Kai Havertz

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How do we exactly play all 3 in the same 11? We can't have a midfield comprising of havertz, vdb and bruno that will be a massacre. None of havertz, vdb or sancho will come here to sit on the bench, they will expect to start.

The thing for VdB and Havertz is this: which top club can afford them and they expect to be first choice automatically? Sancho I agree, and he will surely be first choice for us since our RW has been a problem for so long. Havertz being our 2nd choice forward/AM/RW after Martial and Bruno (and Sancho hopefully), while VdB being our 2nd choice midfielder/AM still means plenty of games for them.

If they want to be greater player than there are now and become among the world's best, then they need to be able to earn their place through quality competition in the squad. Same goes for the current players that we have now. That said, Sancho and VdB will be good enough for me, given that we still have lots of young players who need game time too like Hannibal and Greenwood.
 
Roman won the lottery or what l0l

Did Chelsea not make a loss last year in their accounts? If so, they must finally be preparing a mass clear out, rather than the usual loaning out players.
 
Roman won the lottery or what l0l

It's not that Roman won the lottery, it's that United don't deliver the money to get any player until it's too late and he's flown away to another club more determined than us!
 
Did Chelsea not make a loss last year in their accounts? If so, they must finally be preparing a mass clear out, rather than the usual loaning out players.
yes - their financial year runs till the 30th June
They recorded a 98m loss 2018/2019 (though they dis spend 280m on players in that financial year - (including Kepa, Jorghino, Pulisic and Kovacic) ... this year I suspect you will see a big profit as they will have received the morata money, the hazard money and due to the transfer ban have spent very little (up to 30th june as I dont think werner / zeiych will go through in this financial year)
 
If he's interested in joing we'd be nuts to not do all in our power to sign him. I've heard a few interviews with Norwegian players in Bundesliga this season, they're all raving about his current level and his potential.
 
yes - their financial year runs till the 30th June
They recorded a 98m loss 2018/2019 (though they dis spend 280m on players in that financial year - (including Kepa, Jorghino, Pulisic and Kovacic) ... this year I suspect you will see a big profit as they will have received the morata money, the hazard money and due to the transfer ban have spent very little (up to 30th june as I dont think werner / zeiych will go through in this financial year)

Ah, very good points. Thanks for clearing that up.
 
His name reminds me of two things.
Wayne Rooney's son Kai.
And Pogba's old club Havre.
A good sign?
 
His name reminds me of two things.
Wayne Rooney's son Kai.
And Pogba's old club Havre.
A good sign?
Woodward's name remind me of two things.
Wood sounds like "would".
Ward is in words like "nut ward".
A good sign?
 
Sign him up if we can, why wouldn't you? If nothing else it would make RM angry.
 
How does Havertz work in our midfield providing Pogba leaves ? For Leverkusen he's played on the right and behind the striker. Unless Bruno will replace Pogba as an 8, it doesn't make sense to go for Kai. Also his price would mean to have a direct choice between him and Sancho not both. I can only see the club spending 100 million euros this summer, anything further is predicated on Pogbas decision to stay / leave.
 
How does Havertz work in our midfield providing Pogba leaves ? For Leverkusen he's played on the right and behind the striker. Unless Bruno will replace Pogba as an 8, it doesn't make sense to go for Kai. Also his price would mean to have a direct choice between him and Sancho not both. I can only see the club spending 100 million euros this summer, anything further is predicated on Pogbas decision to stay / leave.

He is a creative midfielder who links the midfield and attack. If Pogba leaves, I can see him being the replacement for Pogba.

-----------Fred/Matic
----Havertz---------Bruno
Sancho--Martial--Rashford

Imagine this team :drool:
 
He is a creative midfielder who links the midfield and attack. If Pogba leaves, I can see him being the replacement for Pogba.

-----------Fred/Matic
----Havertz---------Bruno
Sancho--Martial--Rashford

Imagine this team :drool:
after one game everyone remembers that neither Fred nor Matic can play this role as single DM and endless debates about lineups would continue. The front 5 is obviously very strong.
 
after one game everyone remembers that neither Fred nor Matic can play this role as single DM and endless debates about lineups would continue. The front 5 is obviously very strong.

