Just Stop Oil

[SilentWitness]

They do those things, they just also do other things like civil resistance. Makes sense to me to block roads and trains when oil is still fundamental to both industries and it's additionally causing a nuisance to everyone.

Problem is that not enough of the common person cares enough about climate change yet that this nuisance can be understood in regards to other forms of protest which also cause civil disorder.

 

[Jippy]

They do those things, they just also do other things like civil resistance. Makes sense to me to block roads and trains when oil is still fundamental to both industries and it's additionally causing a nuisance to everyone.

Problem is that not enough of the common person cares enough about climate change yet that this nuisance can be understood in regards to other forms of protest which also cause civil disorder.

Surely blocking trains would be counterproductive, given they're touted as a way to get drivers off the roads? Or at least they would be if they weren't so stupidly expensive.

I'm sure the protestors will get greatly reduced sentences on appeal, given the outcry at the severity.

Tbh I think they're a bunch of wankers for attacking art.

 

[Camilo]

They do those things, they just also do other things like civil resistance. Makes sense to me to block roads and trains when oil is still fundamental to both industries and it's additionally causing a nuisance to everyone.

Problem is that not enough of the common person cares enough about climate change yet that this nuisance can be understood in regards to other forms of protest which also cause civil disorder.

We're never going to care in the UK! Have you met us?! In a few decades we'll all be in our electric cars, be powered by solar, wind and nuclear, and that'll be that. It's not going to go any quicker than it already is!

 

[The Boy]

Tbh I think they're a bunch of wankers for attacking art.

Hve they actually damaged any though? I thought the majority of stuff they've attacked like Van Gogh's sunflowers were protected by glass, liem the Stonehenge protest it grabs headlines, makes people angry, but ultimately does no damage.

 

[SilentWitness]

Surely blocking trains would be counterproductive, given they're touted as a way to get drivers off the roads? Or at least they would be if they weren't so stupidly expensive.

I'm sure the protestors will get greatly reduced sentences on appeal, given the outcry at the severity.

Tbh I think they're a bunch of wankers for attacking art.

I was thinking more of an avenue of freight rather than commuter but yeah, that's true.

The art/heritage attacks are the things that don't have a link but they do create headlines and don't cause actual damage due to the glass screens and stuff I suppose.

 

[NotThatSoph]

That's who I want deciding the laws I live by, never heard of her, doesn't live here , wasn't elected by me, represents an organization I can't influence or vote out. Comes from a country enriched by selling Oil.

Doesn't pass the Tony Ben test does it?

This is, quite possibly, the dumbest comment I've ever read.

It was an example of yet another person who's job it is to defend human rights being worried about what's happening in the UK. No one has suggested that she should decide the laws in the UK. Are you not capable of understanding basic words? There is no way for you to read my comment and reasonable interpret that I want the director of a Norwegian government agency to decide British laws.

But she agrees with you so feck democracy and the rule of law. right.



NB( might very well). As long as we work on this level of certainty everything will definitely get better.

Once again, this is spectacularly dumb. I'm never surprised to see you defend authoritarianism, but I am surprised to see you struggle so bad with reading. Criticizing the actions of a democratically elected government is not a feck you to democracy or the rule of law. I'm amazed at the fact that I had to write that sentence.

I hope you're pretending and lying for rhetorical effect, in an extremely weird attempt to point score, because holy shit this is bad.

 

[Wilt]

Surely blocking trains would be counterproductive, given they're touted as a way to get drivers off the roads? Or at least they would be if they weren't so stupidly expensive.

I'm sure the protestors will get greatly reduced sentences on appeal, given the outcry at the severity.

Tbh I think they’re a bunch of wankers for attacking art.

This

 

[TheLiverBird]

Yep. There seems to be a strange entitlement from some that they can inflict their views on you. Ignoring that it infringes on their rights.

Protest climate change to the high heavens but do it in a way that doesn't disrupt everyone else.

I do not agree with their methods just like I didn’t agree with XR’s methods

But people saying “there’s other ways of doing things that doesn’t disrupt everyone”

What are they? Please do tell??

