilize the defence is to play with 3 CBs and one DM. bloody hell. Even Mourinho wouldnt play that destructive. Well. maybe he would, but at least he knows how to utilize these kind of formations. Van gaal always used possession focused tactics. If you overload your defence, you´ll end up with possession exclusively in the defence.
Most EPL teams play with one central forward. If 3 Cbs cant handle that (against swansea), there is something wrong with them and the general tactical lineup. Trying to fix it by adding another defensive midfielder will create more problems than it solves. This kind of tactic works with sides, that fight against relegation; sides that just dont want to lose.
But you don't add a defensive midfielder, if three centerbacks can't do their job. You either replace one of them with a DM and adjust the system or you buy a centerback who can do the job required to make it work without another defensive player in the team. Unless of course you want to play boring, counterattacking football in an ultra defensive formation longterm.
But who can we attain that is good enough? Perhaps Rojo will have the capacity to play as the sweeper, moving into midfield with ease as he is fairly comfortable on the ball, but I could see him being used at LWB for a while due to injuries. We can't sign anyone else, Hummels is never happening and Benatia looks very close to Bayern. We will adjust the system, in time, to a 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 which signing Khedira will impact long term, as a trio of Mata-Herrera-Khedira wouldn't be the wisest in a back four.
What wages is he on? It says £120k but it doesn't state if that is before or after tax. As far as I know, him asking for a wage increase was just rumours. It looks like he's just not happy with lack of game time and now with the addition of Kroos. If we're not in for Vidal it would be madness not to sign this guy for £20 million nevermind £8!
......Herrera..Khedria
Di Maria...Mata...Januzaj
..........Rooney/RVP
Herrea.......Khedria.....Mata
Di Maria..Rooney/RVP....Januzaj
As much as I love Mata, its hard to do anything away from 352 while fitting Mata, RVP, Rooney and Januzaj in the same XI.
......Herrera..Khedria
Di Maria...Mata...Januzaj
..........Rooney/RVP
Herrea.......Khedria.....Mata
Di Maria..Rooney/RVP....Januzaj
As much as I love Mata, its hard to do anything away from 352 while fitting Mata, RVP, Rooney and Januzaj in the same XI.
Again, not a force in an attacking sense. Both Khedira's and Herrera's goal scoring records aren't that great.
I'd agree they're both box to box midfielders, but a different breed than a Vidal or Yaya Toure type player.
I used Vidal as an example. My point being that Vidal is a force in the opponents half, where as Khedira isn't at all. His goal scoring record isn't great.
United need a goal scoring midfielder. Someone like Lampard (was), Toure, Vidal, Ramsey. They're the box to box midfielders I'm talking about.
Bother to name anyone we can get then, who is good enough now..After Vidal, Khedira is probably the best out there that we can get, and he's very good, not sure why he's massively underrated on here, baffling.
I dont know what van gaal is planning. If Khedira really doesnt fit into his system, he shouldnt buy him. I dont mind that at all.
Here is what confuses me: Van gaal said, that the current formation is just a temporary solution until he can play a better system (most likely 433). Where are the changes in the squad that allow him to do so? If he already knows that the current players dont fit his idea of football, he should be able to articulate the shortcomings. Its simple logic. Shaw and Rojo are (merely) exact replacements for players that left. They didnt add any new tactical dimension to the squad. Adding another CM (herrera) was long overdue and happened before he started to work with the squad. Van gaal and Woody both knew that they have little time after the worldcup. Still nothing happened and now after losing the first game pressure is on. Van Gaal has/had the idea, that he could convert a couple of average players into world-beater on a different position, but thats just a pipe dream.
So back the Khedira. Van gaal and Woody missed the opportunity to make reasonable long term changes. They were just too laggard. Considering the situation in the market, Khedira is the one available top player, who is not completely overpriced. I know that Herrera is the flavour of the month, but I am not too sure that he is actually any better than Khedira. He might be, but its surely not clean cut. I take him over the likes of de Jong, blind or song any day of the week. If van Gaal decides against him, I am okay with that, but he better starts pulling a rabbit out of his head to justify this decision.
Was there never a German in Uniteds first team? That comes to my mind when I hear about Sami to you. Has Ferguson some issues with us and now that he isnt the boss anymore you want German talent or is it all just coincidence?
Was always interested in this story.
Was always interested in this story.
Not everything is about goals though. Yes scoring goals from midfield is always a plus but a player like Khedira helps so much in attack in the sense that he closes down well high up, wins the ball or starts a counter attack from deep. The runs he makes also helps the team so much because he drags a defender with him and that creates space for a player to move into.
I don't think we need goals from midfield at all. Rooney, Mata and van Persie can probably score 55-60 goals between them and other players will contribute too.
We have one in Mata already, who is capable of 20+ goals per season.
Big fan of Khedira myself, was hoping we'd sign him 4 years ago.
He's an intelligent player, great sense at positioning, tactical awereness, he's got this know-how which make him special DM - rarity player these days.
In Brasil we could see some good attacking play from him as well.
But again, all we can offer nowadays is money and prestige part, which is a bit overrated anyway.
We got no Champions League and we've got a long way to regain our place amongst top european clubs - at least 2 or 3 years.
I am so desperate to sign a proper DM, that I would be happy with getting de Jong on cheap, as I can't see us signing class player like Khedira.
Hope Eddy will prove me wrong.
We had a youth keeper once...Zieler? Otherwise, yeah I think Fergie had something against Germans, probably goes back to WWII.
Didn't Fergie's family fight against the Germans or something? His grandparents I believe.
He said in his autobiography that it was a really bizarre family holiday.
I was imagining something like this if Di Maria was on the cards as well as Khedira. But then you are dropping one of the holy attacking trinity (Roo, RVP, Mata)...
Dropping one of this three attacking players has to happen sooner or later. I hope it happens rather sooner.
I agree. One of them have to be benched or played out of position eventually.
Khedira is not even in Spain right now even if they are playing the Supercup tonight. Right now he is watching his brother's football match in Leipzig.
They haven't even played a game together yet under LVG and the two above me want them dropped soon.
Give it a chance guys...
Give it a chance guys...
Evening standard are reporting that United are leading the chase for Khedira.
Ahhh, but those managers aren't on the caf, so they can't be that good. Seriously, what has he won, a CL and WC medal in the last 12 months. That's nothing. Obviously not good enough for our team.
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