You make a good point. I think against weaker teams(which is like 75% of teams we play against) which set up a low defensive block Fred/Matic would be fine in that role, and Havertz/Pobga and Bruno's creativity will help unlock defences. Against stronger teams we can lineup like this :

-----------Fred/Matic
--McTominay-----Bruno
Sancho--Martial--Rashford

With Havertz able to play in Bruno(As creative cm) or Martial's place( false #9). I also think we should get Van De Beek as backup if we can get him for around 30-35M to take Andreas/Lingard position in the squad.

With games coming thick and fast having many options with quality players can only help.
 
How does Havertz work in our midfield providing Pogba leaves ? For Leverkusen he's played on the right and behind the striker. Unless Bruno will replace Pogba as an 8, it doesn't make sense to go for Kai. Also his price would mean to have a direct choice between him and Sancho not both. I can only see the club spending 100 million euros this summer, anything further is predicated on Pogbas decision to stay / leave.

Wouldn’t be ideal tbh. If I’m being totally honest, and I know everyone is on a Bruno wave right now - but he’s not the midfielder I’d have signed personally. If we were looking for someone to partner Pogba in front of a DM, I would have gone for Saúl or a similar type of player, who is not a 10, but can contribute equally going backwards and forward. If we were looking for a Pogba replacement as a lead attacking midfielder - then I’d have preferred someone who I think is of a higher level in terms of talent/ceiling - like Havertz or Odegaard. Bruno and Pogba are not the most natural fit, nor would Bruno and Havertz be.

I could be wrong on Bruno, just my early inclination is that he’s more Eriksen than De Bruyne calibre. I think Pogba is better than that level, and if you think he hasn’t worked out or whatever, then first choice would be to try to replace him with someone else of that level if we can. I think Bruno may be a class just below personally, and perhaps if we sold Pogba and bought Havertz - I’d still think that Bruno may well end up a squad player while we eventually look for a Saúl or Bellingham type to partner Havertz in a double 8.

Of course, early days with Bruno, and I hope he eventually levels out at a level above what I think he will - but it’s just my impression. There’s nothing wrong with Christian Eriksen of course, but I don’t think he’s quite highest bracket.
 
You make a good point. I think against weaker teams(which is like 75% of teams we play against) which set up a low defensive block Fred/Matic would be fine in that role, and Havertz/Pobga and Bruno's creativity will help unlock defences. Against stronger teams we can lineup like this :

-----------Fred/Matic
--McTominay-----Bruno
Sancho--Martial--Rashford

With Havertz able to play in Bruno(As creative cm) or Martial's place( false #9). I also think we should get Van De Beek as backup if we can get him for around 30-35M to take Andreas/Lingard position in the squad.

With games coming thick and fast having many options with quality players can only help.

Sancho, Havertz AND Van de Beek! That's nearly £250m worth of players in a year when we already have to contend with the financial impact of COVID-19 and £184m worth of outstanding purchase obligations!
 
Sancho, Havertz AND Van de Beek! That's nearly £250m worth of players in a year when we already have to contend with the financial impact of COVID-19 and £184m worth of outstanding purchase obligations!

Thats true. Here's what I think :

Havertz : 90M
Sancho : 100M
VDB : 40M

Total : 230M

Sell :

Pogba : 100-120M

And then sell the likes of Smalling, Jones, Rojo, Sanchez, Lingard, Pereira and Mata. I belive we can get 50-60M from these sales.

So net spend : ~ 50-60M.
 
Thats true. Here's what I think :

Havertz : 90M
Sancho : 100M
VDB : 40M

Total : 230M

Sell :

Pogba : 100-120M

And then sell the likes of Smalling, Jones, Rojo, Sanchez, Lingard, Pereira and Mata. I belive we can get 50-60M from these sales.

So net spend : ~ 50-60M.

Who do you plan to sell Pogba to for ‘100-120m?’. Jeff Bezos?
 
Thats true. Here's what I think :

Havertz : 90M
Sancho : 100M
VDB : 40M

Total : 230M

Sell :

Pogba : 100-120M

And then sell the likes of Smalling, Jones, Rojo, Sanchez, Lingard, Pereira and Mata. I belive we can get 50-60M from these sales.

So net spend : ~ 50-60M.

So many of our fans living in a fantasy world.

Who do you think will buy Pogba?

Who do you think will buy Jones, Smalling, Lingard, Mata considering their considerable wage?