Government lobbying? Done
Peaceful protests? Done
Expert Scientific information gathering and mass sharing of it? Done

What happens when all doors are closed? And action is not being taken anywhere near fast enough? Drastic action is often taken like we’ve seen in History gone by for many successful disruptive protesters.

My annoyance with these Just Stop Oil guys and XR guys is they’ve created a divide with their methods, on something so monumentally important.

I don’t have the answers as too how we go about tackling climate change and quickly too, but I know it’s the most serious problem facing life on Earth, yet too many are so blazay about it.

Look at the IPCC report, the science is there.

Almost 300 of the worlds finest scientists in their field put this report together and has been accepted and green lighted by more than 15,000 expert scientists word wide.

 

[11101]

Surely blocking trains would be counterproductive, given they're touted as a way to get drivers off the roads? Or at least they would be if they weren't so stupidly expensive.

I'm sure the protestors will get greatly reduced sentences on appeal, given the outcry at the severity.

Tbh I think they're a bunch of wankers for attacking art.

Outcry? Most people I've seen are glad they've finally got a decent sentence and questioning the integrity of the judge was never going to end well.

A lengthy prison stint isn't going to affect the job prospects of these five but it should make some of their sheep think twice.

 

[Flying high]

Of course it's narcissistic? Do you understand quite how many forms of narcissistic personality disorder there are? Look up Narcissistic Martyr's and tell me that's not what's going on here.

I don't doubt that some of the protestors are doing it for the type of reasons you say. But to paint an entire group that way says more about you. Especially after now having read a few of your posts on the subject.

I've met quite a few hardcore protestors. Your description doesn't fit well at all. Many make big sacrifices not because they think they're 'saving the world', they simply recognise the need to raise awareness on issues that go under reported and are brushed aside by the media.

 

[Solius]

Loved to have seen their faces when those sentences were handed down

Bizarre behaviour. Would that bring you joy? Someone losing 5 years of their life purely for causing a disruption and asking people not to destroy the planet?

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

Bizarre behaviour. Would that bring you joy? Someone losing 5 years of their life purely for causing a disruption and asking people not to destroy the planet?

Yeah, that post reminds me of this sketch, 1min 30 or so in.



Just a weird, fetish for state sanctioned punishment.

 

[Solius]

Yeah, that post reminds me of this sketch, 1min 30 or so in.



Just a weird, fetish for state sanctioned punishment.

It’s just a complete lack of empathy and understanding which is far too common from people online who are just so far removed from whatever they’re commenting on.

 

[Wilt]

Bizarre behaviour. Would that bring you joy? Someone losing 5 years of their life purely for causing a disruption and asking people not to destroy the planet?

They won’t be doing anywhere near the prison time of those sentences, if at all.

They’ve caused misery to thousands of people. Cost the taxpayer £millions. Destroyed irreplaceable art etc etc.

Yes I’d love to have seen the smile wiped of their faces when those sentences were handed down, though Ironically that judge and his extreme sentences has done more to highlight their cause than any of the shite they’ve managed so far.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

It’s just a complete lack of empathy and understanding which is far too common from people online who are just so far removed from whatever they’re commenting on.

It's also a love for the kind of justice you see in Robocop

 

[Solius]

They won’t be doing anywhere near the prison time of those sentences, if at all.

They’ve caused misery to thousands of people. Cost the taxpayer £millions. Destroyed irreplaceable art etc etc.

Yes I’d love to have seen the smile wiped of their faces when those sentences were handed down, though Ironically that judge and his extreme sentences has done more to highlight their cause than any of the shite they’ve managed so far.

You don’t know for sure how long they’ll serve. And even just giving that if there’s no intention of them serving it feels a bit odd.

Climate change will cause way more misery than some people who had their journeys disrupted. There are plenty of people who run companies that pollute our seas with oil, route sewage into our water and more that have completely escaped punishment just because they’re in positions of power. They deserve more jail time than these people.

Also no art was ruined, they’re all covered by protectors (and these specific people didn’t even do that one afaik). The point of protest is to disrupt, and the Tory govt bill on it is grim. They want everyone to neatly stand to one side, be ignored and let people go about their day. It’s the complete opposite of what the point of it is.

