Sky Germany via SW: In fact, they even offer up an example, suggesting Leverkusen will look for something similar to €80m plus €20m in bonuses.
Kai Havertz
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Yea that’s a fair post, and I agree with a lot of the principle of what you say. I agree that Pogba isn’t necessarily a ‘tika-taka’ type of player, although I’m sure he could be if he happened to be in such a system, but the facts are - that isn’t his game, I agree. I just don’t agree that he has some sort of childish urge to play defence splitting passes every time he gets the ball. If anything, he does a lot of play switches - left, to right etc. And a lot of short passes, but not of a tika taka nature. Just slow passes that take the team nowhere in particular. Ultimately, for all of his problems on a football pitch, I don’t think passing in any form is amongst them. He’s not a selfish player, he’s almost by definition, a passer. I think if we want a metronome type midfielder, it isn’t really him though, and this is why you often have three midfielders to share the load. Having one who has a propensity to pass forward and create chances is of course not a negative, but half of the issue has been the demand for him to be both players simultaneously. As much as Pogba is not Modric, Modric is also not Pogba, and cannot create chances from anywhere like he does either. What would be ideal is if you want both qualities, you have both players, but I think nobody actually wants Pogba to play less forward passes or create less chances, they just want him to do all of that whilst somehow playing conservatively at the same time. And chasing and tackling!
Midfield duties need to be shared. Pogba has for a while, been the only player in the 3 who has been expected to create. That begs the question of what the other two are there for. To make us defensively solid? Yet Pogba’s biggest criticism is that he doesn’t do enough of the defending! He’s in the team to create, and I never hear even his biggest critics say that he doesn’t create enough chances. So if we are so ‘easy to play through’, I would be directing that at the not one but two midfielders who are in the team for the main purpose of making us not easy to play through!
I love watching Havertz, and I agree with you that he has some different qualities to Pogba. I just don’t think that those qualities are in the defensive phase, so pairing him with Bruno may be offensively just as good or even better than pairing Pogba with Bruno - however surely people will still question balance? Ideally in a 3, I’d have one who is brilliant offensively, one brilliant defensively, and one who is pretty good at both, to help both. Either that or have a more equal divide across the 3, like Liverpool. If people think Pogba isn’t good enough defensively to partner Bruno, I don’t think Havertz is either.
Signing Havertz, Sancho, Bellingham and Van de Beek, whilst selling the likes of Lingard, Pereira, Sanchez (hopefully), Smalling and Jones would be something else.
Muppet flu of pandemic magnitude dectected.
I suggest wearing masks before entering these threads nowadays3 digits huh, so no chance of this happening then
Assuming Pogba will leave and I think his best position is a 8 and not a 10.
I keep pronouncing his name as Kai 'Have It', after that football ad where the fat bloke skies the ball into tomorrow and shouts 'have it'.
Why stop there. May as well get in Messi, Mbappe and Van Dijk while we're at it.
Just seen the Harvetz to Chelsea links. If they pull that off it looks like Roman is partying like it is 2004 again.
3 digits huh, so no chance of this happening then
Bargain at 100 quid tbh
Would be more than happy with just Sancho and one quality CM to be honest.
3 digits huh, so no chance of this happening then
3 digits? Don't wanna brag but I might just have enough in my savings account to buy him.
3 digits huh, so no chance of this happening then
Bayern must be close to going bust if they can’t afford to pay that
Lampard's not messing about.
If on the minute chance that we were to sign Havertz - I could actually see Martial being the odd man out potentially. I think any deal would be at the expense of signing Sancho, and Rashford and Greenwood right side will offer regular goals in such scenario. Havertz could then play as a false 9 in between.
I do not think Harvetz sees himself as a false 9. Can he play there? Sure. However, from watching him for the past 18 months and reading a few articles on him he comes across as seeing his long term future in midfield. The best comparison to think for him is Ballack. As a result, he is pretty much good enough to play anywhere in the midfield and can play as a CF of sorts too. That said, as he develops (and moves to a team where there are more top rank players) he is going to end up in a No.10/No.8/No.6 role.
That is personally why I am buying these Chelsea rumours as there he can play in the middle three and swap around with Mount for the No.6/No.8 positions like Ballack and Lampard used to do.
High roller!
Overrated. Got Chelsea flop within a year written all over him just like Ziyech. Sancho and Grealish please.
Wait you seriously think Grealish is better than Ziyech or Havertz?
Ziyech is vastly overrated. I predict he will struggle.
