Keir Starmer Labour Leader

The Boy said:
There are lot's of figures bandied about, but according to the UN, 40% of Gaza's population is 15 or under, maybe some of the older ones have be encouraged to join Hamas many I imagine haven't. But cutting of all fuel, water and food is inhumane in any circumstance. Think of new borns in incubators, people in hospitals, kids trying to study for school.

Gaza is approximately the size of the Isle of White, but with a population of 2.3 million, no one can leave, they are trapped and when Israel told them to leave through the one open route to Egypt, they then bombed it three times in following 24 hours.

In my mind there can be no moral or ethical reason to punish (to the extreme), the entire population and put all their lives at risk. Maybe if they hadn't been so hard on Gaza in the first place Hamas wouldn't have had so much support.

The attack on Israel was, in any right minded person's opinion, horrifying but the response is worse, which is exactly what Hamas and Iran are after.
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You make a very fair point. I actually have relatives in Israel. Not sure how many of those who responded angrily to my original post. But no matter.
And when I made the this same point, they responded by telling me that if you do those things, you do them for the terrorists as well who are hiding behind human shields in Gaza.
They say that the situation is very simple.
Hand back each and every one of the hostages and Israel will respond by restoring power etc.
Seems a perfectly reasonable position for the government to take, considering its number one priority is to the safety of its own citizens.
 
golden_blunder said:
Yes but dropping concrete buildings on sleeping families is not the answer, or denying medical aid and water.
please don’t misunderstand me, I was repulsed by what happened in Israel, again innocent people being made targets and I somewhat understand the emotional response by them. But the government of both sides need to earn their dues now, not for innocent people to continue to pay the price for governments unable to reach agreements or even talk to each other or renege on deals
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All perfectly understandable.
But who started firing rockets into Israel towns and cities killing well over 1,000 innocent people.
Hamas effectively declared war on Israel.
A war they knew that they could not hope to win.
And much as I hate what has happened, war is messy. And Hamas don't give a sh1t about the Palestinian people.
 
11101 said:
It makes sense when you're a country whose existence is under threat. If let's say Germany attacked us again you would absolutely expect us to destroy everything and anything we could to defend ourselves. Israel see themselves as under threat. Whether they are is another question. No doubt Hamas wants to eradicate them, but this is a virtual Western nation vs little more than sticks and stones.
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Sticks and stones that has killed over 1000 including women and children and, if we are to believe, even babies.
 
Buster15 said:
Sticks and stones that has killed over 1000 including women and children and, if we are to believe, even babies.
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Well relatively. We all know what Hamas would do if they had the firepower of Israel.
 
Fingeredmouse said:
It's easy for me to say what Buster? That I'm surprised that a poster who I certainly don't always agree with but who I would generally characterise as a well meaning person who attempts to post in a considered manner would post what you did?

I made no comment on the feelings of the Israeli people but rather on my surprise given the position you took which is that you apparently don't understand what people might have an issue with regarding the entire Gaza strip and it's population being deprived of basic amenities for life and left trapped to suffer and, in many cases, die. I struggle to believe that you don't understand, although you posting in this thread that the positions of Israel and Gaza are in anyway analogous to Germany and our Islands in the Second World War perhaps suggests that, improbable though it seems, maybe you don't.

Am I to not be shocked that you seem to consider the Geneva convention to be inappropriate, or that you don't understand the unique nature of Gaza and the fact that it is in the position in the first place to have it's utilities completing knocked out, and all escape routes blocked, by an encircling state is somewhat egregious? If you follow the logic of your initial post and subsequent replies, it's hard not to conclude, leaving aside the very particular aspects of Gaza and this whole long running horror show of a situation, that you think targeting civilian populations is acceptable and that is, as I said in my reply, genuinely shocking to me. I can't believe it and can only assume, and hope, that your emotions are running high due to the terrible current events.
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Appreciate your response which I have read and can fully understand.
As I have mentioned elsewhere, I have relatives in Israel.
And having spoken to them, I was influenced by what they had to say from their first hand perspective.
They are the ones being attacked, while we are not.
And therefore it is easy for people here to take a totally different view.
 
Buster15 said:
All perfectly understandable.
But who started firing rockets into Israel towns and cities killing well over 1,000 innocent people.
Hamas effectively declared war on Israel.
A war they knew that they could not hope to win.
And much as I hate what has happened, war is messy. And Hamas don't give a sh1t about the Palestinian people.
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Exactly. Israel are ploughing straight into what they were expected to do.
 