I just find it weird to have more sympathy with someone who ended up stuck in traffic for a bit. Compared to people trying to save the planet and risking their futures as a result. People may not agree with their methods but at least they’re trying something and this is a draconian punishment that a certain type of person can just sit at their screen far removed from and laugh at without ever taking a second to think about it any deeper because they’ve been told these people are bad and it serves them right.

 

[TwoSheds]

Grievous bodily harm carries a maximum sentence of 5 years. Same sentence as standing on a motorway seemingly. I don't think people really understand how bonkers these sentences are. The crime is "conspiracy to cause a nuisance" I think - being annoying is as bad as breaking someone's legs. Complete madness.

 

[Jippy]

It's also a love for the kind of justice you see in Robocop

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

I swear it's a fetish for punishment.

 

[NotThatSoph]

A few people here have argued approvingly for long sentences based on total amount of time lost for everyone involved. Specifically, because the protests apparently wasted five years if you add up the time of everyone stuck in queue for a bit, five years is fair.

In Norway you currently see regular protests about VAR. The new thing is to throw tennis balls onto the field. Say that happened at Old Trafford, and we do some rough estimating: average attendance 73-74k, average TV audience around 1.5m, roughly 1.6 million people involved. Say it takes 10 minutes to stop the match, wait for the throwing to be over, clean it up and start over.

That's 30 years in jail for anyone organizing the throwing of some tennis balls. What a system, not super dumb at all.

 

[Bosnian_fan]

I do not agree with your conclusion that people who do not condone these protests don't care about climate change. I care deeply about climate change, I have as much solar as I can afford and have been driving an EV on almost only that (as much as is possible) for 3 years now. I have used extensive amounts of my income in order to reduce the carbon footprint of my living space and I hardly ever go on flights any more because of it.

I just don't see the fecking point in annoying everyone to gain nothing, destroying all good will in the general population while also disabling all societal functions that depend on traffic. What they do does feck all for the climate. It ultimately only shows their disregard for their fellow citizens, every single one of which has the same information available to form an opinion as they do.

Yes, I've read the whole topic and I'd say you are one of the rare exceptions in terms of what you do.

Mind you, I didn't voice any opinion on the protests themselves. I also understand this topic is about the JSO's actions, not so much about their goals, but I find it mind-boggling just how little people care.

It really does come down to the question of how seriously the climate threat change is perceived by individuals. I have a feeling that too many people still believe that climate change will be solved, either by itself, or by human intervention, with our lifestyles not being inconvenienced even in the slightest. This is probably a generalisation, but that is just a vibe that some of these posts give me. For those who believe we will get through this without being inconvenienced whatsoever, JSO's actions are completely unacceptable.

I don't really think JSO is going to be the worst of eco-terrorism though. As situation gets worse, I predict much worse action from different groups around the world.

 

[Wilt]

You don’t know for sure how long they’ll serve. And even just giving that if there’s no intention of them serving it feels a bit odd.

Climate change will cause way more misery than some people who had their journeys disrupted. There are plenty of people who run companies that pollute our seas with oil, route sewage into our water and more that have completely escaped punishment just because they’re in positions of power. They deserve more jail time than these people.

Also no art was ruined, they’re all covered by protectors (and these specific people didn’t even do that one afaik). The point of protest is to disrupt, and the Tory govt bill on it is grim. They want everyone to neatly stand to one side, be ignored and let people go about their day. It’s the complete opposite of what the point of it is.

I just find it weird to have more sympathy with someone who ended up stuck in traffic for a bit. Compared to people trying to save the planet and risking their futures as a result. People may not agree with their methods but at least they’re trying something and this is a draconian punishment that a certain type of person can just sit at their screen far removed from and laugh at without ever taking a second to think about it any deeper because they’ve been told these people are bad and it serves them right.

I’d imagine almost everyone is aware of the seriousness of climate change.

There’s ways and means. There must be better ways of bringing meaningful attention to their cause than what amounts to be being a nuisance. Although those who had lost vital hospital appointments would most likely view it differently.

As previously mentioned, Judge Hehir by handing out those draconian sentences has done more to highlight their cause than any JSO protest.

 

[Samid]

A few people here have argued approvingly for long sentences based on total amount of time lost for everyone involved. Specifically, because the protests apparently wasted five years if you add up the time of everyone stuck in queue for a bit, five years is fair.

