As well as a RW and maybe another striker.
Kalidou Koulibaly | Signs new contract.
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As well as a RW and maybe another striker.
Why did Woody brief the media he has 100m for Varane and not the same for this guy?
If he's good enough, we shouldn't care what he costs. It's not like any of us fans are having to remortgage to pay for him.
Besides we've got loads of below par defenders we need to get rid off. That's how we should be saving money.
Besides we've got loads of below par defenders we need to get rid off. That's how we should be saving money.
Its not just VVD though. Its better tactics and players like Gomez and Lovren stepping up to be better than they were before. Yes confidence from having a better player coming in helps, but the ability and concentration have to be there to start with.
If VVD was put straight into our defense next to Bailly or Lindelof and with our current tactics he'd be struggling a lot more than he is now. And I doubt we'd be able to use him as an example of when spending £75 million on a CB is a good idea.
Man if we had this guy and Škriniar it would be our new Vidic and Rio.
We were more than 'ok'
1991-1992 season we had a very good division 1 team. Near complete
-------------Schmeichel-----------
---Parker--Bruce--Pallister--Irwin
--Kanchelskis-Ince-Robson-Giggs
----------McClair---Hughes-------
Subs: Sharpe, Blackmore, Phelan
All that was lacking was someone up front who could get us 20 goals a season
Today we have a collection of talented players (some debatle whether they are good enough). And we are far off a cohesive unit as the 91/92 team
Im not sure why you are comparing that team and now.
Besides, Cantona wasn't a "20 goal a season" forward. Rather he was the key the opened the door to that team's true greatness. Im not convinced that team you listed without a Cantona would EVER have gone on to launch United's dominance of the EPL era.
Even a better example is our signing of Ferdinand. The previous season we had been truly horrendous defensively. The following season just his addition improved us signifcantly defensively to win the league again.
If we were to add such a calibre of defender to our ranks. We'd undoubtedly improve significantly.
My point is We had better and more stable, experienced teams back then. Look at that back 5 in 1992....that midfield 4 and a world class striker in Van Nistelrooy in 2002!
One player (ie. Koulibaly) in this team isn't all of a sudden going to make a dramatic improvement as you think
This team is relatively young and are going through a process together.. Along with improvements (2/3 first team signings..) it will take time
I strongly disagree. Our weakness in chief currently is organisation and composure in defence which in turn affects the entire team. Plus a lack of aerial dominance. Even one player alone with those exact qualities would dramatically improve us. Im not saying it would make us world beaters. But we'd actually start to look competitive.
Not this business of starting most games threatening to go 3-4 goals down by half time before regrouping.
Your Eric Cantona comparison wasnt the best example then wasnt it
Cantona didn’t make United look World Beaters either so...
If you add a player who can lead and organize the defence and is aerially dominant, it would transform our defence. This should not even be a question
The real question is what is such a player worth and if Koulibaly is said player
The real question is what is such a player worth and if Koulibaly is said player
Bang on.
Welcome to the Caf.
Koulibaly is definitely in my top 3 choices for a new CB buy, even if I think the Napoli president will be a nightmare to deal with.
I’d love him, but he’s going to cost north of £80m and Napoli are a nightmare to deal with.
Not with average fullbacks and when his partner won't stop losing duels, the DM keeps trotting back on the counter, the goalkeeper is reluctant to leave his line and the opponents keep sending waves of attacks after attacks without any resistance. A £100m CB will change little - even Baresi, the master of organizing defences might struggle.
I'd be over the moon if we got him.
He really is that rock missing in our defence.
Though, getting him shouldn't be the end of our defensive re-enforcements. We would need to get another centre back and full-backs.
Tierney as a left back. Dalot would need a run. And it would make sense to get another defensive midfielder. I also still think there is a player Bailly. I also think Lindelof would excel with a strong leader next to him. Plus we have Tuazebe and Fosu-Mensah who need to be given a go.
We would just need to ship off Jones, Rojo and one of Valencia or Young (both would be a risk and too much of drastic change).
If we can just focus on fixing our back six between the January and summer windows, we would see a HUGE difference in the overall play.
We can then think about the attack in Summer 2020 onwards. Plus - the midfield and attack are not in as bad shape as the defence.
He really is that rock missing in our defence.
Though, getting him shouldn't be the end of our defensive re-enforcements. We would need to get another centre back and full-backs.