Fluctuation0161 said:
You have a strange take on this. Are you confused between the fact that Hamas are a separate entity to the Palestinian people?

Your Nazi analogy does not work. It would be more akin to the UK cutting off power, water and food for the whole of the population of Ireland because the IRA bombed the UK. Hamas are not the government.
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Why is it strange just because it is different to yours.
I am perfectly well aware of what Hamas is and don't need being told.
 
Buster15 said:
All perfectly understandable.
But who started firing rockets into Israel towns and cities killing well over 1,000 innocent people.
Hamas effectively declared war on Israel.
A war they knew that they could not hope to win.
And much as I hate what has happened, war is messy. And Hamas don't give a sh1t about the Palestinian people.
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You can't argue they started first argument mate. IDF have killed thousands of Palestinians in the past years
 
Buster15 said:
You make a very fair point. I actually have relatives in Israel. Not sure how many of those who responded angrily to my original post. But no matter.
And when I made the this same point, they responded by telling me that if you do those things, you do them for the terrorists as well who are hiding behind human shields in Gaza.
They say that the situation is very simple.
Hand back each and every one of the hostages and Israel will respond by restoring power etc.
Seems a perfectly reasonable position for the government to take, considering its number one priority is to the safety of its own citizens.
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There’s a poster on here who lives in Israel, as does many of his family. He has some great posts that I feel highlights some of the problems with your posts and opinions on this topic. Scholesythewise I think his name is.

Having said that I hope your relatives are safe!
 
I'll vote Labour in the by-election next week, based purely on the local candidates. I won't rule out voting for Labour in the general election but Starmer's politics hasn't appealed to me.
 
reelworld said:
You can't argue they started first argument mate. IDF have killed thousands of Palestinians in the past years
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Remember that while the world is focusing on this latest series of attacks, Hamas has been firing rockets into Israel for a very long time. And has killed thousands of Israelis.

But this time, they have gone too far and will suffer the consequences. Israelis are sick and fed up of the ongoing attacks.
I do feel for the many innocent Palestinians.
But as I have said, if it is your people who are being killed and maimed, I can well understand why the government has done what it has done. And that remains my view.
 
Buster15 said:
Appreciate your response which I have read and can fully understand.
As I have mentioned elsewhere, I have relatives in Israel.
And having spoken to them, I was influenced by what they had to say from their first hand perspective.
They are the ones being attacked, while we are not.
And therefore it is easy for people here to take a totally different view.
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I get that, hence my final line about emotional response and the fact that you have family in Israel and have spoken to them explains a lot. It is of course, easy for those of us not caught in the midst of this catastrophe to state opinions whilst not being in Israel - just as it is easy for us to state opinions about what happens to the people of Gaza whilst not being there.

It is entirely understandable that people caught in this nightmare will wish for extreme tactics, and even revenge. That doesn't make it ok however and following such logic is what has lead, and will continue to lead, to the greatest horrors that this World sees. People in terrible situations feel justified in doing terrible things and that's precisely why international law and the Geneva convention are needed.

I'm quite sure if you were to have conversations with Palestinians in Gaza first hand, whether they were family or not, there's a decent chance that they also would have views about what should be done or might be acceptable or necessary courses of action and that may equally fuel your emotion and colour your views. I'm sure that I don't have to outline what might colour those views of Gaza natives.
 
Drainy said:
Who started it first is certainly something people can argue about
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As I grew to adulthood in Britain in the latter part of the 20th Century, I believed the following, (as did the majority of my fellow Britain's) and accepted it as being true;

In 1948 the League of Nations (forerunner to UN) formally accepted the statehood of Israel with identified boundaries (West of the River Jordan) from within lands that collectively been referred to as the territory of Palestine. This was to define a homeland for Jewish people who had survived the holocaust and/or who became stateless. Over time Jewish people living in other countries also returned to what was now the state of Israel.

The USA was the first individual country to recognise Israel as a legitimate state.

