Keir Starmer Labour Leader

@Buster15 in my time on the forum, you've generally come across as fairly reasonable, but your posts in this thread have been nothing short of idiotic verging on offensive.
 
The Corinthian said:
@Buster15 in my time on the forum, you've generally come across as fairly reasonable, but your posts in this thread have been nothing short of idiotic verging on offensive.
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Please give me an example of this. And if I agree then I will most certainly apologise. Can't be more reasonable than that can I.
 
Buster15 said:
Please give me an example of this. And if I agree then I will most certainly apologise. Can't be more reasonable than that can I.
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Buster15 said:
I don't understand the logic that says you should provide your enemy with power, food and water.
They are your sworn enemy who has just carried out attacks on your people killing many hundreds of them and doing unspeakable things to them.
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The idea that babies, kids, women are underserving of basic power food and water because Hamas committed an atrocity. I’d say that’s idiotic and offensive. Is the 7 day old Palestinian baby that is now dead a sworn enemy?
 
Pintu said:
That should be direkt at Starmer who risks losing a big proportion of Labor’s “pro Palestinian” voters over these comments.
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You win an election in the UK with maybe 13 million votes. And those votes can come from middle class people who rent or own homes and don't really follow foreign affairs. They can also come from the mythical "white working class".

And there is a clear calculation that those pro Palestinian voters will have nowhere else to go, and most are located in safe seats so it doesn't matter if they stay home.

Sorry to be blunt. Nothing will change until the voting system does.
 
The Corinthian said:
The idea that babies, kids, women are underserving of basic power food and water because Hamas committed an atrocity. I’d say that’s idiotic and offensive. Is the 7 day old Palestinian baby that is now dead a sworn enemy?
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Ok. Thank you for that. Best I explain.
My post was meant as a general statement. That was why it was in the General Forum and not the Current Forum thread specific to Hamas/Israel.
And of course I don't say that a dead 7 year old girl is a sworn enemy. That would be ridiculous.
I the same way I would not say that any of the butchered Israeli children are enemies of Hamas. That too would be ridiculous.

I think you have, or tried to read too much into that post.

So. I have tried to give you an explanation which you may or may not accept.
But I am not going to apologise because to do that would be hypocritical of me. Because I stand by what I have said. And I certainly don't see it as offensive.
If I was fighting in a war against an enemy, any enemy, I would find it offensive if at the same time as people on my side were being killed, we were helping the enemy by providing them with power etc. Power that they would then use against us.
 
Dobba said:
We need to vote him in and then we can push him into viewing Palestinians as human beings once he's in office.
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https://skwawkbox.org/2023/10/14/la...ine-demos-warns-members-they-may-be-expelled/

Not sure how reliable this is, but given his party's recent babbling is probably accurate. A 'ban' to attend Palestinian protests for all Labour MPs. Freedom, eh?

That's the end of Starmer's Muslim vote. Abstention here we come. That's 5 Labour voters from my household alone that won't be attending the polls now. Come back soon Tories.
 
Fluctuation0161 said:
He's certainly trying to imitate Blair on foreign affairs.

It's a shame his domestic policies are nowhere near as ambitious.
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Can you imagine how hollow your life must be when your sole goal is to get elected? Not believing in anything, following the narrative of the day. Truly depressing stuff.
 
Read reports that labour hq banned any mps or other senior members from attending any of the palestine marches.
 
Semper Fudge said:
Can you imagine how hollow your life must be when your sole goal is to get elected? Not believing in anything, following the narrative of the day. Truly depressing stuff.
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It's truly insane. Imagine with every world event thinking "what do I gotta say to win votes". Never mind doing the right thing morally.
 
Semper Fudge said:
Can you imagine how hollow your life must be when your sole goal is to get elected? Not believing in anything, following the narrative of the day. Truly depressing stuff.
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It's been the case since the late 70s/80s. Select the best manager to deal with things as they are. Not the the best leader to take us forward.
 
