Considering the sheer volume of "he's not being played in his natural position" type comments, it sure would have been worth it to test the theory.
Karim Benzema
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Jamie (@Vault Dweller) are here to talk about United's dreadful home defeat at the hands of Big Ange's Tottenham Hotspur. Should this have been the end of Ten Hag? How long does he actually have left? And does Nik finally want ETH out?!
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Considering the sheer volume of "he's not being played in his natural position" type comments, it sure would have been worth it to test the theory.
To be fair i think we need to replace Carrick.. he's just not up to it when it comes to the big games. I think Fergie see's it too which is why he was dropped yesterday.
Benzema would be a better option to what we have in Berbatov as i would replace the flair for Benzema's directness and power.
Macheda shouldn't even come into the equation - and Bojan's far more experienced. So yeah they've got better replacements than us. As I said, we've got no 9s to replace Rooney. Berbatov can't play up top on his own. Neville hasn't got a replacement otherwise he'd be playing now instead of the 35/36 uear old. And I have no idea who this replacement for Giggs is. . . it's certainly not Nani, who's better on the right.
To be fair, what yesterday showed is that Berbatov doesn't cut it on his own up top without help against big teams. Whether that comes from the wingers joining in or another forward depends on the game. But I'd like to see us have someone else who can play that role up top. If SAF believes that person is Macheda then he needs to start giving him the games to kick on, as you can't ever rely on one player to be your centre forward for an entire season.
We've not seen enough of Macheda to form a proper opinion. We'll find out next season, most likely.
Aye. That's what I'm getting at. If SAF reckons he's the real deal, then he has to back that judgement by giving him enough games. If there are any doubts about him, then I reckon we need to bring someone in. I'd like to see him given a chance - though the vast majority of times we've seen him at this level have been in emergencies where it's hard to judge exactly how good he is/will be - so there may be a leap of faith involved.
I think we could play two upfront if we had two world class forwards to make it easier for our midfield by occupying defenders and dragging them out of position.
Too much in yesterdays game was Berba just strolling across Chelsea's back four making it piss easy for them to defend against him. I don't know where he got the rights from to stroll around in these type of games. Great player, shocking movement.
Too much in yesterdays game was Berba just strolling across Chelsea's back four making it piss easy for them to defend against him. I don't know where he got the rights from to stroll around in these type of games. Great player, shocking movement.
Bojan's started 12 league games in the past two seasons, chances are Macheda would've had a similar figure if he wasn't injured. And going even further than that, around half of those would've been on the wing. Very little between Macheda and him in terms of how strong an option either is up front. They're just kids, and like Barca we believe in our kids. We're not bringing in another striker to push them even further down the pecking order unless it's a stop gap like Owen.
We've got no 9's, they've got no 9's. It's being made to be a much bigger deal than it is. Yeah it'd be wonderful if we could have a great striker to be Rooney's back-up but great strikers don't like being bench players.
Only way to do that is to give up on wingers and get the two strikers to cover all attacking roles like Madrid, and somehow I can't see Sir Alex doing that.
Yes. But it depends on whether SAF is given enough funds to strengthen up front - if he isn't then he'll probably have to play Macheda more. Which to be fair, could be a blessing in disguise. Will be an interesting summer though, because I don't think we're as good as we were last season despite Rooney's brilliance and will need some players to come in and strengthen the team/squad. The other teams around us aren't great either, to be honest, so I wonder what the likes of Chelsea'll do. Abramovic has clearly tightened his purse strings and all. . .
Neither our formation nor our playing style is similar. Our system is quite clearly based around a striker, whereas theirs is based more on bringing players like Messi into the game.
yes but we were interested in Benzema - whether that was just to appease the fans, I don't know. But it would blow a hole in your theory.
Spoony I prefer it when you ain't being sarky. Good posts.
Exactly. We clearly play with an out and out number 9/lineleader, especially against the big clubs.
Yeah, I'd agree with that.
Even last season I felt that we relied a little too much on one player digging us out of the hole. Though the player has changed, I don't think we have all that much.
