Kai Havertz

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Zehner said:
You rated Dembele higher? Jesus. Every touch of that guy is like a coin flip. Could be brillant, could be the stuff for football fail compilations. And Sané wasn't even an undisputed starter at Schalke.

It's also quite rich to not see Chelsea in the top 10. The only clubs clearly better than them are Barca, Madrid, Bayern, City, Liverpool, PSG and maybe Juventus. They are definitely ahead of Atletico, Arsenal, Tottenham, Dortmund, Napoli and Inter. Strange perspective.
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I definitely rated Dembele higher, yes. His first touch isn't great, i give you that, but his speed, dribbling skills and finishing and passing with both feet were/are exceptional. It's a shame that he's a mental lunatic. Look at this and tell me he wasn't the most exciting attacking talent in 2017:


Regarding Sané: In his last year for Schalke he played 33 of 34 Bundesliga games and started in 26, pretty good for a 19/20 years old talent if you ask me. So what are you talking about?


And regarding the "Chelsea is no top 10 club at the moment" statement, i can again just link to this: https://de.uefa.com/memberassociations/uefarankings/club/#/yr/2020
There are many things football fans can argue about, there are many different valid opinions, but it's certainly no "strange perspective" to judge Chelsea the way I did, because luckily the UEFA has an instrument to objectively judge the performance of a club in the last 5 years.

Based on what metric are Chelsea exactly "definitely ahead" of Atletico or Dortmund? Thats a ridiculous statement.
 
BayernFan87 said:
I definitely rated Dembele higher, yes. His first touch isn't great, i give you that, but his speed, dribbling skills and finishing and passing with both feet were/are exceptional. It's a shame that he's a mental lunatic. Look at this and tell me he wasn't the most exciting attacking talent in 2017:


Regarding Sané: In his last year for Schalke he played 33 of 34 Bundesliga games and started in 26, pretty good for a 19/20 years old talent if you ask me. So what are you talking about?


And regarding the "Chelsea is no top 10 club at the moment" statement, i can again just link to this: https://de.uefa.com/memberassociations/uefarankings/club/#/yr/2020
There are many things football fans can argue about, there are many different valid opinions, but it's certainly no "strange perspective" to judge Chelsea the way I did, because luckily the UEFA has an instrument to objectively judge the performance of a club in the last 5 years.
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I witnessed it live and I tell you I don't think he was the hottest prospect but the most overrated one. I predicted his failure at Barca from the very beginning since he's the worst possible fit. Technically completely inconsistent, a hollywood player that looks great in compilations but underwhelming if you pay attention to all the bullshit he produces.

And I'm sorry, if you think Sevilla, Donetsk, Lyon and Dortmund are bigger clubs than Chelsea and Atletico than City and Paris, I can't help you. You're making a fool out of yourselves. This is a really weird ranking to go by for this kind of discussion.
 
Zehner said:
And I'm sorry, if you think Sevilla, Donetsk, Lyon and Dortmund are bigger clubs than Chelsea and Atletico than City and Paris, I can't help you. You're making a fool out of yourselves. This is a really weird ranking to go by for this kind of discussion.
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No, that's the most objective and fair comparison there is.

A club isn't "bigger" (what does this even mean? more fans? more money? more throphies in the whole history? more trophies in recent years? better squad right now?) as another club, because he spends more money. A club is in my opinion bigger than another club, if he is more successful on a domestic (you obviously have to take the strength of the league in consideration) and especially on an international level.
All you do is complain, I'm giving a reasonable source for my opinion, you haven't stated a single metric for your opinion.

But I'm just tired of discussing with you or even reading your discussions with other guys, especially with Bayern fans. Your hate for our club also seems to translate to you obnoxious habit of seemingly having to disagree with every Bayern fan, just because he is a Bayern fan.

Please don't respond any further to my posts, not here and not in other threads, thank you.
 
BayernFan87 said:
No, that's the most objective and fair comparison there is.

A club isn't "bigger" (what does this even mean? more fans? more money? more throphies in the whole history? more trophies in recent years? better squad right now?) as another club, because he spends more money. A club is in my opinion bigger than another club, if he is more successful on a domestic (you obviously have to take the strength of the league in consideration) and especially on an international level.
All you do is complain, I'm giving a reasonable source for my opinion, you haven't stated a single metric for your opinion.

But I'm just tired of discussing with you or even reading your discussions with other guys, especially with Bayern fans. Your hate for our club also seems to translate to you obnoxious habit of seemingly having to disagree with every Bayern fan, just because he is a Bayern fan.

Please don't respond any further to my posts, not here and not in other threads, thank you.
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And Seville is bigger than man utd,Liverpool ,arsenal,Tottenham and Chelsea too. Good luck with that ranking.
 
BayernFan87 said:
No, that's the most objective and fair comparison there is.

A club isn't "bigger" (what does this even mean? more fans? more money? more throphies in the whole history? more trophies in recent years? better squad right now?) as another club, because he spends more money. A club is in my opinion bigger than another club, if he is more successful on a domestic......
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Sorry to interrupt your conversation with someone else.

But the UEFA club coefficient does not take into account the domestic performances of any club. Say, for example, Liverpool go on to win the Premier Leauge by 114 points for the next five consecutive seasons, destroying every other English club for five long years, but are eliminated in the CL in the first round of every season, they'd be ranked much lower in that coefficient compared with other clubs who were successful in Europe in those five years.

