Keeping Midfield Strong

Transfer-Herrera (Schweinsteiger, Pereira)
---Schneiderlin--- (Carrick, Blind)

That would be my midfield next year, and then by 2017-18 probably Carrick will have moved on and Schweinsteiger will be too slow to play as anything but the deepest mid, so he can take that spot and a new signing can fight with Herrera and the transfer to start.

So, ideally, this summer, we'd sign a nailed on CM starter and the best 17-19 year old we can find.
 
we are 21 double pivot players short. We need a long term Carrick replacement and another player to offer first team competition. Preferably creative passers who can defend or a box to box creative passer with defensive skill ala Pogba or Yaya Toure. For right now we keep trying to employ AM's like Herrera or Fellaini there yet it can never work.

Realistically IMO we should add a big name there and return Blind to midfield competition also by adding center halves.
 
The type and the position of any midfield additions depend on the system of play, doesn't it? We don't know what our best formation is or if our current players are compatible to one style and to each other.

In the long term, only Schneiderlin(26, DCM), Herrera(26, CM) and Pereira(20, CM) will probably still be with us barring any unforeseen circumstances. Any additions should be made considering them and not Carrick and Schweinsteiger.

If we play 4-3-3, we'll need 2 CMs, if its 4-2-3-1 then 1 CM and 1 AM/SS. Most importantly, they need to have pace and should be able to dribble.
 
The last 2 games we've played with the blueprint 3 man midfield, a #6, #8 and #10 and I think it's shown that we really could use another #6 and #8 added to the squad. Carrick is still quality in possession but just can't cover the ground when we are being attacked, and Fellaini simply isn't of the standard required.

If the scuttlebutt over the January window and since is true then it looks like Renato Sanches is being earmarked for the #8 role, and there are several good options out there for the #6.
 
Despite the additions last summer I still feel that Carrick would be my first choice in midfield. We still haven't got that top player we have been crying out for.
 
Devil may care said:
The last 2 games we've played with the blueprint 3 man midfield, a #6, #8 and #10 and I think it's shown that we really could use another #6 and #8 added to the squad. Carrick is still quality in possession but just can't cover the ground when we are being attacked, and Fellaini simply isn't of the standard required.

If the scuttlebutt over the January window and since is true then it looks like Renato Sanches is being earmarked for the #8 role, and there are several good options out there for the #6.
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Schneiderlin? Xhaka would be a good option
 
Silverman said:
Schneiderlin? Xhaka would be a good option
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I hope Schneiderlin finds his feet here but even at his best he is not a proper #6 that can dictate a game, he just isn't up to it on the ball. Xhaka hasn't been so good this season from what I've seen and his temperament is still questionable, but he's got the game for the role, I agree.
 
You could put Fellaini next to Xavi and Iniesta and it wouldn't be good enough, he's that much of a weak link when played deeper. The ball moves so much slower at his feet. Carrick/Schwein, Schneiderlin and Herrera/Mata depending on the opposition is a midfield that needs to be given a serious run.
 
Thought it was worth a bump in light of Bastian missing the rest of the season after just coming back from a 3 month lay-off. He will be 32 next season and Carrick 35, both are injury prone now and we are still being forced to use Fellaini as a CM.

We've been linked with Renato Sanches, Saul Niguez, Toni Kroos and Andre Gomes multiple times over the last few months, hopefully this means we are looking to bring in a couple of CM's and finally shore this area of the team up properly, no more papering over the cracks.
 
Devil may care said:
Thought it was worth a bump in light of Bastian missing the rest of the season after just coming back from a 3 month lay-off. He will be 32 next season and Carrick 35, both are injury prone now and we are still being forced to use Fellaini as a CM.

We've been linked with Renato Sanches, Saul Niguez, Toni Kroos and Andre Gomes multiple times over the last few months, hopefully this means we are looking to bring in a couple of CM's and finally shore this area of the team up properly, no more papering over the cracks.
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United don't need two more first team central midfielders. It would be overkill. If we can sign one genuinely top midfielder with Carrick turning 35 that would be fine. United already have Herrera, Schweinsteiger, Schneiderlin, Carrick, Blind and Fellaini and we rarely play a system which uses three central midfielders. I think Blind is likely to be used as a central midfielder after this season.
 