Even amidst all this talk of strikers I reckon our midfield's the area we should be focussing on more. Giggsy and Scholesy won't go on for ever, and after that, I think a lot of our other midfielders are cut from the same cloth.
Bringing in a midfielder who can keep the ball brings us a lot closer to them, unless you're suggesting we're planning on being a counter-attacking team long-term? Otherwise I don't see how we're going to make it work being based around a striker.
Sir Alex has been banging on about possession for two years now - big reason why we went for Berbatov, big reason why we went for Valencia. Attacking players who keep the ball are unusual, and I'd imagine the reason we're going for them is because we want to go away from the quick attacking style we had with Tevez and Ronaldo - two players who were all about quick, direct attacking.
I don't think the way we're playing this season is anything like a long-term plan, we're just making the most out of a difficult situation until we've got the right players.
Yeah Ronaldo's brilliance papered over the cracks. . .that and a brilliant defence. Thankfully Rooney's stepped up - but he's injured! To be honest, even after we won the title and got to another CL final, I was harping on a about getting a midfielder in the Scholes mold (easy to say eh). . .so it's not a knee jerk reaction. My concern is a lack of funds.
I thought the Glazers were borrowing another £70m to fund signings? I may have made that up, though.
I think this will be our biggest summer since 2007, Fergie will bring a fair few in.
I think this will be our biggest summer since 2007, Fergie will bring a fair few in.
I'd say there's a lot more holes in my theory than that - always is when you're trying to work out what Sir Alex's plan is.
I think we'd have played Rooney left wing a lot again if we'd have gotten Benzema though.
I just hope we have the funds elmo.. either way, I think we have to spend in order to secure a further 5 years of success.
Possibly. I'm sure he would've accommodated them both. We used to play a pretty fluid system. . .I suppose we would've gone back to that. That said, I don't even know if Karim Benz is all that. . . he's certainly thinks he's the old Ronaldo, though.
We won't ever do what Barca are doing, if that's what you're expecting. You couldn't play that way week-in, week-out in the PL, IMO.
Valencia's good on the ball, but if you're suggesting that we got him to allow us to be similar to Barca in the way they keep the ball, then I reckon you're being a bit generous.
I don't understand what this tactical overhaul is that you seem to think is on the way. Phase one with Berbatov coming in has been an unmitigated failure in Europe/big games. It seems to me that we've more or less settled on a 442 with a split striker in smaller games, and a 4231 in Europe/big games. We've never tried to play like Barcelona/Arsenal, and if we did have those intentions, I'd wager our signings would have been different in the past couple of years.
Berbatov has been a f-l-o-p to be fair. I say this as a person who wanted him to succeed badly. And I'm not sure whether we'd be able to recoup much from his sale, so he's with us for the next couple of seasons.
Trying to play like Barca/Arsenal is not the united way.. not under Fergie anyway.
We like to keep posession, but its usually always fast, direct possession geared to create chances.. not merely to look artistic and pass for passings sake.
At the moment the midfield seems incapable of keeping the ball in high intensity games, it was a weakness in 06/07 when we got overran by Milan and we sorted it for 07/08 but its been a steep decline since with unforseen injuries and age affecting our more senior players.
We like to keep posession, but its usually always fast, direct possession geared to create chances.. not merely to look artistic and pass for passings sake.
At the moment the midfield seems incapable of keeping the ball in high intensity games, it was a weakness in 06/07 when we got overran by Milan and we sorted it for 07/08 but its been a steep decline since with unforseen injuries and age affecting our more senior players.
I think he's been quite good for us at times this season, but he doesn't look to be able to impose himself on big games. Or even get in the team, for the most part. So yeah, despite thinking he's a fantastic player, his contribution has been frustrating. Brad's phrase regarding him was perfect : 'He always leaves you wanting more.' If you ignore the gay undertone, it's spot on.
Spurs bought Keane back for 15 mil, they are some slow motherfeckers, we must try our luck!
