I agree that Rooney is no where near as good as aguero and haven't argued that point, mata for Chelsea playing in his no10 role was sensational and if played there for United he wouldn't be far from silva imho. Pedro is more effective in a team scenario and after playing in big teams and perhaps not being the main star he still showed his quality season after season. KDB is Wolfsburg main player and as such all the play goes through him, when at a bigger team he will see less of he ball and this could affect his contribution. As I say it's all moot points until he signs and has a season in the premiership.
Kevin De Bruyne
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) are here to discuss Amad saving our blushes in a win against Southampton as well as our now annual loss at home to Brighton. They discuss Amorim's post-match comments, revisit how mid-table we may or may not be, and discuss some transfer news.
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I'm not arguing he was a great goal scorer once, but 11/12 is already four seasons ago... I don't think Rooney the striker is still as effective as he used to be (or like you said, needs a while to get going again), hence why I said that for me, the gap in quality up front is certainly there unless he proves otherwise this season.
That's purely speculation and you can't possibly know that, but he was very good for Chelsea yes, I'll give you that. Hasn't been able to reproduce that form at United though.AbusementPark said:
Mata is supposedly so good in his best role, yet managers never play him consistently in this role. Even when he was doing better for Chelsea, they played Oscar centrally more, once they bought him.
Mata is not close to Silva. He's no closer to Silva than Rooney is to Aguero.
The point is that we've no idea how effective Rooney the striker is yet because he's barely played there yet. His past record there is the best thing we can go on and it's a pretty damn good record.
besides, what I quoted said you can't even remember him playing a full season as a striker, and I responded by pointing out he's had 2 full seasons as one, and he was top class for both.
It was that good that Guardiola, who loves to praise Pedro, bought Sanchez and wanted to replace Pedro the following year (which kinda went all wrong once Villa got injured and Fabregas failed to fit in, but the point still stands). I actually like Pedro, he's a wonderful role player, who has great technique and is intelligent and disciplined, so that he executes what the manager wants from him perfectly. But individually? Nope, I don't buy it. Especially in 2010/11, he massively benefited from all the space Messi's and Villa's movement created while Dani Alves ran havoc on the wing and kept the opposing fullback more busy than Pedro himself did. It was a wonderful set-up for Pedro, either making dummy runs for Messi or getting into open space to score/assist himself. It's not comparable to running the show at a 2nd place team in an European top league, embarrassing a club like Bayern on the way and winning the cup with one man of the match performance after the next one.
I haven't seen Depay play for Ajax, no idea how good his season was or if it's comparable to De Bruyne's in a significantly stronger league. Maybe, maybe not, I can't comment on that and it doesn't prove anything in regards to the Pedro - De Bruyne comparison. And again, no idea why you bring stats into the discussion. I don't judge players on stats alone. But De Bruyne's sure as hell make him an incredible effective player, even though he offers a lot more than just stats.
See my response to Revan above for the last part of your post. But yes, if the question is who'd fit better in a team with Iniesta, Xavi and Messi, then I'd probably pick Pedro ahead of De Bruyne for his finishing and off the ball movement. No other team in the world has a comparable set-up, City certainly hasn't, so I don't see the point.
edit: just realised that Depay played for PSV
. See, that's why I don't comment on him, I've no fecking clue about his career so far besides the few games I've seen from him at the World Cup 
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Seems more and more likely that the deal to City is happening. If we really want to get back to the top and need a quality creative, chance creator it would be highly foolish to not hijack this transfer. We can't keep hapring on about how we want to become a major power in world football again and then let the best up and coming players go to our rivals.
I thought that Sanchez replaced Villa, not Pedro. Pedro played the following season as well (IMO, his second best ever season).
I agree that individually Pedro isn't as good as De Bruyne, but then so isn't Muller too. Personally, I rate Muller in top 5 despite that there are tens of players who are better than him individually. I find Pedro quite similar in style to Muller, not the best individually but a fantastic player who is tactically great. Not as good as Muller, but still very good.