Ole'sbodyguard said:
United don't need two more first team central midfielders. It would be overkill. If we can sign one genuinely top midfielder with Carrick turning 35 that would be fine. United already have Herrera, Schweinsteiger, Schneiderlin, Carrick, Blind and Fellaini and we rarely play a system which uses three central midfielders. I think Blind is likely to be used as a central midfielder after this season.
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Carrick and Schweini shouldn't be factored in at all IMO, Carrick shouldn't get another contract at his age and Schweini is so injury prone he can't be relied on, plus Fellaini is awful. Personally I am not sure any manager would use Herrera as anything but an AM, so that leaves us with Schneiderlin and I guess Blind as proper CM's who's legs are still in working order. Two more to join them gives us a compliment of 4 proper CM's.
 
Devil may care said:
Carrick and Schweini shouldn't be factored in at all IMO, Carrick shouldn't get another contract at his age and Schweini is so injury prone he can't be relied on, plus Fellaini is awful. Personally I am not sure any manager would use Herrera as anything but an AM, so that leaves us with Schneiderlin and I guess Blind as proper CM's who's legs are still in working order. Two more to join them gives us a compliment of 4 proper CM's.
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The thing is Carrick and Schweinsteiger are both first team central midfielders for United so they have to be factored in when talking about the midfield options the club have going forward. Schweinsteiger has played 31 games this season and Carrick has played 29 games with the likelihood that will finish this season in the mid thirties. I doubt LVG or a new manager next season is going to get rid of both of them before next season. Herrara has also regularly been used as a central midfielder in his career so he is certainly an option in that position and Blind and Schneiderlin are obviously both central midfielders. Like I said before signing two new central midfielders is over kill. The defence could do with that investment.
 
Ole'sbodyguard said:
The thing is Carrick and Schweinsteiger are both first team central midfielders for United so they have to be factored in when talking about the midfield options the club have going forward. Schweinsteiger has played 31 games this season and Carrick has played 29 games with the likelihood that will finish this season in the mid thirties. I doubt LVG or a new manager next season is going to get rid of both of them before next season. Herrara has also regularly been used as a central midfielder in his career so he is certainly an option in that position and Blind and Schneiderlin are obviously both central midfielders. Like I said before signing two new central midfielders is over kill. The defence could do with that investment.
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If you look at the amount of minutes Schweinisteiger has played it makes less productive reading, he's also had another bad knee injury, and like I say Carrick's legs are gone and at 35 logically this should be his last season. If you look at Herrera he was rarely used as a CM for Bilbao or Spain's U21's, always more of a 3rd man in the midfield, and when playing for us he's struggled when asked to play deeper, not suited to the double pivot at all. Blind I feel is a much better CB than he is a CM, he isn't mobile enough in midfield to get out of tight pressing, we'd be better off keeping him where he is and getting in the extra CM's IMO. I don't think it's overkill, it's a case of finally putting an area of our team right that has been treat with half measures and stop gaps for way too long.
 
Devil may care said:
We've been linked with Renato Sanches, Saul Niguez, Toni Kroos and Andre Gomes multiple times over the last few months, hopefully this means we are looking to bring in a couple of CM's and finally shore this area of the team up properly, no more papering over the cracks.
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It's hardly fair to call this season's midfield 'papering over the cracks'. We bought Schweinsteiger and kept Carrick fully in the knowledge that they'd only be relevant for a season or two more. We also bought Schneiderlin as a more long-term signing, and one that is starting to really come good now. Yes, we now need to look for another addition to cover for the phasing out of the two older players, but that doesn't mean signing Schweinsteiger was short-sighted, just knowingly short-term.
 
Brightonian said:
It's hardly fair to call this season's midfield 'papering over the cracks'. We bought Schweinsteiger and kept Carrick fully in the knowledge that they'd only be relevant for a season or two more. We also bought Schneiderlin as a more long-term signing, and one that is starting to really come good now. Yes, we now need to look for another addition to cover for the phasing out of the two older players, but that doesn't mean signing Schweinsteiger was short-sighted, just knowingly short-term.
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Schweinsteiger has offered us very little and meant that we have 2 old CM's that are injury prone and lacking in mobility, I'd call that papering over the cracks personally. We should have 4 fully able bodied CM's ready to rotate and compete for the 2 starting CM positions, we are still carrying players that can only play bit parts as when they play back to back games they look knackered by the second game.
 