The decline of Scholes' physical attributes has affected our ability to control the game. His changed his role in the midfield and sat deep over the last few years letting players such as Carrick and Fletcher take control which they've been ineffective at sometimes. We were good at controlling possession at a fast pace during 07/08 because Scholes was near his best and had the guard of Carrick who would pick up the ball from deep areas and feed him.
As for Benzema, he is a handy striker to have in a 4-5-1 formation in case Rooney gets injured because he can lead the line. He could be just as dangerous in a 4-4-2 because his not bad at dropping a bit deeper to pick up the ball and run at defenders. I think his link up play with Rooney would be something great to watch.
He would be expensive and Raul is going to retire soon which leaves Real with Higuan and Benzema. They wouldn't want to sell him if they were in there right mind. Then again Madrid is a circus.
As for Benzema, he is a handy striker to have in a 4-5-1 formation in case Rooney gets injured because he can lead the line. He could be just as dangerous in a 4-4-2 because his not bad at dropping a bit deeper to pick up the ball and run at defenders. I think his link up play with Rooney would be something great to watch.
He would be expensive and Raul is going to retire soon which leaves Real with Higuan and Benzema. They wouldn't want to sell him if they were in there right mind. Then again Madrid is a circus.
I know but I don't think he was brought in to be quite good against the lesser clubs. . . for some reason he hasn't got the je ne sais quoi to succeed at Old Trafford. Cantona clearly had it in abundance and he wasn't exactly a tiger on the pitch, he like Berbatov could stroll around watching the game go by despite this could also influence a game. Having said that he had the psycho about him. . .Berbatov on the otherhand is just too nice and introverted. But yeah when he's good he's brilliant.
Yeah but neither were Perez signings, Benzema was one of his chosen Galacticos, so hey may try harder to keep him around.
I'd like to see Nani and Valencia compete for the right side and a natural left footer brought in to compete with Obertan on the left, but I doubt Fergie will invest in that area before he looks at getting another match winner into the team.
How can you write such a thing ? No can say with absolute certainty that 4-4-2 is SAF's favorite position and besides it's not an injury of Berbatbov which would SAF to play in that formation if he deemed it necessary.We don't have the CM to play 4-4-2 against the very top teams anymore.
We just don't have enough quality in that department to confident enough to keep playing the same formation.
4-5-1 or 4-3-3 (they're almost the same thing for me) has worked and provided terrific results in the last few seasons and the main reason has always been to win the midfield battle.
SAF will play the best possible formation with the players he's got depending on the situation
You do know your conclusion is a paraphrase of exactly what I have written right? You just say it in a lets say softer way..
As far as saying for certain which his preferred formation is I would just ask you to look at his record over the past what 23 years he has been incharge of this club..
See kouroux Now that is a valid argument and one that I tend to agree with... We cannot afford to play a flat 4-4-2 in the European game anymore but as far as my memory for England goes SAF has clearly preferred the 4-4-2..
Lets not fool ourselves here.. Lets leave European football aside.. In the PL SAF prefers the 4-4-2.. Last season was a weird one as far as our striking options were concerned.. We had 4 players in the hat Rooney, Ronaldo, Berba & Tevez.. There was Ronaldo who was undroppable and barely did anything defensively thus playing him on the wings was difficult.. Then we had Rooney who was a sacrificed player he was always played but was played depending on who else was played.. Then we had a record signing who SAF was insistent on starting a majority of the games with (atleast in the beginning) and finally we had Tevez a work horse crowd favourite who wasn't a happy bench warmer.. Now SAF had to tackle them wisely and keep all parties happy and it was a complete mess.. So why not see the season before? Tevez and Rooney were practically started every game together when and if fit in the PL..
Also explain to me why SAF would bid 35+ Million GBP for a 3rd quality striker? Surely he had either meant him to be back-up for Berba-Rooney or make Benzema-Rooney the strikerforce in our 4-4-2 formation..