The club coefficient is a measure of a club's European success (the two competitions). It tells you nothing about anything else.
BayernFan87 said:
.... (you obviously have to take the strength of the league in consideration) and especially on an international level.
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You're mixing up two different things.
This is a different measure, known as the 'country coefficient', which is used to determine the number of teams that are allowed in European cup competitions per country.
 
BayernFan87 said:
No, that's the most objective and fair comparison there is.

A club isn't "bigger" (what does this even mean? more fans? more money? more throphies in the whole history? more trophies in recent years? better squad right now?) as another club, because he spends more money. A club is in my opinion bigger than another club, if he is more successful on a domestic (you obviously have to take the strength of the league in consideration) and especially on an international level.
All you do is complain, I'm giving a reasonable source for my opinion, you haven't stated a single metric for your opinion.

But I'm just tired of discussing with you or even reading your discussions with other guys, especially with Bayern fans. Your hate for our club also seems to translate to you obnoxious habit of seemingly having to disagree with every Bayern fan, just because he is a Bayern fan.

Please don't respond any further to my posts, not here and not in other threads, thank you.
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UEFA coefficient as a measurement of how big a club is :lol: . Now I've seen it all.
 
BayernFan87 said:
Hm, i feel that just looking at scorer points doesn't do young Götze justice. His dribbling skills and link-up play were exceptional and if i remember correctly he often provided the second to last pass to the flanks to Schmelzer/Pisczek.
Let's also not forget that Götze didn't take any penalties or free kicks to boost his stats.

For me Götze was the biggest talent in german football since Deisler. Really, really sad how both careers developed.
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I never considered Götze as big a talent as Toni Kroos and I hated the board every second since it became clear we wouldn't extend him. All because Kroos didn't take a penalty in 2012. Uli and his retarded grudges...
 
I've seen people mention him as a cross between Ozil & Ballack recently - feck me if that's the case we're in for some player eh?
 
adamwest said:
I've seen people mention him as a cross between Ozil & Ballack recently - feck me if that's the case we're in for some player eh?
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He very much reminds me of the early, attacking minded Ballack but with a bit more elegance and better technique I would say. Unless Lamapard tries to shoe horn him into a deep lying playmaker role I would say you definitely got a very hot player midfielder right there.
 
NoLogo said:
He very much reminds me of the early, attacking minded Ballack but with a bit more elegance and better technique I would say. Unless Lamapard tries to shoe horn him into a deep lying playmaker role I would say you definitely got a very hot player midfielder right there.
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I think hes gonna be a cam or one of 2 cams with mount. Ziyech will deffo be on the right his inswinging cross is a weapon.
 
TheLord said:
Sorry to interrupt your conversation with someone else.

But the UEFA club coefficient does not take into account the domestic performances of any club. Say, for example, Liverpool go on to win the Premier Leauge by 114 points for the next five consecutive seasons, destroying every other English club for five long years, but are eliminated in the CL in the first round of every season, they'd be ranked much lower in that coefficient compared with other clubs who were successful in Europe in those five years.

The club coefficient is a measure of a club's European success (the two competitions). It tells you nothing about anything else.

You're mixing up two different things.
This is a different measure, known as the 'country coefficient', which is used to determine the number of teams that are allowed in European cup competitions per country.
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Maybe I worded it wrong, English is not my first language, sorry.

I meant that the domestic and international success should be considered for how "big" a club is right now and that the UEFA club coefficient is the most objective and fair tool to measure the latter one.
 
Orni saying its just above 70m euros fixed plus bonuses. We paid more for Pepe.
Great signing for Chelsea and at a good price too.
 
BayernFan87 said:
Maybe I worded it wrong, English is not my first language, sorry.

I meant that the domestic and international success should be considered for how "big" a club is right now and that the UEFA club coefficient is the most objective and fair tool to measure the latter one.
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That's my objection. Because the UEFA club coefficient does NOT take into account domestic success, it isn't a good tool to measure how good a team is.

A team like Porto can freakily win two Champions League in a row and suddenly have a very inflated ranking. Take Seville's position in the current UEFA table, for example. They are ranked higher than Liverpool! In what way?

I fail to understand a single reason why they should be ranked higher than Liverpool in the context of our discussion, other than being consistent performers in the second-tier Europa League. They're not good enough for the Champions League. In the domestic front, they've finished 4th, 6th, and 7th in the last three seasons in La Liga. They are miles away from the other top teams in the Champions League like Dortmund and Liverpool and yet, they're ranked higher than both.

However, I understand the point you're trying to make, as there aren't many other sensible tools to assess how 'big' a club is right now. But that doesn't mean this tool is any good to assess this metric. The total squad valuation (market value) is probably a better tool in that it is more consistent in its measurement. Again, this tool has many weaknesses.
 
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They're going to score a lot of goals next season. Front 2 of Werner and Havertz, Ziyech and Pulisic creating chances and good attacking output from the fullbacks too. Saving grace will hlbe Lampard as manager IMO.
 
TheLord said:
Never heard of it before, but looks like a reasonable tool.
If they provided better details on how the computation is done - like how the 'k value' is determined - I would be more enthused.
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I think the K factor is just used to scale things according to the current best team, but I could be wrong. At its core it's basically an ELO score using the last 3 years of results.
 
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