Tierney as a left back. Dalot would need a run. And it would make sense to get another defensive midfielder. I also still think there is a player Bailly. I also think Lindelof would excel with a strong leader next to him. Plus we have Tuazebe and Fosu-Mensah who need to be given a go.
We would just need to ship off Jones, Rojo and one of Valencia or Young (both would be a risk and too much of drastic change).
If we can just focus on fixing our back six between the January and summer windows, we would see a HUGE difference in the overall play.
We can then think about the attack in Summer 2020 onwards. Plus - the midfield and attack are not in as bad shape as the defence.
It will cos a lot of those issues can be improved with proper communication and direction, particularly in game adjustments.
Take the often seen case of shaw giving the opposition too much space or our defenders generally losing track of their man, these can be mitigated if it is brought to their attention in real time (as opposed to manager shouting from side lines). A lot of times you can see there is confudion about who is responsible for who e.g. citeh first goal.
Also, the individual quality of the defender will also help clean up some mistakes by others
The most recent example of the impact of such a CB is VVD and the liverpool defence, so much that lovren looks a different player.
Can you give another example apart from VVD?
He won't transform anything until our tactics change. I'm certain of that.
What... almost like defensive coaching?
Having a solid presence will lead to our tactics changing. Although I want Mourinho out, a lot of our problems have root causes because of a weak backline. It's a glass chinned boxer, who's got the ability but has glass chin can't always use swashbuckling tactics in a fight, he has to always wait on the outside to avoid getting hit (sounds like Amir Khan without the "avoid getting hit part"). Anyway, back to my point, we've not had an individual with presence or someone who can transform others at the back. De Gea with all his great performances couldn't lead a bunch lost tourists in his home city.
We need a strong leader at the back and the right man would have a HUGE impact on the backline. Koulibaly should seriously be considered as this option. If we can also get Skiriniar or De Ligt, that would be our backline sorted for 5+ years.
cannavaro real madrid
What tactics can do is hide or expose your defence, but it does not change the quality of your defence.
Your backline not being able to keep a straight is not due to tactics, nor is it tactics that leaves player unmarked and people not knowing who is responsible for what.
Blaming tactics for a poor defending is no different from blaming tactics for misplaced passes or poor finishing
.
What must be remembered is that Napoli play very high pressing system and they defend together as a team. If you watch their midfield they put in a very big shift winning lots of tackles and making lots of interceptions every game. We don't have that. Koulibaly basically acts as a sweeper at the back using his pace and power when needed. His strength is in the 1 on 1 duels. He doesn't defend in his box much.
If you put him in this team he will be exposed without increased workrate . He will add world class quality but defending is a team effort and not responsibility of one player.
It was marginal. They were conceding at a similar rate, just had a much improved overall team iirc - although I might be wrong. Van Dijk is the case I can recall where one signing completely changed the course of a defense. One or two cases is arbitary and does not prove anything. It might be due to overall improve in coaching that coincided with the signing of a particular player.
In our team, the problem stems far beyond lacking a leader or something along those lines. There's obvious lack of quality among our starters, proper coaching, and the style does not help matters too. One defender would change little.
He is a lot more like Bailly in that regard. He is great one on one, but that proves nothing for center backs. His kind is liable to being exposed when defending in deep blocks and he is not very good on the air.
I would like him though if he is paired with Smalling who is more adept at penalty box defending, although a general change in style would be preferable.
Koulibaly is not a box office name like Varane. That's all he cares about.
the situation is rare makes the examples rarer.
Cannavaro's impact was not minimal. Madrid had an aged backline, with Salgado and Carlos as full backs and Helguera (a converted DM to CB) and the like of pavo, mejier and bravo as CB. They had recently bought Ramos and Marcelo who were still green.
The previous season the defence was all over the place, but relied on experience and strong attack to hide their defensive vulnerabilities.
when capello was hired, his prime defensive signing was a 32yr old cannavaro, who brought organization and leadership to that backline and improved the players like ramos. it was less about his individual defensive contribution, cos he was already in decline. Anyone that watched the games could see what he brought. (Mourinho did something similar in bringing in Carvalho when he was at madeid).
