@Buster15 in my time on the forum, you've generally come across as fairly reasonable, but your posts in this thread have been nothing short of idiotic verging on offensive.
Keir Starmer Labour Leader
- Thread starter Damien
- Start date
You really are being tone deaf on this issue.
We need to vote him in and then we can push him into viewing Palestinians as human beings once he's in office.
Please give me an example of this. And if I agree then I will most certainly apologise. Can't be more reasonable than that can I.
The idea that babies, kids, women are underserving of basic power food and water because Hamas committed an atrocity. I’d say that’s idiotic and offensive. Is the 7 day old Palestinian baby that is now dead a sworn enemy?
You win an election in the UK with maybe 13 million votes. And those votes can come from middle class people who rent or own homes and don't really follow foreign affairs. They can also come from the mythical "white working class".
And there is a clear calculation that those pro Palestinian voters will have nowhere else to go, and most are located in safe seats so it doesn't matter if they stay home.
Sorry to be blunt. Nothing will change until the voting system does.
Ok. Thank you for that. Best I explain.
My post was meant as a general statement. That was why it was in the General Forum and not the Current Forum thread specific to Hamas/Israel.
And of course I don't say that a dead 7 year old girl is a sworn enemy. That would be ridiculous.
I the same way I would not say that any of the butchered Israeli children are enemies of Hamas. That too would be ridiculous.
I think you have, or tried to read too much into that post.
So. I have tried to give you an explanation which you may or may not accept.
But I am not going to apologise because to do that would be hypocritical of me. Because I stand by what I have said. And I certainly don't see it as offensive.
If I was fighting in a war against an enemy, any enemy, I would find it offensive if at the same time as people on my side were being killed, we were helping the enemy by providing them with power etc. Power that they would then use against us.
https://skwawkbox.org/2023/10/14/la...ine-demos-warns-members-they-may-be-expelled/
Not sure how reliable this is, but given his party's recent babbling is probably accurate. A 'ban' to attend Palestinian protests for all Labour MPs. Freedom, eh?
That's the end of Starmer's Muslim vote. Abstention here we come. That's 5 Labour voters from my household alone that won't be attending the polls now. Come back soon Tories.
Loves a war crime does Keir. Probably gets off on it.
He's certainly trying to imitate Blair on foreign affairs.
It's a shame his domestic policies are nowhere near as ambitious.
Can you imagine how hollow your life must be when your sole goal is to get elected? Not believing in anything, following the narrative of the day. Truly depressing stuff.
Read reports that labour hq banned any mps or other senior members from attending any of the palestine marches.
It's truly insane. Imagine with every world event thinking "what do I gotta say to win votes". Never mind doing the right thing morally.
It's been the case since the late 70s/80s. Select the best manager to deal with things as they are. Not the the best leader to take us forward.
That's pretty much politicians the world over since the year dot. Even more so when you have to navigate an overwhelmingly hostile right wing press.
Yes, in some ways you have to respect Corbyn for his principles on most things.
Bit snakey on Brexit but broadly he said what he thought regardless of how politically damaging, and Christ it was politically damaging.
Still believe the greatest damage happened when it became a fight of vague soft brexit (corbyn) vs vague hard brexit (may) in 2017, to a fight between remain vs total leave in 2019. Labour was tied in the polls for 2 years till Johnson came in, and then Conservatives shot up and Labour shot down, and that stayed till election day.
Boris became PM in July and consolidated the entire Brexit vote.
Said what he thought, except on the biggest issue of the second election under him, playing a key role in the party getting routed.
The rumours are true.
Maybe I'm reading it too literally, but it says eleceted members are given 'strong advice' not to attend protests and if they do, don't wave a Labour banner cos you 'can't control who you're photographed with'.
Might sound cynical, but last thing Labour needs is having a senior person photographed next to a pro-Hamas banner at an event.
Yes, point being politics is about saying what you need to say, not saying what you don't, and timing what you need to say to change public opinion in favour of your policies.
Spurting out things like 'I will unilaterally disarm our nukes' or 'I need evidence to prove Russia did an attack on British soil' might play well with some, but completely destroyed his credibility. The latter might be sensible policy in normal scenarios but in high intensity political incidents it's damaging for a politician in a way it isn't for someone debating generally.
I’ve been going to pro-Palestine demos since my uni days (17-18 years) and I’m yet to see a pro-Hamas banner at any of them. This isn’t to say you don’t get unsavoury elements at these things.
Although I take your larger point.
Keir believes in universal values. Wants to staves kids both at home and aboard.
Maybe although I do think there is a certain hollowness to most politicians since the 90’s. While I do hate the alien queen I would say Thatcher was the last PM who wanted to change the country(Clearly for the worse).
Everything after has mostly been bureaucrats taking charge of a declining system. Its the Soviet Union without free housing or good movies.
I'd agree with that, though I would argue Blair tried to change the country.
Self-interest may not be new, but corporate might and influence certainly seems to have increased over the years.
Living in a country that gives a shit about its poor, is way more efficiently run and has a community spirit is quite an eye-opener. Social housing for everyone and very low crime too.
Having followed the politics of the UK for a while now and since moving here, my vote would default have gone to labour, but Starmer just keeps finding ways to make himself seem even less and less appealing to vote for. Just when I think the baseline can’t get lower they get their shovels out and send it a few feet further down.
Ann Black's NEC report from conference:
Focus grouping endorsement of war crimes.
Surprised they haven't tried to means test them.
Surprised they haven't tried to means test them.
That's why Blair is his biggest idol.
All his fears about upsetting the daily mail and rest of the right wing press, never mind the Israeli lobby, and it's going to be those on the side of Palestinians who are going to cause him a major headache. Serves him right, I've met many Muslims who've vowed never to vote Labour again.
Could they be any more callous?
The thing is, Labour's policies don't matter. We are supposed to vote for them regardless or else. That's what we are told repeatedly by quite a few labour voters. It doesn't matter that by voting for this deluge of broken pledges we may be legitimising it and sending the message that this is what the Labour party should be like in order to win an election.
I'm probably an idealistic twat, but I believe politics should be more than the Jack Johnson or John Jackson dilemma.
I'm probably an idealistic twat, but I believe politics should be more than the Jack Johnson or John Jackson dilemma.
As I said at the start of the current crisis, public opinion will change as the situation progresses, the more Palestinians the Israelis kill then the more the Palestinians will be seen as victims.
As public opinion changes I suspect Starmer's line will change too. He, and of course his advisors, should have been bright enough to predict this, it's quite depressing.
He should of course be doing the right thing in the first place, but if he is just into ruthless vote chasing at least he should get that right.
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He chased the right wing vote one step too far. If this is to be his undoing then it's almost fitting.
I feel sorry for the Israelis, I feel sorry for the Palestinians and the people in Gaza. Who I don’t feel sorry for is keir Starmer and anyone in his twisted cabinet. I would rather vote for the slugs crawling up the side of my house than for anyone in that party. Labour is as dead as the conservatives and this country has no leader.
The state of this.
It doesn’t matter what he says or pledges now. The fact is that his first statement shows what he really thinks and how he views this (or how he wishes to be perceived as viewing this) so I can’t see how he can go back on that, or how the Muslim population of the UK can think that everything is okay now because he has said something else.