The club has said they will not spend £100m figures on one individual player.
 
Wow Chelsea are not messing around.

Ziyech, Werner and potentially Chilwell AND Havertz!
 
Wouldn’t be ideal tbh. If I’m being totally honest, and I know everyone is on a Bruno wave right now - but he’s not the midfielder I’d have signed personally. If we were looking for someone to partner Pogba in front of a DM, I would have gone for Saúl or a similar type of player, who is not a 10, but can contribute equally going backwards and forward. If we were looking for a Pogba replacement as a lead attacking midfielder - then I’d have preferred someone who I think is of a higher level in terms of talent/ceiling - like Havertz or Odegaard. Bruno and Pogba are not the most natural fit, nor would Bruno and Havertz be.

I could be wrong on Bruno, just my early inclination is that he’s more Eriksen than De Bruyne calibre. I think Pogba is better than that level, and if you think he hasn’t worked out or whatever, then first choice would be to try to replace him with someone else of that level if we can. I think Bruno may be a class just below personally, and perhaps if we sold Pogba and bought Havertz - I’d still think that Bruno may well end up a squad player while we eventually look for a Saúl or Bellingham type to partner Havertz in a double 8.

Of course, early days with Bruno, and I hope he eventually levels out at a level above what I think he will - but it’s just my impression. There’s nothing wrong with Christian Eriksen of course, but I don’t think he’s quite highest bracket.

Don't know about that. Havertz is a very versatile player that fits to a lot of different midfielder types. The comparisons with Pogba in terms of playstyle are understandable since both players are tall midfielders who produce good numbers, but I think if you watch them closely there are still significant differences. I think Pogba's biggest issue and the main reason why I don't really like him as a player is that he doesn't participate that well in the ball circulation of a team. He gets the ball and tries to do something special - a defense splitting pass, a great finish or a nice dribble. That comes with a certain reluctance to play easy passes and as a consequence, he takes too long on the ball, often ending up shielding or losing it when he could've played a quick sideways pass to team mate. Havertz is different and often achieves passing accuracies around 90% - especially when he is played in CM - and most of the time tries to "get rid of the ball" as soon as possible. You watch him play and he reminds you more of a Barca midfielder than a typical box to box player 90% of the time. It's only his timing and runs in the box that distinguish him from such midfielders, IMO.

I think that's what's really special about him. We've seen great, great midfielders that keep the ball moving around the pitch and dominate the midfield, like Iniesta, Modric, Xavi, Kroos, etc., and we've also seen midfielders who are very, very good at scoring, like Ballack, Gerrard, Lampard or also Pogba, but there are very few who combine both traits at a world class level. And while I think Havertz, also due to his height, won't get to the same heights in terms of ball retention and pressing resticence Xavi, Iniesta and co. achieved, he'll still be able to become as good as Kroos in that matter while simultaneously producing numbers as good or probably even better than Lampard, Gerrard and the likes. That is if he doesn't transform to a false nine which at the moment seems a real possibility.
 
Did Chelsea not make a loss last year in their accounts? If so, they must finally be preparing a mass clear out, rather than the usual loaning out players.

A note in the last accounts stated that post 31/5 /19 Chelsea had sold players for a profit of £115 million. That included the Hazard sale and mainly academy graduates. The Hazard deal will continue to yield around an extra £5 million or so a season for a few years. Some of the add ons were for things such as RM getting CL qualification.

There was a couple of youngsters sold in January window ( Lamptey & Hector)for around £15 million The only incoming in 2019/ 20 was Kovacic he cost around £40 mill.



The sale of Morata wont go through till 1/7 at the earliest and Chelsea had a buy back clause for Boga which Sasssuso have now bought out .I read that they have paid £5 million for it. Add that sum to the original fee of £3.5 million and based on rumours he will be sold in the next window for a tidy profit.

Then you have Pasalic at Atalanta who will be taking up the option to buy for £12.5 milion and also Castillo at Ajax who have a buy option of circa £3 million which it seems they will be taking up.

Chelsea have been clearing the decks prior to the rule changes limiting the number of players you can have out on loan. The likes of Moses, Rahman and Bakayako will probably be sold as well as a number of the current squad.Some are suggesting that 7-9 could be on their way out. In that number are Zouma, Christensen , Batshuayi, Alonso or Emerson, Kante and Barkley.