VorZakone said:
It's truly insane. Imagine with every world event thinking "what do I gotta say to win votes". Never mind doing the right thing morally.
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That's pretty much politicians the world over since the year dot. Even more so when you have to navigate an overwhelmingly hostile right wing press.
 
Jippy said:
That's pretty much politicians the world over since the year dot. Even more so when you have to navigate an overwhelmingly hostile right wing press.
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Yes, in some ways you have to respect Corbyn for his principles on most things.

Bit snakey on Brexit but broadly he said what he thought regardless of how politically damaging, and Christ it was politically damaging.
 
Drainy said:
Yes, in some ways you have to respect Corbyn for his principles on most things.

Bit snakey on Brexit but broadly he said what he thought regardless of how politically damaging, and Christ it was politically damaging.
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Still believe the greatest damage happened when it became a fight of vague soft brexit (corbyn) vs vague hard brexit (may) in 2017, to a fight between remain vs total leave in 2019. Labour was tied in the polls for 2 years till Johnson came in, and then Conservatives shot up and Labour shot down, and that stayed till election day.

Boris became PM in July and consolidated the entire Brexit vote.
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Drainy said:
Yes, in some ways you have to respect Corbyn for his principles on most things.

Bit snakey on Brexit but broadly he said what he thought regardless of how politically damaging, and Christ it was politically damaging.
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Said what he thought, except on the biggest issue of the second election under him, playing a key role in the party getting routed.
 
The Corinthian said:
The rumours are true.

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Maybe I'm reading it too literally, but it says eleceted members are given 'strong advice' not to attend protests and if they do, don't wave a Labour banner cos you 'can't control who you're photographed with'.

Might sound cynical, but last thing Labour needs is having a senior person photographed next to a pro-Hamas banner at an event.
 
Jippy said:
Said what he thought, except on the biggest issue of the second election under him, playing a key role in the party getting routed.
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Yes, point being politics is about saying what you need to say, not saying what you don't, and timing what you need to say to change public opinion in favour of your policies.

Spurting out things like 'I will unilaterally disarm our nukes' or 'I need evidence to prove Russia did an attack on British soil' might play well with some, but completely destroyed his credibility. The latter might be sensible policy in normal scenarios but in high intensity political incidents it's damaging for a politician in a way it isn't for someone debating generally.
 
Jippy said:
Maybe I'm reading it too literally, but it says eleceted members are given 'strong advice' not to attend protests and if they do, don't wave a Labour banner cos you 'can't control who you're photographed with'.

Might sound cynical, but last thing Labour needs is having a senior person photographed next to a pro-Hamas banner at an event.
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I’ve been going to pro-Palestine demos since my uni days (17-18 years) and I’m yet to see a pro-Hamas banner at any of them. This isn’t to say you don’t get unsavoury elements at these things.

Although I take your larger point.
 
Semper Fudge said:


Loves a war crime does Keir. Probably gets off on it.
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Keir believes in universal values. Wants to staves kids both at home and aboard.

Jippy said:
That's pretty much politicians the world over since the year dot. Even more so when you have to navigate an overwhelmingly hostile right wing press.
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Maybe although I do think there is a certain hollowness to most politicians since the 90’s. While I do hate the alien queen I would say Thatcher was the last PM who wanted to change the country(Clearly for the worse).

Everything after has mostly been bureaucrats taking charge of a declining system. Its the Soviet Union without free housing or good movies.
 
Sweet Square said:
Maybe although I do think there is a certain hollowness to most politicians since the 90’s. While I do hate the alien queen I would say Thatcher was the last PM who wanted to change the country(Clearly for the worse).

Everything after has mostly been bureaucrats taking charge of a declining system. Its the Soviet Union without free housing or good movies.
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I'd agree with that, though I would argue Blair tried to change the country.

Self-interest may not be new, but corporate might and influence certainly seems to have increased over the years.