Devil may care said:
Schweinsteiger has offered us very little and meant that we have 2 old CM's that are injury prone and lacking in mobility, I'd call that papering over the cracks personally. We should have 4 fully able bodied CM's ready to rotate and compete for the 2 starting CM positions, we are still carrying players that can only play bit parts as when they play back to back games they look knackered by the second game.
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We've not lacked for players in that position this season. We knew what we were getting, and got what we expected. Schweinsteiger was actually very good for the first half of the season - he was part of the too-slow, too-cautious football, yes, but that's down to Van Gaal's instructions not the player. He did the job he was told to do very well indeed. He had almost as much to do with that rock solid defensive record we had in the autumn as the defenders themselves.

It's naive to expect every signing to be a 20-year-old who'll be a first team fixture for the next ten years. Sometimes you can sign a Shaw or Martial, sometimes you sign a Larsson, Van Persie or Schweinsteiger. As long as you don't expect the latter to stick around for five seasons, there's nothing wrong with them.
 
I would also like us to sign 2. One that can pull the strings like a Gundogan and another who has more energy like Gomes/Saul.

Gundogan
Gomes/Saul
Schweinsteiger
Schneiderlin

4 good options for the 2 midfield positions. Herrera can play the number 10 role or the 3rd person in a 4-3-3. Also from the little I've watched of Sanches I hope we aren't planning on buying him for £40m+
 
Brightonian said:
We've not lacked for players in that position this season. We knew what we were getting, and got what we expected. Schweinsteiger was actually very good for the first half of the season - he was part of the too-slow, too-cautious football, yes, but that's down to Van Gaal's instructions not the player. He did the job he was told to do very well indeed. He had almost as much to do with that rock solid defensive record we had in the autumn as the defenders themselves.

It's naive to expect every signing to be a 20-year-old who'll be a first team fixture for the next ten years. Sometimes you can sign a Shaw or Martial, sometimes you sign a Larsson, Van Persie or Schweinsteiger. As long as you don't expect the latter to stick around for five seasons, there's nothing wrong with them.
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We already had someone doing what Schweinsteiger did, we didn't need 2 guys past their best offering very little and only being able to maintain their match stamina for a single game. I never suggested buying 20 year olds, just that we need 4 CM's that were all capable of playing multiple games back to back without running out of steam. I'd also say we have lacked for options this season as we are still playing Fellaini in there. There's no reason to carry old, immobile players IMO.
 
Devil may care said:
We already had someone doing what Schweinsteiger did, we didn't need 2 guys past their best offering very little and only being able to maintain their match stamina for a single game. I never suggested buying 20 year olds, just that we need 4 CM's that were all capable of playing multiple games back to back without running out of steam. I'd also say we have lacked for options this season as we are still playing Fellaini in there. There's no reason to carry old, immobile players IMO.
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Except that that's not true of Schweinsteiger this season, is it? From the start of the season through till December he played the vast majority of matches and was a key figure in the side. You can't write off half a season just because he's not playing right now. I'd say half a season's worth of games each is roughly what Van Gaal was expecting to get out of Carrick and Schweinsteiger, and that's basically what he's had. He also bought Schneiderlin, who was one of the caf's top CM targets in the summer. In a way Schweinsteiger was just a bonus.

And Fellaini is a straw man here, because Van Gaal plays him as a box-to-box or even attacking midfielder, not as a DM.
 
Brightonian said:
Except that that's not true of Schweinsteiger this season, is it? From the start of the season through till December he played the vast majority of matches and was a key figure in the side. You can't write off half a season just because he's not playing right now. I'd say half a season's worth of games each is roughly what Van Gaal was expecting to get out of Carrick and Schweinsteiger, and that's basically what he's had. He also bought Schneiderlin, who was one of the caf's top CM targets in the summer. In a way Schweinsteiger was just a bonus.