In Norway you currently see regular protests about VAR. The new thing is to throw tennis balls onto the field. Say that happened at Old Trafford, and we do some rough estimating: average attendance 73-74k, average TV audience around 1.5m, roughly 1.6 million people involved. Say it takes 10 minutes to stop the match, wait for the throwing to be over, clean it up and start over.

That's 30 years in jail for anyone organizing the throwing of some tennis balls. What a system, not super dumb at all.

To quote you from earlier (but with a slight correction):

This is, quite possibly, the dumbest comment I've ever read.

Imagine actually comparing a 5 minute delay at a football match (where you can just get up from your seat and leave if you're in a hurry) to blocking roads for days and causing immense disruptions so people can't reach work, meetings, appointments, exams etc.

There are millions of organizations around the world working for good causes and positive changes. Majority of those don't get the attention they deserve and find it a struggle to raise funds and awareness. Imagine if only a fraction of those did as this self-righteous sect and started disrupting society just to get their point across. In a civilized world there simply has to be consequences for that kind of behavior whether you like it or not.

This mob needs to stop acting holier than thou and reevaluate their strategy completely. Causing issues for everyday people (who have their own everyday issues to worry about) only alienates them from the message you're trying to convey.

They've got an important message but as it stands no sane person wants to be associated with them because they are full-blown lunatics.

 

[NotThatSoph]

To quote you from earlier (but with a slight correction):


Imagine actually comparing a 5 minute delay at a football match (where you can just get up from your seat and leave if you're in a hurry) to blocking roads for days and causing immense disruptions so people can't reach work, meetings, appointments, exams etc.

How do you think they reached the figure of 51 000 hours wasted, do you think they only counted people in a hurry?

 

[maniak]

Just don’t plan a protest that will obviously cause serious problems, like blocking highways, preventing planes to take off etc, and you’ll be fine.
L

Right, those great and efficient protests that don't bother anyone. Those tend to work pretty well.

 

[maniak]

And I'd say that the people who organise these sorts of protest aren't doing it to "change" anything, they're doing it because they're narcissists who love the attention, they don't actually give a shit about changing people's minds at all, they enjoy causing havoc and there's an element of anarchistic destructiveness and joy about it all. "I don't like society and think it's destroying things so I am going to destroy society before it destroys me (?)" doesn't seem to be to be a particularly productive way to do things. People had their chance to vote for the Green Party not so long ago. They overwhemingly voted for socialists in Labour, who have been very vociferous about their stance on improving the energy situation in Britain. That's going to take time. Running around on the M25 seems to me to be designed to do more of the former, it's not saving the planet, it's shouting "look at me look at me look at me!" and causing disruption. Real change isn't about stamping your feet in a group of adults like an organised temper tantrum.

I think this post just proves my point, you just sound bitter about the whole thing. What you're saying about these people is based on absolutely nothing.

 

[VorZakone]

Right, those great and efficient protests that don't bother anyone. Those tend to work pretty well.

And what is the endgame of this argument? Keep disrupting society?

These people aren't Rosa Parks. I sympathize with the cause but that doesn't mean you should get away with major disruptions.

Ofcourse, the punishment should fit the act and multiple years seems extremely excessive.

 

[maniak]

And what is the endgame of this argument? Keep disrupting society?

These people aren't Rosa Parks. I sympathize with the cause but that doesn't mean you should get away with major disruptions.

Ofcourse, the punishment should fit the act and multiple years seems extremely excessive.

Well, you've just answered yourself. Yes, keep disrupting society and keep getting punished. The point is that 5 years is just dystopian.

 

[Oldyella]

And what is the endgame of this argument? Keep disrupting society?

These people aren't Rosa Parks. I sympathize with the cause but that doesn't mean you should get away with major disruptions.

Ofcourse, the punishment should fit the act and multiple years seems extremely excessive.

I wonder who Rosa Parks was being compared to at the time?

 

[VorZakone]

Well, you've just answered yourself. Yes, keep disrupting society and keep getting punished. The point is that 5 years is just dystopian.

Is there not a cumulative thing here? The more you do it, the higher the punishment eventually gets.