Living in a country that gives a shit about its poor, is way more efficiently run and has a community spirit is quite an eye-opener. Social housing for everyone and very low crime too.
 
Having followed the politics of the UK for a while now and since moving here, my vote would default have gone to labour, but Starmer just keeps finding ways to make himself seem even less and less appealing to vote for. Just when I think the baseline can’t get lower they get their shovels out and send it a few feet further down.
 
Ann Black's NEC report from conference:

NEC at Conference, Liverpool, 7/11 October 2023
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The horrors unfolding in the Middle East overshadowed all else and in comparison internal party manoeuvrings seem insignificant, whether points of order about motions or the “Moderates” gloating over defeats for the “Hard Left”. Nevertheless for the record I have included notes of NEC meetings alongside some overall impressions. Attached are reports from the women’s conference arrangements committee (here), results of women’s committee elections (here) and conference arrangements committee reports (CAC 1, CAC 1 Addendum, CAC 2, CAC 2 Addendum, CAC 3 and CAC 4). These contain all the motions, composites and results of card votes and elections to internal committees. As always I am keen to hear feedback from delegates, visitors and members watching from home, and what the next steps should be.

National Women’s Conference, 7 October 2023

The week opened with the national women’s conference. After a standalone conference in 2019 and online-only events during Covid this returned to its former position as a curtain-raiser for annual conference. Members were not happy about this, and I have suggested a meeting between the chair Ruth Hayes and Angela Eagle, who chairs the NEC’s equalities committee, with the aim of strengthening links between the women’s organisation and the NEC. In elections for the constituency places on the national women’s committee the six “Moderates” swept the board. What difference this will make is hard to tell, as no meetings have yet been scheduled.

On the conference floor many speakers shared their personal stories, and delegates voted to send motions on violence against women and girls and on equal pay to annual conference For me the highlight was hearing Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe in conversation with Lisa Nandy. She shared a cell in Evin jail with Nobel prizewinner Narges Mohammadi, and though now free herself she continues to work for all those still unjustly imprisoned.

NEC Meeting, 7 October 2023

This was a short meeting as all the detailed work on rule changes had been done in September (see https://www.annblack.co.uk/nec-meeting-26-september-2023/).

One member asked about rumours that the NEC officers had over-ruled the conference arrangements committee (CAC) with respect to certain motions. They argued that this was unprecedented and undermined the CAC’s impartiality. The general secretary explained that the NEC had a duty to intervene when the letter or the spirit of the rules were in jeopardy.

As it happens, my CLP Oxford East submitted one of the NHS motions, based on the Socialist Health Association model. Initially the CAC ruled it out on the grounds that it concerned an organisational matter, which I took as relating to the underlined sentence:

The next Labour government will ban political donations from private healthcare corporations, their lobbyists, or those invested in private healthcare corporations. Labour and Labour MPs will not accept such donations.

It is true that the NEC’s business board decides on whether donations are acceptable, but at the 2022 conference a motion was accepted and carried which included this:

Conference resolves Labour must … not accept donations from companies interested in outsourcing NHS functions

Oxford East therefore appealed on the grounds of consistency. I expected to lose and was pleasantly surprised when our motion was accepted. However, I then discovered that motions on the NHS were split into two separate categories for the priorities ballot which decides topics for debate Five near-identical motions were classified as An NHS Fit for the Future, and another 14 were lumped together under Health Services and Funding, including ours, and also this from Redditch which doesn’t mention money at all:

Conference is concerned at the withdrawal of local health services and lack of provision, and wish to introduce accountable elected local people with voting rights in the NHS Trust and ICB's in order to stand up for the wishes of local people.

and this from Harborough, Oadby & Wigton which has no relation to the SHA model either:

The NHS is at the heart of this party and our country. The Labour Party will invest in the future of our NHS, but should extend this to ensuring NHS staff are given a fair deal at work. The parking charges should be exempt for all NHS staff.