And Fellaini is a straw man here, because Van Gaal plays him as a box-to-box or even attacking midfielder, not as a DM.
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It is true as he played but you could see he was struggling to keep going when the games came thick and fast and his influence diminished quickly, that's no use, and the idea of having 2 CM's that can only play half a season is ridiculous, we should have 2 top CM's that can play every game if fit and 2 CM's good enough and fit enough to rotate/cover and step in if needed in the advent of injury. Schweinsteiger and Carrick are the very definition of papering over the cracks.

Fellaini has played in the midfield pivot almost exclusively since he returned from injury.

Next season it should be Schneiderlin, Blind and 2 new CM's as our midfield options with Schweinsteiger as a luxury option.
 
Devil may care said:
It is true as he played but you could see he was struggling to keep going when the games came thick and fast and his influence diminished quickly, that's no use, and the idea of having 2 CM's that can only play half a season is ridiculous, we should have 2 top CM's that can play every game if fit and 2 CM's good enough and fit enough to rotate/cover and step in if needed in the advent of injury. Schweinsteiger and Carrick are the very definition of papering over the cracks.
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So Schneiderin and Herrera, and Schweinsteiger and Carrick? Plus Blind of course, who played some very good games for us as a DM last season.

To be clear, I'm not disputing that we need to buy one or two this summer. I'm just saying that doesn't mean that we made a mistake. For the first quarter of the season, Schweinsteiger was regularly amongst the best performers, and the caf was very pleased with him. His class and experience were really shining through. If the team as a whole hadn't started to struggle so badly, who's to say how important he might have continued to be for us. I personally don't see it as a bad buy at all (we got him for £7m, for crying out loud), and I don't think it's 'backfired' or anything like that - we've not lacked for senior midfielders at any point this season. Even on the rare occasions where Fellaini has played a deeper role, Herrera has generally been available - Van Gaal doesn't play him enough, and that's a separate problem - so Carrick and Schweinsteiger's age and potential for injury haven't really hurt us.
 
Brightonian said:
So Schneiderin and Herrera, and Schweinsteiger and Carrick? Plus Blind of course, who played some very good games for us as a DM last season.

To be clear, I'm not disputing that we need to buy one or two this summer. I'm just saying that doesn't mean that we made a mistake. For the first quarter of the season, Schweinsteiger was regularly amongst the best performers, and the caf was very pleased with him. His class and experience were really shining through. If the team as a whole hadn't started to struggle so badly, who's to say how important he might have continued to be for us. I personally don't see it as a bad buy at all (we got him for £7m, for crying out loud), and I don't think it's 'backfired' or anything like that - we've not lacked for senior midfielders at any point this season. Even on the rare occasions where Fellaini has played a deeper role, Herrera has generally been available - Van Gaal doesn't play him enough, and that's a separate problem - so Carrick and Schweinsteiger's age and potential for injury haven't really hurt us.
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I'm talking about next season in which Carrick should be gone and Schweinsteiger should not be seen as anything but a luxury option who is 32 with a recurring knee problem, an extra, not a player to be relied on. I also don't think Herrera is a proper CM for the double pivot, he's too reckless and careless with the ball, he's an AM for a 3 man midfield.

I feel that we are having crossed wires here on everything but Fellaini who I am confident in saying has played as a proper CM a lot more than the rare occasion since he came back from injury this season. Was Schweinstegier a gamble worth taking? IMO yes, but he is still a finger in the dam. I am saying this summer we need to get midfield fully sorted and stop with half measures that depend on old, injury prone players who are past their best.
 
Devil may care said:
I feel that we are having crossed wires here on everything but Fellaini who I am confident in saying has played as a proper CM a lot more than the rare occasion since he came back from injury this season. Was Schweinstegier a gamble worth taking? IMO yes, but he is still a finger in the dam. I am saying this summer we need to get midfield fully sorted and stop with half measures that depend on old, injury prone players who are past their best.
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I guess we basically agree then. It's just that I don't think short-term solutions are always half measures. As long as you know it's a short term solution, then sometimes it's the best option at the time. What if we'd passed on Schweinsteiger and instead gone for the midfield equivalent of Memphis Depay? Sure he's young and fit and generally available to play but he was also a risk and this season we haven't been able to rely on him as a first-teamer, and it could still take him some time to really adapt to the league and the pressure of a big club. The fact that Schweinsteiger was able to slip so seamlessly into a regular starting role in that first part of the season was a big factor in our strong start. So there are pros and cons to every type of signing.
 