Looking at our current defence we lack individual quality and also lack the leadership and organization of a cohesive unit. these are not things rectified by coaching (cos he can't get on the field and stop shaw from playing Silva onside on the other flank). while having a stronger attack or midfield might help hide the problem, it wont make it go away and would always rear its ugly head when the defence is tested. A bad defence is a bad defence.Same way, a solid defence lets you be more open when attacking and gamble more.
currently, we basically have two groups: the young with potential (bailly, lindelof, shaw and dalot) and the old and mediocre ( smalling, rojo, jones, young and valencia). To make our defense better, we either buy quality proven defenders (like varane, koulibaly etc) which would cost a lot of money or buy cheaper younger talents. The latter option would last longer and has less risk of flopping but needs a system to groom them.
thus we need to get an experienced defensive leader who can help organize the defence and also help with the development of lindelof and co. That is the best way to transform our defence without spending half a billion.
For Koulibaly, i dont think he fits the role and buying him would only gain us his individual contribution. Also the rumored price tag and age are of concern. i would prefer a cheaper option for the role.
I don't think he will leave for us, maybe Barca or Real.
Why isnt he? Why was Pogba a box office name because he was doing great in Serie A but a CB wouldnt be?
Its really not. Varane is still the better player and also two years younger than Koulibaly.
Vidic for us? Not straight away but ever since the second season our defence clicked.
I dont think thats completely accurate. IMO A lot of the improvement in the defensive organization of Madrid can also be attributed to Capello himself (compared to the inexperience of Luxemburgo), signings of multiple experienced and young defensive midfielders (emerson, diarra, gago) and a change in playing style which was a bit more conservative. But overall Madrid still conceded 40 goals in La Liga in Cannavaro's first season (06-07) the same as they did the previous season (05-06).
I do agree that ideally a ready made vocal organizer at the back is very useful. However, I don't think that its a predominant trait of many good CBs in the game today and its not absolutely necessary for a winning team (eg. at the moment Stones and Laporte look excellent, but neither could be described as a vocal organizer or leader yet). Some of the worlds best defenders are quiet characters and not really vocal organizers - like Varane or Godin , yet they would make any defense better.
Also, vocal leadership and organization is a trait that can be developed in certain players once they gain confidence eg. Pique (post Puyol's retirement).
Maybe Im echocing the sentiment of a few posters here, but I dont think our team would improve dramatically if we bought one top CB. I think defending is a team job and our central midfield is as culpable as our defense in giving away goals. I dont believe that the likes of Klopp and Guardiola are better defensive coaches than Mourinho and their defensive personnel arent world class players yet either (barring VVD and arguably Walker). However, their teams concede fewer goals than us. I think thats because of the ferocity and intensity with which the team tries to win the ball back. Their midfielders work hard and prevent their CBs from getting exposed. Our midfield cannot aid our defense in doing that - we have the most immobile/defensively disinterested CMs for that (Matic, Fellaini/Pogba). This is one of the reasons why we can never play with a high defensive line like Liverpool, Chelsea, Spurs and City do.
IMO we need to press and win the ball back rather than passively defending by blocking passing lanes. Moreover our forwards need to press better as well. The pressing of Lukaku and Martial is dire. When we change this, we will automatically improve our defense.
I do agree that we need an experienced defender and it would be great if that singing is a vocal organizer. But if we continue to not defend as a team, it wouldnt make much of a difference in the big games.
Not saying Koulibaly isnt a box office name or that Woodward only wants box office names but Pogba is way more "box office"
Pogba with his social media, the dabbing he started, the haircuts, the crazy long shot goals he scored for Juventus and the skills/tricks he did on the field.
That is a mot more box office than a defender who stops an attacker from scoring.
Great post.
Worthy. It's better than spend 2 or 3 of 30m on average defender. We should look at how Liverpool cut the crap of buying average centre back like Sakho or Matip or Lovren and they know that strategy didn't work so they spent huge on VVD.
All that started after he signed though. So yes it is marketable stuff but he wasnt doing it for Juventus. He did it when he was our marquee signing. So who knows what Koulibaly might do. He certainly has a big reputation in Italy
That's not true though. Pogba had a massive social media presence, was dabbing, had crazy haircuts, scored ridiculously good long range shots and was doing his tricks when he was still at Juve.
Purely from a marketing point of view, Pogba is streets ahead of Koulibaly and will always be. I'm not saying we shouldn't sign Koulibaly based on this. In fact, I think he's the sort of CB we need, but to suggest that Koulibaly has/could have as big a marketing impact as Pogba is just not accurate for me.
I'll be honest, I've not seen Koulibaly play but I'm hearing a transfer price being thrown about of £100 million. Van Djik cost Liverpool £75 million, and is the same age. Is Koulibaly really £25 million better than Van Djik? And don't forget Van Djik had PL experience at Southampton. We've not done well recently buying CB's who don't have PL experience.
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