It seems that initially the CAC allocated all motions on the NHS to a single category. The first five CLPs then argued that they wanted their own grouping, which indicates that they not only knew about their own motion but about the others as well, information not publicly available. Indeed I didn’t know that CLPs could appeal against classification as well as rejection. As I understand it the NEC supported them and over-ruled the CAC. There was a separate issue around whether a motion on public ownership should have been moved to the energy grouping, but I know less about that.

Despite assurances that the NEC officers had made a limited one-off intervention, this did seem to enter new territory. Formerly all motions on a subject area would be placed in a single group and, if there were different views, two or more composites could emerge. The leadership would argue against those they did not agree with, and ignore them if conference voted for them anyway. I would not want a situation where motions are grouped into, for instance, Education (helpful) and Education (unhelpful and everything else). New Labour never went that far, and even on Iraq different views could be, and were, debated.

Annual Conference 8/11 October 2023

Most important was whether Labour, and Keir Starmer, were seen as ready for government, able to meet all challenges at home and abroad. In this I think the conference succeeded. Victory in the Rutherglen & Hamilton West by-election gave the best possible start, and Johanna Baxter as chair led the wave of positivity and enthusiasm. Shadow cabinet members are gaining in confidence and profile, with enthusiastic receptions for Angela Rayner, Rachel Reeves, Lisa Nandy and others. As in the run-up to 1997 most members are willing to do whatever is necessary to win, and are beginning to believe that we can win. Record income from stalls and fringes suggested that businesses share that view, and Mark Carney, former governor of the Bank of England, has publicly endorsed Rachel Reeves as chancellor.

As expected all the NEC’s constitutional amendments were endorsed, with 65% of CLPs and 52% of affiliates supporting new rules for CLPs, and 81% of CLPs and 54% of affiliates favouring restriction of motions to “contemporary” issues and 65% of CLPs and 52% of affiliates supporting new rules for CLPs. The low trade union vote surprised me as they, unlike CLP representatives, were fully consulted in advance. There were no constitutional amendments from CLPs because the 2022 conference changed the rules and they again have to wait a year during which the NEC is supposed to reflect on them. Those submitted in 2023 will be discussed in 2024.

The national policy forum report was carried with 91% of CLPs and 69% of affiliates in favour. As this is now the settled basis for the manifesto, all policy motions would be referred to the next cycle of policy-making which will begin after the general election.

Keir Starmer gave his best speech yet, and keen listeners may have noticed the B-word in suggesting that the Tories were wrong when “they told you – to your face – that Brexit would only bring benefits to your business”. The security breach was alarming, and though he turned it to his advantage, it could have been serious. In the New Labour years conference had airport-style security, and small objects – apples, boiled sweets – were confiscated in case they were thrown. There were also concerns about a near-accident to a wheelchair user leaving the stage and I hope there will be a full debrief with Disability Labour.

Otherwise everything ran like clockwork. Angela Rayner provided welcome reassurance on employment rights, but policy gaps included public sector pay, resolving industrial action, changes to universal credit and, notably, funding social care. Much was said about valuing and paying care workers properly, all of which I support because I recognise the skills involved, but full-time live-in carers can cost as much as £15,000 a month. Even cashing in the parental home only covers a couple of years. I understand the need to avoid giving hostages to fortune, but taxing non-doms and charging VAT on private school fees will only go so far, and growing the economy while maintaining sustainability will take time.

Outside the main hall I went to the general secretary’s session with constituency secretaries, now a regular feature and much appreciated. I also spoke on electoral reform at a LabourList rally (see notes at the end).

NEC Meeting, 10 October 2023

This was the usual handover meeting, where the NEC welcomes new members and thanks those who are leaving. James Asser was elected as chair and Ellie Reeves as vice-chair, a position she previously held in 2017/2018. I wish them well. The NEC also thanked all the staff who had done so much to make the week a success. After the meeting closed flowers were presented to Johanna as chair, and to retiring members.