At this time the majority of the surrounding Arab countries did not recognise the state of Israel and they also threatened to drive the Jewish population into the sea. This was presented to the world at the time, as to be actions intended to stand up for the people residing in the Arab designated areas with the Palestine Territory. many who were ultimately displaced.
This process of subjecting Israel to constant threat was followed by a series of wars over the last quarter of the 20th century and now into the 21st Century. Resulting from these wars Israel at various times occupied lands surrounding it, in Egypt (Sini), in Syria (Golan heights) and for a time in Lebanon, they also remained in the West bank (illegally) and eventually identified the Gaza strip as a place for those Palestinians who did not want to live in Israel.
For over 50 years various attempts at obtaining a lasting peace, based on a two state solution, has always floundered, it's never been clear as to why, but it seems to many people (outside this conflict) that the neither side can agree on the final state boundaries, and although many Arab states have now made agreements with Israel that they will not seek to drive the Jewish people into the sea, some organisations such as Hamas still regard this as the only victory they can accept.

It could be said in the present conflict that Hamas has taken over 100 Israeli's and 2 million Palestinians hostage.
 
Drainy said:
He refused to accept a report into antisemitism in the Labour Party under his leadership, saying it was being blown out of proportion by the media.

Starmer apparently told him he was to accept the findings, he didn't so got the boot.
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"A report" being the findings of the Equalities and Human Rights Commission, remember,
 
nickm said:
My point is there's far too much of this wild talk around at the moment, of "collective punishment" and "war crimes" and "genocide" and "2 million potential dead". All this overblown rhetoric seems to do is apparently deny Israel's right to defend itself. Of course Israel should act in a careful measured proportionate, rational way, and by god I hope they do, but just because of the way Hamas is embedded in Gaza, does not by itself remove Israel's right to go after its enemy.
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Genocide and 2 million potential dead is ridiculous hyperbole.

Collective punishment and war crimes are not, when they are being quite explicit about shutting off water, food, fuel and medicines from getting into the strip and have bombed the one road leading to an exit not controlled by them, rendering it essentially unusable at present.

You can think that this approach is justified. You can think there is no other way. You can think the Palestinians deserve it. You can think all of them together. But those are the very definitions of collective punishment and war crimes. That is not overblown rhetoric.
 
Ekkie Thump said:
The things you don't see are endless:
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Not really, I think Israel has to be propotionate and rational. I don't honestly know if cutting off electricity is a "war crime" or not, opinions are divided on that from what I see, but given they have something like 150 hostages there, and that is the stated reason why they are doing it, they are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Edit: I should add that if it *IS* a potential war crime by the agreements Israel has signed up to, then Israel should of course not be doing it, or at least not in this way.
 
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nickm said:
Not really, I think Israel has to be propotionate and rational. I don't honestly know if cutting off electricity is a "war crime" or not, opinions are divided on that from what I see, but given they have something like 150 hostages there, and that is the stated reason why they are doing it, they are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Edit: I should add that if it *IS* a potential war crime by the agreements Israel has signed up to, then Israel should of course not be doing it, or at least not in this way.
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It's a war crime.

It's not really arguable. Read this article: https://www.justsecurity.org/89403/the-siege-of-gaza-and-the-starvation-war-crime/

"This order commands the starvation of civilians as a method of warfare, which is a violation of international humanitarian law and a war crime (ICC Statute, article 8(2)(b)(xxv)). It may also satisfy the legal threshold for the crime against humanity of inhumane acts (7(1)(K)) and, depending on what happens from here, other crimes against humanity, such as those relating to killing (murder and extermination) (7(1)(a-b))."
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
I thought they were the government of Gaza after they were voted in, in 2006?
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They were voted in across the whole of Palestine back then, Fatah didn't accept the result (from memory), the two clashed, Hamas won in Gaza but not the WB and the rest is history.

17 years later and with no no elections, difficult to paint them as the valid representative of the Palestinians/ Gazans, anymore so than if Blair, Merkel, Bush and Chirac suddenly became leaders of their countries tomorrow.
 
Fingeredmouse said:
I get that, hence my final line about emotional response and the fact that you have family in Israel and have spoken to them explains a lot. It is of course, easy for those of us not caught in the midst of this catastrophe to state opinions whilst not being in Israel - just as it is easy for us to state opinions about what happens to the people of Gaza whilst not being there.

It is entirely understandable that people caught in this nightmare will wish for extreme tactics, and even revenge. That doesn't make it ok however and following such logic is what has lead, and will continue to lead, to the greatest horrors that this World sees. People in terrible situations feel justified in doing terrible things and that's precisely why international law and the Geneva convention are needed.