I think we could go for that kind of player.. Because I cannot see SAF getting rid of Berba or anyone being interested in giving us nearly as much as we would expect for him if sold.. But I have a feeling SAF will go for a proper striker.. As spoony said one that could lead the line in the absence of Rooney or play with Rooney in a 4-4-2
More like back-up considering they were keen to get in Villa and failed then tried for Forlan and decided against it due to his price tag and then turned to Benzema.. Makes me wonder why Benzema wasn't adamant on telling his board to accept the united bid so as to have a chance to play for us instead.. I have seriously tried my best to deal with these players snubbing us but every I look back at them I just wonder WHY?
By that do you mean Benzema isn't a proper striker, in that he can't lead the line in Rooney's absence?
No, of course not. But this season we've been less possession-based when we've had 4-3-3 and a lot of the time been a counter-attacking team, which I don't think is something we want to be doing long-term.
But I mean that given Berbatov hasn't been a huge success, he might try to remedy that by still going for a similar player who, as he says, 'picks the right pass 9 times out of 10' and still gives us that creative spark, just one who plays as a midfielder rather than a striker.
It's not an overhaul it's a gradual progression, we've hit a few bumps on the way but it's still the same destination. Sir Alex was never convinced on Tevez for the price and he knew Ronaldo was going so there needed to be a change, we couldn't play the same system without Ronaldo, he was key. He acted as a third forward and he was there for the quick breakaways, he cut straight through the middle of defences and he worked the whole backline - without him we were always going to have more of the ball but be less dangerous when we're on it.
The way we've set up this season is hugely different to the way we set up last season and it'll hopefully be polished off next season - and I think that will be at a slower pace than what we've been used to over the past few years. Not similar to Barca, but closer to it than its been in a while.
My friend and I have this conversation constantly. I mean if I was a young world class potential talent football player there is only three clubs I would consider going anywhere in Europe.
Barca, Arsenal and United.
Seriously every other big club is a joke where arrogant and/or ignorant people run the clubs. I mean Inter won Italy 3 years running and Mancini is canned and clearly Mourihno is not staying either. Madrid is a circus. Milan is run bu an arrogant crook. Pool is dead in the water. Chelsea only cares about World Class Mercenaries. Juventas has so lost there way. Bayern had lost their way signing players but with no team concept although that may be changing now. And everyone else is second rate.
Anyone who signs for Barca or Arsenal I can understand. Anyone else either wants money or has some issues.
ฺำฺำBenzema's issues were that he dreamt of playing for Real so I don't mind him for joining the circus, same goes for Ronaldo. I doubt they'd win anything this season and I'm pretty sure Barca will win the La Liga yet again.
Considering the quality of Benzema, its a shame that such a talent is wasted in Madrid's bench. He is a player to be a first teamer anywhere, well you just know how things work in Madrid, right now not even kaka is an official starter and that says a lot.
There are always strikers available if you invest some money, ex: Villa.
There are always strikers available if you invest some money, ex: Villa.
I don't think Fergie had a specific tactical plan in mind when he went for Benzema. He rates him, has done so for a long time and just wanted him here rather than anywhere else. A nice problem for him to have as the cliche goes.
He was 3rd choice in that fashion but he was Perez guy over Higuain, it was just as the season got going it became impossible to leave Higuain out.
The why is probably a mix of boyhood dreams and preferring the Madrid lifestyle/weather, you'd think though that some would look at what has become of Ronaldo and Rooney by coming to us as youngsters and think beyond the sunshine and glamour.
Agreed. Fergie has a 'special talent' rule. If he sees it, he wants it. And he'll worry about the rest later.
Benzema could be moulded into a beast of a player at Old Trafford. What an idiot...
I think a goal-keeper aside, United won't be buying anyone in the summer. He'd probably get someone who does well in the World Cup, big tournament mentality and all that.
Considering his potential, how good do you think Rooney has been this season? Am I the only one who thinks he's has a good but not a great season?
Yep. You've got some outlandish opinions. Rooney's been brilliant. . .his movement upfront is as good as anything you'll ever see. The way he makes space is something else. We're seeing a player at the top of his game, he's reached Ronaldo's level(of a couple of seasons back). He learnt how to utilise his energy in the right places - he many not be the animal he was a few years back in the sense of covering every blade of grass - but he's become a much better player for it.
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