In effect even without touching the Hazard money the transfer dealings in 2019/20 and 20/21 will probably pay for themselves and yes the market will be quite depressed

It does seem that the decision to cancel the stadium project and the transfer ban could have worked well and truly in Chelsea favour.
 
Chelsea are in a fantastic position. A plethora of good young players, 2 years worth of transfer cash and the Hazard and Morata money burning a hole in their pockets.

They will be a huge threat to us next season almost certainly and could even go one better than that and really challenge the top 2.

We are getting better gradually and have some tremendous young talent too but don't expect us to match Chelsea this summer. Just not plausible.
 
Don't know about that. Havertz is a very versatile player that fits to a lot of different midfielder types. The comparisons with Pogba in terms of playstyle are understandable since both players are tall midfielders who produce good numbers, but I think if you watch them closely there are still significant differences. I think Pogba's biggest issue and the main reason why I don't really like him as a player is that he doesn't participate that well in the ball circulation of a team. He gets the ball and tries to do something special - a defense splitting pass, a great finish or a nice dribble. That comes with a certain reluctance to play easy passes and as a consequence, he takes too long on the ball, often ending up shielding or losing it when he could've played a quick sideways pass to team mate. Havertz is different and often achieves passing accuracies around 90% - especially when he is played in CM - and most of the time tries to "get rid of the ball" as soon as possible. You watch him play and he reminds you more of a Barca midfielder than a typical box to box player 90% of the time. It's only his timing and runs in the box that distinguish him from such midfielders, IMO.

I think that's what's really special about him. We've seen great, great midfielders that keep the ball moving around the pitch and dominate the midfield, like Iniesta, Modric, Xavi, Kroos, etc., and we've also seen midfielders who are very, very good at scoring, like Ballack, Gerrard, Lampard or also Pogba, but there are very few who combine both traits at a world class level. And while I think Havertz, also due to his height, won't get to the same heights in terms of ball retention and pressing resticence Xavi, Iniesta and co. achieved, he'll still be able to become as good as Kroos in that matter while simultaneously producing numbers as good or probably even better than Lampard, Gerrard and the likes. That is if he doesn't transform to a false nine which at the moment seems a real possibility.

I respect your assessment, but I don’t agree with the analysis of Pogba’s game. He circulates the ball plenty. There is some sort of insinuation that when he receives the ball, there are two outcomes; either he tries a chance-creating pass (or Hollywood ball for those who try to put a derogatory spin on trying to create a chance) - or he ‘dallies and loses the ball’. That’s it. He passes the ball short plenty, and probably completes the most passes in our midfield.

The difference with someone like a Xavi and Iniesta or Modric is that systems circulate the ball in this way, not individuals as such. We haven’t been a ‘pass and move’ team. We have typically been a team of statues. ‘Zombie passing’ is a popular phrase even coined by one of Pogba’s biggest critics on here. I don’t think you can have the type of ball circulation you speak of in such a team, until the entire culture of it changes. And for this reason, I have been an advocate for extra creativity alongside Pogba for a while, and why we should see benefit with him and Bruno on the ball. Good, technical midfielders need at least one other to play with - to bounce the ball off each other, to play short 5-yard one-two’s. I’m not sure we have been drilled in such a way. The poorest part of our offence in recent years has been our movement, more so than the lack of ability of our players I think.

Back to Havertz, he is a better goalscorer than Pogba, clearly, but he isn’t better at passing the ball, if that’s what you’re suggesting. He also doesn’t have great intensity to his game, so I think that Havertz and Bruno would leave the same defensive questionmarks as Pogba and Bruno, whether they are identical players or not. I think we would still ask the question about ‘balance’ in the midfield, and I think that if we then took the decision to bring in a more defensive midfielder to balance things, assuming he developed as hoped, Havertz is the one who will stay in the team and Bruno would not. Hence why I think Havertz should have been a replacement for Pogba if we are selling, and the signing of Bruno should have been the ‘more defensive midfielder’ I mentioned, as that would give us the better XI. If we were to keep Pogba, then this more defensive midfielder would have still been the more ideal addition to come in and partner him.