Overrated insofar as he was the best player on a team that made the CL semis, knocking out Real Madrid & Juventus? I'm sorry but it is the height of lunacy to think that Grealish is anywhere close to the player Ziyech is.
Calling him their best player is a bit of a stretch when that team had the likes of De Jong and De Ligt in it
Ask any Ajax fan, he's been their best player for three seasons now. Obviously De Jong and De Ligt were instrumental last season but Ziyech was still the straw that stirred the drink. This isn't to say that FdJ and MdL won't have surpassed him once they're of an equivalent age but I really don't think it's controversial in the slightest to say Ziyech has been the key to Ajax's recent success.
Two World Wars, One World Cup!
He was outstanding last year, claiming he was their best player for 3 years is controversial to say the least. Beginning of the 2018 season, a lot Ajax fans wanted him out of the club. There were big questions about his mentality. Let's see what happens.
Anyways, this is about Havertz.
Indeed, thank you
How is it controversial? He's just won Ajax's player of the year award for the 3rd year running. Also in 17-18 he won Dutch footballer of the year so I don't think your timeline is correct
Irritating comment to say the least. Grealish is a sublime player, always making a mark on the game even against the good teams. Ziyech is also a fine player, a very good shot on him.. but how much more does he have? Grealish has plenty. I think Ziyech will do well, but nowhere near what Hazard did for Chelsea. My point is, these players are quite similar in ability - your talk about lunacy is exactly that.
There is a reason why no top club went for Ziyech the last two seasons, neither did a top club move for him when he finally did go. Big question marks as to how he will produce in England and in the CL, when playing for Chelsea and not being part of the cinderella story with no pressure on him. Better players than him have failed when trying to step up from the little leagues.
I mean, Ziyech's best attributes are by no means his shooting - his brilliance lies in his passing ability and vision. His shooting is just a bonus. And no one is arguing that he's going to be another Hazard, aka the best player in the country. I would certainly argue that he's going to be better than Jack fecking Grealish, given that
one of these two has played in the final stages of the CL and been the best player whilst the other has played in the championship and for a team in the relegation zone.
Also, Bayern had agreed a transfer with Ziyech last summer but Ajax convinced him to stay one more year given the departures of De Jong and De Ligt - this is why he had a gentleman's agreement with the club allowing him to leave at a reasonable fee for Chelsea to take advantage of.
Also quite remarkable that you think Ajax had no pressure on them in the CL last year. Do you think playing in a championship playoff is more pressure than a CL semifinal?
Interesting conversation going on here in regard to Ziyech and Grealish. For my money both have a lot of potential to do well for a top PL side but both also have big question marks over them taking the step.
First Ziyech. For me he is a very good technical player in so far as passing and moving goes. However, there are big question marks over both his mentality and his durability. Further, as he has only been playing Dutch football and moonlighting in the Europe. For me he is someone that will have a similar impact as Willian has had for Chelsea. Everyone will say he is a good player but his stats will not be that great. Last note, he shoots from all over the place/from the most ridiculous angles and will have to stop that in the PL as Chelsea will not have the ball 70% of the time week in, week out.
Grealish. Has a lot of attributes that are loved by PL clubs. Technical but strong, works hard off the ball, able to ride out the rough stuff and get back up and play straight away, good vision. However, he also has some questionable habits; gives the ball away in dangerous positions from over playing/taking the wrong pass, does not always get his head up when he needs to, statistical output not the greatest (this includes his time in the Champo). Like Ziyech, I see him going one of two ways, 1) He becomes a new Robson, 2) He becomes a Joe Cole type figure.
Has for Harvetz. He is going to be a great player in my book, whilst Utd need a Sancho more, I think Harvetz will have the better career.
First Ziyech. For me he is a very good technical player in so far as passing and moving goes. However, there are big question marks over both his mentality and his durability. Further, as he has only been playing Dutch football and moonlighting in the Europe. For me he is someone that will have a similar impact as Willian has had for Chelsea. Everyone will say he is a good player but his stats will not be that great. Last note, he shoots from all over the place/from the most ridiculous angles and will have to stop that in the PL as Chelsea will not have the ball 70% of the time week in, week out.
Grealish. Has a lot of attributes that are loved by PL clubs. Technical but strong, works hard off the ball, able to ride out the rough stuff and get back up and play straight away, good vision. However, he also has some questionable habits; gives the ball away in dangerous positions from over playing/taking the wrong pass, does not always get his head up when he needs to, statistical output not the greatest (this includes his time in the Champo). Like Ziyech, I see him going one of two ways, 1) He becomes a new Robson, 2) He becomes a Joe Cole type figure.