Brightonian said:
I guess we basically agree then. It's just that I don't think short-term solutions are always half measures. As long as you know it's a short term solution, then sometimes it's the best option at the time. What if we'd passed on Schweinsteiger and instead gone for the midfield equivalent of Memphis Depay? Sure he's young and fit and generally available to play but he was also a risk and this season we haven't been able to rely on him as a first-teamer, and it could still take him some time to really adapt to the league and the pressure of a big club. The fact that Schweinsteiger was able to slip so seamlessly into a regular starting role in that first part of the season was a big factor in our strong start. So there are pros and cons to every type of signing.
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Agreed and I honestly have not said we shouldn't have tried the Bastian route, but in my view what weve gotten from it has been of minor use and should not be the plan for next season IMO. I'm just throwing 2 names in we have been linked with too illustrate my point, I'd like to see us start next season with say Schneiderlin/Blind/Saul/Sanches as our 4 CM options, then players like Herrera and Lingard could vie for the AM role.
 
I think one thing this season has shown is that, while we have finally addressed the midfield issue, we've not solved it. At best we've patched it up, but our midfield is hardly imperious, and is far from settled.
I fully believe that we still need a top class midfielder, in or approaching his prime. Who else stays to play with him depends on who we get and who our manager is.
 
Still want to see strootman at UTD, hopefully he get back to full fitness and has a decent preseason. Personally think it's time to move Carrick on or give him a coaching/trainer role at the club. Offload Fellaini, Blind and Mata, setup with a midfield trio, add Mensah, Goss and Pereira to midfield.
DM: Schneiderlin, Mensah
CM: Bastian, Goss, Strootman
AM: Herrera, Pereira
 
I honestly think we should go all out for Pogba, spend what it takes as he would be the engine of this team.
 
TrustInJanuzai said:
I honestly think we should go all out for Pogba, spend what it takes as he would be the engine of this team.
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I think Pogba would be better in a midfield of 3. However, we normally play 4231... He could be really good in a midfield of 2 with Schneiderlin but I would prefer a deep lying playmaker like Gundogan or Kroos.

Pogba will cost a lot of money, but we could recover that money if we sell him to Madrid/Barca in 3 or 4 years. He is a good option but IMO he is unrealistic for the moment.
 
Pogba are Gundogan would be ideal as they can operate as playmakers and carry the ball up field. Sadly neither are likely to happen. It seems we are very much after Renato Sanches so that would rule out any interest in Kante as the other CM has to be a creative playmaker.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
we are 21 double pivot players short. We need a long term Carrick replacement and another player to offer first team competition. Preferably creative passers who can defend or a box to box creative passer with defensive skill ala Pogba or Yaya Toure. For right now we keep trying to employ AM's like Herrera or Fellaini there yet it can never work.

Realistically IMO we should add a big name there and return Blind to midfield competition also by adding center halves.
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Agree, we have many attacking midfielders but have no one to play behind them.
 
Fer said:
I think Pogba would be better in a midfield of 3. However, we normally play 4231... He could be really good in a midfield of 2 with Schneiderlin but I would prefer a deep lying playmaker like Gundogan or Kroos.

Pogba will cost a lot of money, but we could recover that money if we sell him to Madrid/Barca in 3 or 4 years. He is a good option but IMO he is unrealistic for the moment.
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Yeh I I don't think we will win anything with 4231, in my opinion 433 is by far the best formation around, having 3 free role strikers/ wide forwards upfront and a solid midfield 3 is where we can best evolve. That would also see players like Carrick, Herrera better suited to the midfield and Memphis, Rashford, martial all more suited to the system upfront.

LVG is a poor manager for this alone in my book, not realising he has the players to play the 433 system perfectly.
 