Ultimately, I think we are in a position where we can hopefully make it work with Bruno and Pogba - but it wasn’t the most ideal set up. If Pogba were to leave, the chance would be there to get a Saúl for example to balance the midfield better, alongside Bruno. Which would leave Bruno being Pogba’s replacement, effectively. Which would leave the question in my mind that I’d have rather got Havertz than Bruno for that role, or even Odegaard. When the dust all settles, maybe in 6-18 months, my personal view is that I’d see Bruno more a squad player level for a CL chasing side, at least as the sole creative midfielder. He could still be okay of course, but I’d expert Havertz to be at a Bayern and Odegaard at Real and to be considered a level above. Although hopefully not of course!
 
Chelsea are in a fantastic position. A plethora of good young players, 2 years worth of transfer cash and the Hazard and Morata money burning a hole in their pockets.

They will be a huge threat to us next season almost certainly and could even go one better than that and really challenge the top 2.

We are getting better gradually and have some tremendous young talent too but don't expect us to match Chelsea this summer. Just not plausible.
Yet we also have a team of talented young players, and stuffed them 3 times this year... Maybe we aren't so bad?
 
So many of our fans living in a fantasy world.

Who do you think will buy Pogba?

Who do you think will buy Jones, Smalling, Lingard, Mata considering their considerable wage?

The club has said they will not spend £100m figures on one individual player.

Too many FM, FIFA or fantasy football I guess. Every summer you will see bunch of football fans behaving like that, dreaming of buying a few worlclass players for 200-300m, and then somehow some team some very generous managers would do us a big favour helping us clearing all our deadwoods and giving us back 50-100m in return too.
 
Too many FM, FIFA or fantasy football I guess. Every summer you will see bunch of football fans behaving like that, dreaming of buying a few worlclass players for 200-300m, and then somehow some team some very generous managers would do us a big favour helping us clearing all our deadwoods and giving us back 50-100m in return too.

Exactly, the lessons have never been learnt. We will not spend £2/300m.

We published a loss not too long ago.

We are in the middle of a pandemic.

We have one of the highest wage bills as it is.
 
A note in the last accounts stated that post 31/5 /19 Chelsea had sold players for a profit of £115 million. That included the Hazard sale and mainly academy graduates. The Hazard deal will continue to yield around an extra £5 million or so a season for a few years. Some of the add ons were for things such as RM getting CL qualification.

There was a couple of youngsters sold in January window ( Lamptey & Hector)for around £15 million The only incoming in 2019/ 20 was Kovacic he cost around £40 mill.



The sale of Morata wont go through till 1/7 at the earliest and Chelsea had a buy back clause for Boga which Sasssuso have now bought out .I read that they have paid £5 million for it. Add that sum to the original fee of £3.5 million and based on rumours he will be sold in the next window for a tidy profit.

Then you have Pasalic at Atalanta who will be taking up the option to buy for £12.5 milion and also Castillo at Ajax who have a buy option of circa £3 million which it seems they will be taking up.

Chelsea have been clearing the decks prior to the rule changes limiting the number of players you can have out on loan. The likes of Moses, Rahman and Bakayako will probably be sold as well as a number of the current squad.Some are suggesting that 7-9 could be on their way out. In that number are Zouma, Christensen , Batshuayi, Alonso or Emerson, Kante and Barkley.

In effect even without touching the Hazard money the transfer dealings in 2019/20 and 20/21 will probably pay for themselves and yes the market will be quite depressed

It does seem that the decision to cancel the stadium project and the transfer ban could have worked well and truly in Chelsea favour.

Thanks for this. Quite an insight. Chelsea having been quite good in terms of transfer businesses and have some good operators.
 
Chelsea are in a fantastic position. A plethora of good young players, 2 years worth of transfer cash and the Hazard and Morata money burning a hole in their pockets.

They will be a huge threat to us next season almost certainly and could even go one better than that and really challenge the top 2.

We are getting better gradually and have some tremendous young talent too but don't expect us to match Chelsea this summer. Just not plausible.

Chelsea indeed will be in a fantastic position...but we will be just fine!
 
Yet we also have a team of talented young players, and stuffed them 3 times this year... Maybe we aren't so bad?

Exactly we are not. Ole is slowly working us towards something exciting and sustainable.

I was merely pointing out that Chelsea will be the exception to the rule in the transfer window for all the reasons given above. Don't think they will get Havertz though. However if they did that would be one hell of a coup for them.
 