I'm quite sure if you were to have conversations with Palestinians in Gaza first hand, whether they were family or not, there's a decent chance that they also would have views about what should be done or might be acceptable or necessary courses of action and that may equally fuel your emotion and colour your views. I'm sure that I don't have to outline what might colour those views of Gaza natives.
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A very reasonable, measured and well balanced comment.
And I take your point, as you have mine.
We are all entitled to express our views and for me, I always try to understand what is being said.

War is by definition an appalling indictment of human failings.
And there seem to be more of them instead of less.
 
nickm said:
Not really, I think Israel has to be propotionate and rational. I don't honestly know if cutting off electricity is a "war crime" or not, opinions are divided on that from what I see, but given they have something like 150 hostages there, and that is the stated reason why they are doing it, they are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Edit: I should add that if it *IS* a potential war crime by the agreements Israel has signed up to, then Israel should of course not be doing it, or at least not in this way.
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You gotta remember Israel has like 1100 Palestinians in "administrative detention" which basically means jailing them without a trial, so those are effectively hostages to Palestinian leaders.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middl...stages-palestinians-israeli-jails-2023-10-09/

Should add I don't know if the Palestinians traded for Israelis would be in administrative detention, or Palestinians who have been convicted (which I think would be by the Israeli military court system).

It really is a horrible quagmire. The more you know, the less peace seems possible any time soon. I know much more about Israeli politics than Palestine (I'm a Jew), and Israel seems to be further from peace and only moving away from it, and whereas Israel could once upon a time negotiate with the PLO (who probably never had the close to full support or control of their population like Israel had - see the ability to dismantle and remove Israeli settlers in Gaza in 05, which never got close to a civil war - to enforce a peace deal), now they'd have to negotiate with at least Hamas and Fatah barring a unity government somehow being formed in Palestine. There are also way more settlements in the West Bank and settlers are much, much more politically powerful than they were 20 years ago.

As a disclaimer, I don't identify as an anti-zionist or zionist. I guess the truth is I can't let go of an obsolete idea of a 2 state solution because I'm a Jew in my late 30s who remembers when peace seemed possible in the late 90s/early 2000's and these things are hard to let go. That is far less less possible due to settlements, though a one state solution - now preferred by many people smarter and more informed than me I should add - also seems impossible and just isn't ingrained in me from learning about it my whole life, though it's worth reading about.

A horrible fecking week. This time it's both sides suffering.
 
africanspur said:
They were voted in across the whole of Palestine back then, Fatah didn't accept the result (from memory), the two clashed, Hamas won in Gaza but not the WB and the rest is history.

17 years later and with no no elections, difficult to paint them as the valid representative of the Palestinians/ Gazans, anymore so than if Blair, Merkel, Bush and Chirac suddenly became leaders of their countries tomorrow.
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The elections you refer to happend in 2006, there were widespread intimidations by Hamas, making the credibility of the vote doubtful… But Fatah did accept the results. Abbas (of Fatah) had been elected president a year earlier… i think they hoped to govern together Abbas as president and the Hamas guy as Prime minister.… The power sharing didn’t go well… Hamas took power in Gaza in 2007 following the clashes… No elections since then…
 
TheGame said:
Finally a statement with some common sense. Not sure why it was so difficult for Starmer and Thornberry.

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It's another pathetic statement, I hate this constant of Israel having the right to defend itself but absolutely no mention of it's brutal occupation. Israel has a right to kill Palestinians but Palestinians have no right to react to being occupied.
 
Has anyone in the west come out in support of palestine in the last few days? I have no idea but I get the impression politicians are terrified of having their career ended over not backing Israel.
 
Buster15 said:
All I am asking is can you back up what you have said factually. Simple question.
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What the feck are you on about? What part of what I said doesn't sound believable and requires verification? The average age of Gazans? The fact Gaza is a small and densely packed strip of land? Nothing I said there is particularly subjective or contentious.
 
pacifictheme said:
Has anyone in the west come out in support of palestine in the last few days? I have no idea but I get the impression politicians are terrified of having their career ended over not backing Israel.
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Ireland is the only nation as far as I'm aware that's displayed a modicum of sympathy and compassion.
 
Kaos said:
What the feck are you on about? What part of what I said doesn't sound believable and requires verification? The average age of Gazans? The fact Gaza is a small and densely packed strip of land? Nothing I said there is particularly subjective or contentious.
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Thought so...
 
Buster15 said:
Yes. And if more people would deal in the facts instead of emotions the world would be a much safer place.
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That should be direkt at Starmer who risks losing a big proportion of Labor’s “pro Palestinian” voters over these comments.
 
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