Its pretty evident that Fellaini is not suited for our midfield. He stands out like a sore thumb or to use a football term like Mcnair in our defense, Gaz as manager of Valencia and LVG as manager of Manchester United. Having said that I am quite interesting to see how our midfield would work in a system that actually work. I mean look at the talent there is in it. Schneiderlin (one of the best DMs in the EPL), Bastian (ok he's in decline but he's 32 FFS not dead), Herrera (he schooled Scholes and co a few years back when we played against Bilbao), Mata (former Chelsea player of the year), Blind (not world class but he's quite an intelligent player), Carrick (ok he's finished). That's not a bad midfield at all.

Considering that we need major investment on the flanks I'd say we should limit ourselves in getting a midfielder on relatively cheap as DM. If we can sell Mata and bring in a top quality midfielder who can also play behind the striker then it would great.

---------------------------Schneiderlin/DM

---------------Bastian/Blind-----------Herrera/Mata----------
 
devilish said:
Its pretty evident that Fellaini is not suited for our midfield. He stands out like a sore thumb or to use a football term like Mcnair in our defense, Gaz as manager of Valencia and LVG as manager of Manchester United. Having said that I am quite interesting to see how our midfield would work in a system that actually work. I mean look at the talent there is in it. Schneiderlin (one of the best DMs in the EPL), Bastian (ok he's in decline but he's 32 FFS not dead), Herrera (he schooled Scholes and co a few years back when we played against Bilbao), Mata (former Chelsea player of the year), Blind (not world class but he's quite an intelligent player), Carrick (ok he's finished). That's not a bad midfield at all.

Considering that we need major investment on the flanks I'd say we should limit ourselves in getting a midfielder on relatively cheap as DM. If we can sell Mata and bring in a top quality midfielder who can also play behind the striker then it would great.

---------------------------Schneiderlin/DM

---------------Bastian/Blind-----------Herrera/Mata----------
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Hm, not a fan of that at all.

Schneiderlin has shown glimpses. Not a bad first season
Schweinsteiger is finished. Too slow. Too unfit. Too unreliable. Hes gone off a cliff more than Rooney has.
Blind is just not good enough in midfield.
Herrera is a good option but not a guaranteed starter for me based on his performances so far.
Carrick has probably been our best CM and hes on the way out sadly.

We need two starting CMs this summer. Then we have options with personel and formation.

New CM (kante?)
New CM (?)
Schniederlin
Herrera
Blind as a squad player but only played in midfield if we're really thin on the ground.

Those 4 / 5 for 2 or 3 spots.

Mata as an advanced option if we play two in midfield.

Then we probably need a winger, CB and potentially a striker (unless rashford ends the season on 10 plus goals?). 5 signings.
 
nokillingmoths said:
Hm, not a fan of that at all.

Schneiderlin has shown glimpses. Not a bad first season
Schweinsteiger is finished. Too slow. Too unfit. Too unreliable. Hes gone off a cliff more than Rooney has.
Blind is just not good enough in midfield.
Herrera is a good option but not a guaranteed starter for me based on his performances so far.
Carrick has probably been our best CM and hes on the way out sadly.

We need two starting CMs this summer. Then we have options with personel and formation.

New CM (kante?)
New CM (?)
Schniederlin
Herrera
Blind as a squad player but only played in midfield if we're really thin on the ground.

Those 4 / 5 for 2 or 3 spots.

Mata as an advanced option if we play two in midfield.

Then we probably need a winger, CB and potentially a striker (unless rashford ends the season on 10 plus goals?). 5 signings.
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Its not perfect but we've got higher priorities (2 Wingers, 2 CBs and 1 CM)
 
nokillingmoths said:
Heh. I suppose its down to where your squad priorities lie really. Can't argue with two cbs really, two wingers?
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Our flanks are completely devoid of talent and eye to goals. I'd say add griezmann and mahrez and keep Januzaj, Young and depay as cover
 
devilish said:
Our flanks are completely devoid of talent and eye to goals. I'd say add griezmann and mahrez and keep Januzaj, Young and depay as cover
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We have Martial on the left and Griezman and Mahrez as both play from the right, Griezmann played from the left for Sociedad but he was average there, he's flourished when played as a free roaming second striker or as a RWF for France.
 
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