As I said before, I would choose De Bruyne instead of him, but Pedro is more a safe bet and in the past he had seasons as good as De Bruyne in last season. A different type of 'good' though.
This is why Pedro exactly fits United under LVG and why any creative players will think twice before agreeing to join United, especially after what happened to ADM.
LVG wants players who are disciplined just like Mourinho.
City on the other hand play with a far more cavalier approach and this generally makes us more entertaining to watch but it does mean that we sometimes concede crazy goals.
There is no right or wrong here and arguably the disciplined approach will bring more trophies.
I am however excited at the prospect of watching Silva, Aguero, Sterling and KDB.
Wolfsburg would be mad to sell him a few hours before their season starts. Even if they get a lot of money... who is on the market to replace their best player? I really can't see that happen except in the case that De Bruyne forces this move by all avaible means. If twitter rumours are true City offers 45 mio? I wouldn't even think about it as Wolfsburg manager. De Bruyne was the best player last season in the league of the Weltmeister. 45 mio? As rich club Wolfsburg doesn't need the money.
IF City signs him for that sum, I would be dissapointed that we didn't even try to steal the transfer. (Generally I wonder why Van Gaal doesn't sign more players from the Bundesliga, a league full of good players which are better and still cheaper than most PL players. I didn't get it for example why we didn't try to sign Max Kruse.)
IF City signs him for that sum, I would be dissapointed that we didn't even try to steal the transfer. (Generally I wonder why Van Gaal doesn't sign more players from the Bundesliga, a league full of good players which are better and still cheaper than most PL players. I didn't get it for example why we didn't try to sign Max Kruse.)
Couldn't agree more with that. I feel people on here are overhyping him way to much since it's official that we are interested in him. He might be a Barca player but he never palyed any significant role for them, he was a small part of large mosaic and he might as well be that for us but he isn't going to revitalise our attack all on his own like some people on here think. He might be fast but he still is dependent on good service like most of our attacking players. Which is one of the main reason that I say we are screaming out for someone de Bruyne and not someone like Pedro. With Memphis we already bought a fast attacking player that isn't much of a creative force and with Pedro we would get someone very similar.
I would love to know the amount of people that watch pedro play week in week out. I watch him play, maybe not every game over the last few years but a good majority of them and I'm very impressed with his team play and work ethic. Yes it does help with the players he has around him being world class but to maintain his position in the team with these players is a credit to him. There's been a few Barcelona fans on here not wanting him to leave as he is a good player for them. It's not overhyping the player it's showing his quality and effectiveness for the team that matters. KDB has had one good season and he is a fantastic player, but to say pedro isn't creative is not a true representation on his play.
I watch a lot of Barca, Real, Bayern and Dortmund games next to ours, so I think I got a fairly good grasp on their squads and most of their players. I'm not even saying he is a bad player but our team is screaming for a player that can drive our attack forward, play the defense splitting pass or be a danger for the opponent goal and Pedro is not that guy. He would be an upgrade over Young, no doubt about that and if we seek to replace Young than by all means go fo rhim but Pedro won't change shit when it comes to our attacking problems. We don't lack good team players with loads of work ethic, we lack game deciding super star talent in this squad.
Creating chances and scoring goals is not City's problem.
They have a poor defence and central midfield for a top 4 club.
I've no qualms with them spending that sort of money on KDB, of course I'd like him at United, but not if it meant we didn't sign Morgan and Bastian.
They have a poor defence and central midfield for a top 4 club.
I've no qualms with them spending that sort of money on KDB, of course I'd like him at United, but not if it meant we didn't sign Morgan and Bastian.
I can understand if people argue that de Bruyne only showed this level of performance over one season and that we can't be sure how he would do at a bigger club where he wouldn't be the star. But aside from that it isn't even close. De Bruyne had 21 assists last season in the league alone. I think the PL record stands at 20 (with four more games to play)? He also scored 10 goals. When I watched Wolfsburg play most attacks ran through him, imho they would not have made top 4 without him. He's precisely the kind of player who can give a blunt attack some edge.