Has for Harvetz. He is going to be a great player in my book, whilst Utd need a Sancho more, I think Harvetz will have the better career.
I think the Willian comparison isn't outlandish - both coming from poor leagues, success in the CL, diligence in tracking back, etc. Where I'd disagree though is that Ziyech has far far more end product than Willian ever has or will have - Ziyech has managed double digit league assists for the past 6 seasons running, whilst Willian's best total for a season is 7. This also isn't solely down to set plays - while Ziyech takes most if not all for Ajax, Willian has been Chelsea's main corner and set play taker for some time now (granted he is pretty shit at it). Agreed about Ziyech's shot patterns; I'd expect him to clean that up once surrounded by better teammates but we'll see.
Also I just want to state that I don't think Grealish is a bad player by any stretch - I admire him for staying at Villa when he could have gone to Spurs and I think he has a bright future. I just can't ever see him being the key cog on a team in the CL semis is all.
I mean even if you take away a third of his goals for Bosz system he'd at 21 in 60 over his age 19 and 20 seasons and that would be a fantastic record for an attacking midfielder (with a few games as a false 9) considering he has no major issues and ability in the air and playmaking, which is just a rare combo. Ballack was 10 in 34 as a 20 year old and probably starting deeper in midfield... of course that was in one of 4 regional 3rd divisons in Germany, so basically in 5th/6th division German.
Havertz is a prodigy. Now whether someone will read this in 2030 and laugh that he was once worth about 150M in the pre-Covid economy, 2nd in the world after Mbappe, I have no idea. Though I don't feel worried about that when I watch him. He makes a lot of sense for Liverpool as a #10 who can also rotate and take over for Firmino to extend the latter's career in that exhausting role or even play them both together when one of Salah or Mane is out and have Firmino go wider, if they don't sign a proper wide attacker like Werner.
If we sign those guys I'd imagine Pogba is out the door in the summer and it's either Havertz as a false 9 with Martial and Rashford in the Salah and Mane positions, or we just go for a proper 4-3-3 like City or Leicester and space the pitch for our midfielders:
Rashford-Martial-Greenwood (James, Ighalo)
--------Havertz----Bruno----------- (Van De Beek)
------------------Fred-------------------- (McTominay)
and maybe you try to bring a RW on loan for a year from a team trying to recoup some cash who doesn't want to sell until value goes up like (Bernardeschi, Malcolm, multiple Madrid guys) or someone cheap because their big move has gone poorly (Lozano, though he could also be a loan and buy option) or they're promising but unproven like Stengs and we can get them at a discount.
Decent chelsea advantage has to be that they can just offer Bayer someone useful for a 1-2 year loan. If they buy a CB they could offer them Tomori or maybe Van Ginkel (who is coming off a 14 in 28 season and if he's healthy could cover Havertz place in the squad if they just want to invest elsewhere or buy a young guy not ready to be handed a starting job instead of spending 1/3rd of the Havertz on a 10 to replace him immediately).
Was just reading some news story that in the training games Pogba was used as a 10 and that Ole plan to use him there. Who knows if it’s just coincidence because all the photos I saw had Bruno and Pogba on opposite teams.
If that is true then maybe Ole fancies a diamond 442 and if that is the case I could maybe see a place for Havertz in that set up but no place for Sancho if that’s even a thing.
I have wanted Kai since last season and will hate if he goes to Chelsea but I really just don’t see where we fit him in without serious bench rotation. Even he would have to look at United and wonder how many games he’ll get a season and is he Ok with being an option at this point or does he back he back himself to become a starter over Bruno, Pogba or whomever plays on the right in the 4231.
If that is true then maybe Ole fancies a diamond 442 and if that is the case I could maybe see a place for Havertz in that set up but no place for Sancho if that’s even a thing.
I have wanted Kai since last season and will hate if he goes to Chelsea but I really just don’t see where we fit him in without serious bench rotation. Even he would have to look at United and wonder how many games he’ll get a season and is he Ok with being an option at this point or does he back he back himself to become a starter over Bruno, Pogba or whomever plays on the right in the 4231.
He will be put on the RW and interchange with Martial/Rashford. He is 100% a backup if we fail getting Sancho.
I agree. Given that we play 433. But another option is a 4231 (a formation OGS obviously like). And with Havertz in there, I could see OGS try to push Martial into being more of a striker. While Martial has been good as a false nine, I could see him being even better as a more natural striker.
Havertz for Pogba and Donny van de Beek for Lingard and Pereira?
That is a real possibility IMO .
Possible, but not very likely. Would be okey with it. Really like Havertz.
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