I respect your assessment, but I don’t agree with the analysis of Pogba’s game. He circulates the ball plenty. There is some sort of insinuation that when he receives the ball, there are two outcomes; either he tries a chance-creating pass (or Hollywood ball for those who try to put a derogatory spin on trying to create a chance) - or he ‘dallies and loses the ball’. That’s it. He passes the ball short plenty, and probably completes the most passes in our midfield.

The difference with someone like a Xavi and Iniesta or Modric is that systems circulate the ball in this way, not individuals as such. We haven’t been a ‘pass and move’ team. We have typically been a team of statues. ‘Zombie passing’ is a popular phrase even coined by one of Pogba’s biggest critics on here. I don’t think you can have the type of ball circulation you speak of in such a team, until the entire culture of it changes. And for this reason, I have been an advocate for extra creativity alongside Pogba for a while, and why we should see benefit with him and Bruno on the ball. Good, technical midfielders need at least one other to play with - to bounce the ball off each other, to play short 5-yard one-two’s. I’m not sure we have been drilled in such a way. The poorest part of our offence in recent years has been our movement, more so than the lack of ability of our players I think.

Back to Havertz, he is a better goalscorer than Pogba, clearly, but he isn’t better at passing the ball, if that’s what you’re suggesting. He also doesn’t have great intensity to his game, so I think that Havertz and Bruno would leave the same defensive questionmarks as Pogba and Bruno, whether they are identical players or not. I think we would still ask the question about ‘balance’ in the midfield, and I think that if we then took the decision to bring in a more defensive midfielder to balance things, assuming he developed as hoped, Havertz is the one who will stay in the team and Bruno would not. Hence why I think Havertz should have been a replacement for Pogba if we are selling, and the signing of Bruno should have been the ‘more defensive midfielder’ I mentioned, as that would give us the better XI. If we were to keep Pogba, then this more defensive midfielder would have still been the more ideal addition to come in and partner him.

Ultimately, I think we are in a position where we can hopefully make it work with Bruno and Pogba - but it wasn’t the most ideal set up. If Pogba were to leave, the chance would be there to get a Saúl for example to balance the midfield better, alongside Bruno. Which would leave Bruno being Pogba’s replacement, effectively. Which would leave the question in my mind that I’d have rather got Havertz than Bruno for that role, or even Odegaard. When the dust all settles, maybe in 6-18 months, my personal view is that I’d see Bruno more a squad player level for a CL chasing side, at least as the sole creative midfielder. He could still be okay of course, but I’d expert Havertz to be at a Bayern and Odegaard at Real and to be considered a level above. Although hopefully not of course!

Well, the system obviously plays a huge role, no doubt, but some midfielders just have that type of game in their DNA. You can drop Kroos in any team of the world and he ends up with 90+% passing accuracy, I believe. It's a mixture of technical ability (which Pogba possesses, obviously), vision (he's got that, too) and risk assessment in very short amounts of time (not so much, if you ask me). Basically the ability to resist the urge to play a defense splitting pass after you spotted it - or to play forward in general - because another route would be the wiser one, after all. Some players have that in their DNA, others don't. Modric is a perfect example of that. You could see that he's a perfect midfielder for a progressive possession oriented setup even back at Tottenham. With Havertz it's the same. Even when he debuted under Roger Schmidt (who's pretty much the opposite of Guardiola tactically) you immediately thought that he would make a great "tiki taka player". There are quite many players who just play that way but Pogba is none of them since his intuition tells him otherwise. That's not even necessarily wrong and may be even better in certain systems, but if your most important player has a habit of playing high risk passes prematurely, that obviously affects your team's ability to control the midfield and it makes it harder for fellow midfielders to do so. I mean, there are not many midfielders in top teams in the world who can afford passing accuracies around 82%. The only one is probably Kevin de Bruyne at City, the team with probably the highest average possession in the world and ferocious counter pressing.

So I think that definitely affects your midfields perceived ability to retain possession and utilize it constructively. And I'd also say that a lot of players look harder to connect then they actually are.
 
This is the one I most want to happen, we are in need for a left footed attacker that can play on our right side, and can also cover for Bruno too

Cover for Bruno? Pogba can play there is required.

We just signed Bruno and you already want a cover for him?
 
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