Postscript

As I left Liverpool I felt that as in 1997 the party has moved on to a new and younger generation of activists, candidates and representatives, and this is healthy and a positive sign for the future. But back then older members, resistant to Tony Blair’s changes, just tended to stay away from set-piece speeches and events. Now more of them are outside the party altogether, and not always through choice. I heard of an 80-year-old, expelled for mistakenly sympathising with an organisation before it was proscribed, and met a dedicated trade unionist and former friend who was more loyal to the party than they were to him. I hope that at some point factionalism will diminish, and they can come in from the cold.

As usual please feel free to circulate and/or post online, and contact me at annblack50@btinternet.com / 07956-637958. Previous reports are at www.annblack.co.uk

LabourList speech, October 2023

Suggested theme: one specific thing you'd really like to be different in Britain in 2030 after 5 years of Labour government.

Hello, I’m Ann Black. I’m in my 21st year on the NEC, ten years in government, ten years in opposition, and I can tell you that government is always better. During that time I’ve been called Hard Left, a Blairite stooge, and everything in between.

I’d like a lot of things: properly funded social care before I’m as old as my mother; ending the two-child benefit cap; and stop punishing people who happen to be unemployed or fleeing war or persecution.

To get all these things we not only need to elect a Labour government – which is not a done deal – we need to keep Labour in government.

Five years is just the start, and we cannot risk the most vicious rightwing Tory party in living memory getting back and unpicking all our work all over again.

That means electoral reform as a first term priority. If we’d had proportional representation in 1992 Neil Kinnock would have been prime minister and the railways would never have been privatised. If we’d had PR in 2010 we could have avoided the pain of austerity. If we’d had PR in 2015 the divisive Brexit vote and everything that followed might never have happened.

The late great Robin Cook said that parties in power never change the system because they think they don’t need to.* And when they lose, they have no power to change it. We should have learned that lesson after 1997 – let’s not make the same mistake again.

Yesterday conference agreed the NPF report which states that flaws in the current voting system contribute to the distrust and alienation which we see in politics.

The Scottish and Welsh parliaments have been elected by proportional systems from the start. The sky hasn’t fallen in, they still have constituency links, and they have stable government. Let’s learn from them and from our past failures, let’s change British politics, put an end to wrecking Tory governments, and make first-past-the-post history.

* Robin Cook, May 2005, a month before he died: "My nightmare is that we will have been 12 years in office, with the ability to reform the electoral system, and will fail to do so until we are back in opposition, in perhaps a decade of Conservative government, regretting that we left in place the electoral system that allowed Conservative governments on a minority vote.”
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All his fears about upsetting the daily mail and rest of the right wing press, never mind the Israeli lobby, and it's going to be those on the side of Palestinians who are going to cause him a major headache. Serves him right, I've met many Muslims who've vowed never to vote Labour again.
 
The thing is, Labour's policies don't matter. We are supposed to vote for them regardless or else. That's what we are told repeatedly by quite a few labour voters. It doesn't matter that by voting for this deluge of broken pledges we may be legitimising it and sending the message that this is what the Labour party should be like in order to win an election.

I'm probably an idealistic twat, but I believe politics should be more than the Jack Johnson or John Jackson dilemma.
 
The Corinthian said:
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As I said at the start of the current crisis, public opinion will change as the situation progresses, the more Palestinians the Israelis kill then the more the Palestinians will be seen as victims.

As public opinion changes I suspect Starmer's line will change too. He, and of course his advisors, should have been bright enough to predict this, it's quite depressing.

He should of course be doing the right thing in the first place, but if he is just into ruthless vote chasing at least he should get that right.
 
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I feel sorry for the Israelis, I feel sorry for the Palestinians and the people in Gaza. Who I don’t feel sorry for is keir Starmer and anyone in his twisted cabinet. I would rather vote for the slugs crawling up the side of my house than for anyone in that party. Labour is as dead as the conservatives and this country has no leader.
 
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