Possession and dominance is nice, but against a well organized defense it still imho all comes down to sparks of brilliance from individual players, who open up the defense with that one key dribble or key pass. De Bruyne (at least the one from last season) is such a player. Pedro on the other hand I see as a player who can be valuable if your team is already performing well but won't be the kind of guy whose individual plays push it from solid to great.
I agree with @Kant-ona though: I can't see Wolfsburg selling him at this point. It's way too late to get a decent replacement (no one who promises the performance level of last year's KdB would join them anyway) and they haven't really bought anyone aside from Kruse, so money shouldn't be an issue for them either (not that it ever was with their buddy Winterkorn being quite generous).
Possession and dominance is nice, but against a well organized defense it still imho all comes down to sparks of brilliance from individual players, who open up the defense with that one key dribble or key pass. De Bruyne (at least the one from last season) is such a player. Pedro on the other hand I see as a player who can be valuable if your team is already performing well but won't be the kind of guy whose individual plays push it from solid to great.
I agree with @Kant-ona though: I can't see Wolfsburg selling him at this point. It's way too late to get a decent replacement (no one who promises the performance level of last year's KdB would join them anyway) and they haven't really bought anyone aside from Kruse, so money shouldn't be an issue for them either (not that it ever was with their buddy Winterkorn being quite generous).
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For what it's worth, kicker are reporting that Klaus Allofs, Wolfsburg' director of football, said that top clubs have turned his head with insane wages. They also report that De Bruyne is interested to move, but would prefer to stay in the Bundesliga. There aren't any quotes backing that up though.
What's really odd, there still aren't any rumours in Germany that the deal with City is close to done or anything like that. I know that's what's reported in England and Belgium, so it could be true of course. Still find it weird, that no German newspaper jumps on the bandwagon.
My personal opinion (and it's really just that, basically a wild guess, that could be totally wrong and isn't based on any facts):
Wolfsburg will turn down City's offer, De Bruyne will stay one more year and get a crazy raise for that year without a contract extension, then he'll sign for Bayern next season. It'll be handled very early, so that Wolfsburg have all summer to find a replacement and invest the money in a smart way instead of now looking for a last minute panic buy.
But then, maybe City just ups the offer to a number that neither de Bruyne nor Wolfsburg can refuse.
What's really odd, there still aren't any rumours in Germany that the deal with City is close to done or anything like that. I know that's what's reported in England and Belgium, so it could be true of course. Still find it weird, that no German newspaper jumps on the bandwagon.
My personal opinion (and it's really just that, basically a wild guess, that could be totally wrong and isn't based on any facts):
Wolfsburg will turn down City's offer, De Bruyne will stay one more year and get a crazy raise for that year without a contract extension, then he'll sign for Bayern next season. It'll be handled very early, so that Wolfsburg have all summer to find a replacement and invest the money in a smart way instead of now looking for a last minute panic buy.
But then, maybe City just ups the offer to a number that neither de Bruyne nor Wolfsburg can refuse.
Hope he doesn't end up at City, just like Silva and Aguero they're too good for such a small club.
But how big would such an have offer be? This season is crucial for Wolfsburg, they have to establish themselves as a top4 team and show something in the CL, so potential signings see them as more than a one hit wonder.
Selling de Bruyne now would greatly jeopardize all that. In a way it's a bit similar to Dortmund turning down €25m for Lewandowski and getting nothing the following summer.
I don't think someone would overpay that much for a player who only had one truly exceptional season thus far.
Insane wages + Bundesliga equates Bayern (though they would probably still pay a lot less than City), so your theory about them buying him makes sense.
Selling de Bruyne now would greatly jeopardize all that. In a way it's a bit similar to Dortmund turning down €25m for Lewandowski and getting nothing the following summer.
I don't think someone would overpay that much for a player who only had one truly exceptional season thus far.
Insane wages + Bundesliga equates Bayern (though they would probably still pay a lot less than City), so your theory about them buying him makes sense.
I think the talent is super evident in De Bruyne, though. It's not just a one season wonder case. We should definitely be willing to match what City purportedly put down.
But let's throw around some numbers. De Bruyne's value in the current (crazy) market is like what? €50-60m? Wolfsburg probably trust him to keep performing well (otherwise they would've cashed in already) so I guess they expect to be able to get something close to that next summer as well. So to convince them of selling a club would probably have to pay that much plus a hefty sum to compensate them for risking their ambitions.
And for that amount you can probably get more proven players.
And for that amount you can probably get more proven players.
'More proven' = who, though? That's the issue many positions are having at the minute - it's the reason why €50m seems somewhat plausible for Otamendi, why Chelsea are linked with Baba Rahman for €25m... There isn't really a berth of top talent players avaliable.
For me the fact that you actually think this might happen this sums up all that is wrong with the BL.
The top clubs in the PL would rather take a lower fee to sell a player abroad than sell at a higher fee to one of their rivals whereas in Germany the clubs who are meant to be competing with Bayern Munich seem happy to feed them their best players at knock down prices.
Well maybe it's my own ignorance then as I haven't seen De Bruyne play week in week out, only a handful of games and he has incredible talent no doubt but in a bigger team will he still be able to show it? I would love him at United but I lean towards Pedro more because I've seen him play for a few seasons and have been impressed by him and he would suit our team better. If we didn't have Mata then I would take KDB for the central role, I'm not no saying Mata is better I'm just saying that we have too many options for central position. If young hadn't signed a new contract then we could have sold him on to make way for him. I do think however we are after someone other than Pedro, Bale perhaps.
Looks like this is happening for City. Shit.
People keep saying that they need a CM more, but the truth is that this guy will improve an attack that is already better than ours. He will be a great signing for them.
People keep saying that they need a CM more, but the truth is that this guy will improve an attack that is already better than ours. He will be a great signing for them.
I doubt it'll be a knock down price. Not sure why people believe we don't pay a lot when we buy within the league. With the exception of the Lewandowski free transfer, we paid a shit load for all signings. No one would have paid as much for Gomez as we did when we signed him from Stuttgart. We paid more than 30m for Neuer, I think by now with added bonuses it's around 35m. That's crazy money for a goalkeeper with only one year left on his contract.
The top clubs in the PL also love to be stupid in the transfermarket and overpay for last minute panic buys. There's a reason why Dortmund had their release clauses set to a very early date, long before the transfer window starts. They knew that selling for less than the maximum you could earn in a last minute transfer isn't a big problem when you have months to find a quality player and pay a fair price instead. There's hardly any relevant transfer activity in Germany in the last few weeks of the transfer window, while that's when English clubs spent the most money over the last few years.
I don't think it's working well for you guys. And I don't think Wolfsburg is better off by selling De Bruyne this season to City and killing their season before it even began than by selling him next year to Bayern with a good replacement available to them. I'm not sure how the Bundesliga would benefit from Wolfsburg instantly being put down again after one good year either. Keeping De Bruyne this season is more important than anything else for their development, worrying about next season surely isn't important right now.
Not sure why we didnt buy KDB if we intended to play depay as a number 10. A position KDB is far superior at while being in the same age bracket.
Their front four is going to be brilliant. I think it may be enough to cover over the cracks in CM and at the back for the PL, but they'll still have issues in the CL.
If City really rate KDB, they should go all out to sign him now. They don't want to do an Arsenal here, who could have signed Suarez with a bigger bid but held back at the end. If KDB has another season like last one, there is very little chance he will move to City, likes of Bayern, Real would be in for him.
Playing KDB means Toure is restricted from his runs forward and loses legs and cover in midfield.
It's ok posting the positions they will play in a front 4 but that doesn't suit the players that play behind.
Still no support from their wingbacks, their central defence is still as bad as it was and why should Toure suddenly become then Toure of old at 32 (?)
It's a bad habit we have, we overanalyse our own side and give the opposition every credit in the world. We obsessed over getting Smalling a defensive partner, replacing Evra / Valencia. Looking for long term replacement for Carrick, no top quality cover for Rooney etc. City have basically the same problems yet they're glossed over with this notion the that front 4 is going sweep all before them.
It's ok posting the positions they will play in a front 4 but that doesn't suit the players that play behind.
Still no support from their wingbacks, their central defence is still as bad as it was and why should Toure suddenly become then Toure of old at 32 (?)
It's a bad habit we have, we overanalyse our own side and give the opposition every credit in the world. We obsessed over getting Smalling a defensive partner, replacing Evra / Valencia. Looking for long term replacement for Carrick, no top quality cover for Rooney etc. City have basically the same problems yet they're glossed over with this notion the that front 4 is going sweep all before them.
The main point is that selling to Bayern strengthens Bayern and weakens Wolfsburg whereas selling to City only weakens Wolfsburg. I also doubt very much that the fee would be as high.
The top PL teams always try to avoid selling to their rivals. It happens but generally under much duress or when a contract is running out.
Unlike the English teams, Bayern and Wolfsburg are somewhat linked. VW boss Winterkorn is a board member at Bayern, and they're a shareholder through Audi. Might like to keep de Bruyne in house, if he's going to leave anyway.
Well shit, that's some bad news.
Read somewhere Gaitan signing is imminent. Woodward hoping to steal their thunder.
Don't tempt fate.
Yeah, but that point makes zero sense. We buy top players anyway. It's not like we don't spend money on players abroad if we can't get someone in the Bundesliga or whatever the underlying notion seems to be in that argument.
We sign the majority of our expensive players abroad anyway. If you look at our squad, you'll realise that quite easily.
Players signed from abroad:
Benatia, Boateng, Rafinha, Bernat, Thiago, Martinez, Ribery, Robben, Costa, Alonso, Vidal
Players signed from Bundesliga clubs:
Neuer, Ulreich, Dante, Kirchhoff, Götze, Rode, Lewandowski
The rest are players that came through our own academy or young talents from lower division clubs.
So what do you think will happen, if Wolfsburg sell De Bruyne to City this season? My guess? They'll fall apart this season and are fecked, while we strengthened with Vidal and Costa. And if we want to buy another top player for big money next season, we'll find one. Wolfsburg doesn't gain anything from selling abroad now without a replacement available to them. The only winner here would be City, while the Bundesliga would suffer heavily because a team that might actually challenge Bayern is gone. Yet according to you, that's good for the league?
I don't believe Wolfsburg are capable of challenging BM with or with KDB.
Just as long as BM are able to cherry pick from their supposed rivals the BL will struggle to have credibility overseas.
Things like the VW/Audio connection don't help the impression that the BL is fixed for BM. This may not be true, of course but perception is everything and the widespread perception is that the BL is not a truly competitive league.
Before you hit back at the PL I know there are only 4 teams really likely to win the title but 4 is a lot better than 1.
So they're not challenging anyway and the 2nd placed club losing the best player in the league to a foreign club has no effect on the league's competitiveness? But Bayern buying the player a year later would ruin the league? That's what you're saying? Well, I can't really do anything against the perception when people convince themselves that the utter nonsense they say is the truth.
There aren't 4 though. And I don't need to hit back at the PL. It doesn't change anything for the Bundesliga. I'm fairly critical regarding the competitiveness in football in general. But I do find the immense hypocrisy from Premier League fans in that regard ridiculous.
Sky doing their thing
You don't think there are 4 teams who can win the Prem. League ? Well 3 of them have won it in the past 3 seasons and Arsenal are very close.
That screen is really too small, should have had a big bigger one.Sky doing their thing
Well no English team has defended their title in what? 6 years now? A Gerrard slip away from having 4 different winners in 4 years.
What I don't understand are people claiming Kane should repeat his breakout year before we spend 50m on him yet KDB is a must have for the same price.
I honestly don't understand this
What I don't understand are people claiming Kane should repeat his breakout year before we spend 50m on him yet KDB is a must have for the same price.
I honestly don't understand this
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