 

[Bosnian_fan]

And what is the endgame of this argument? Keep disrupting society?

These people aren't Rosa Parks. I sympathize with the cause but that doesn't mean you should get away with major disruptions.

Ofcourse, the punishment should fit the act and multiple years seems extremely excessive.

Aren't you aware that global warming dwarfs Rosa Parks, Martin Luther King and pretty much any issue we've ever tackled?

Yes, they are not Rosa Parks, but the issue they are unsuccessfully trying to tackle dwarfs even that of Rosa Parks.

You are either aware of that or not. And if/when you are aware, you should realize that if society in its current ways isn't disrupted, there may not be society at all in few decades.

If we continue business as usual, which all of you seem to propagate, disruptions like these will look ridiculously mild to what awaits us when tens of milions of climate refugees start moving towards Europe in hope of survival. And for that part, I think we already can't do anything and it is bound to happen. Maybe next year, maybe in five, who knows?

So we'd just rather ignore it and pretend that scientific consensus about what is going to happen should somehow not concern us, and that it is more important for the future of the society to get those villains who spilled some corn syrup over Stonehenge behind the bars, so that we are safe.

 

[NotThatSoph]

And what is the endgame of this argument? Keep disrupting society?

These people aren't Rosa Parks. I sympathize with the cause but that doesn't mean you should get away with major disruptions.

Ofcourse, the punishment should fit the act and multiple years seems extremely excessive.

The bus Rosa Parks was on had 36 passenger seats, plus the driver. The bus was pretty full, so let's say 30 people.

For every minute the arrest delayed the bus, therefore Parks wasted 30 minutes of society's time. She should have been sentenced to prison for several hours, but instead she got away with a $14 fine.

 

[maniak]

Is there not a cumulative thing here? The more you do it, the higher the punishment eventually gets.

No idea about how the law works or if these people have been convicted before. Regardless I will always disagree with prison time for organizing a protest. Give them fines, community service, whatever.

 

[VorZakone]

The bus Rosa Parks was on had 36 passenger seats, plus the driver. The bus was pretty full, so let's say 30 people.

For every minute the arrest delayed the bus, therefore Parks wasted 30 minutes of society's time. She should have been sentenced to prison for several hours, but instead she got away with a $14 fine.

I'm not the one who made that "hours delayed" argument.

 

[VorZakone]

No idea about how the law works or if these people have been convicted before. Regardless I will always disagree with prison time for organizing a protest. Give them fines, community service, whatever.

Hold on here, let's not muddy the waters. Do you mean organizing a legal protest or disrupting people's daily life?

 

[maniak]

Hold on here, let's not muddy the waters. Do you mean organizing a legal protest or disrupting people's daily life?

For me an efficient protest disrupts people's lives.

 

[VorZakone]

For me an efficient protest disrupts people's lives.

How has that been working out so far? Has it made people more or less receptive to the arguments made by these climate activists?

 

[NotThatSoph]

I'm not the one who made that "hours delayed" argument.

I know, just took advantage of a possibility to make fun of it.

 

[Frosty]

From a history of the equal suffrage movement:

When the Labour Party was formed in 1900, Emmeline Pankhurst hoped that they would support votes for women on the same terms as men. This was not the same as supporting full adult suffrage. Pankhurst's proposals were defeated at the Labour Party Conference. After this she left the Party and established the Women's Social and Political Union, or WSPU. Pankhurst and her daughters Christabel and Sylvia were leaders of the newly formed group. Unlike the NUWSS's structure they were unelected as leaders.

Pankhurst decided to restrict membership of the WSPU to women (unlike the NUWSS). Pankhurst argued, in a move away from the NUWSS's tactics, that "deeds, not words", were to be the WSPU's motto. Like the NUWSS, the suffragettes used posters, pamphlets, public meetings and marches in their campaign. The WSPU sold 20,000 copies of their newspaper, Votes for Women, each week.

The WSPU adopted militant, direct action tactics which make the actions of Extinction Rebellion and Just Stop Oil seem tame in comparison. The WPSU chained themselves to railings, disrupted public meetings, assault, undertook hunger strikes and caused damage to public property.

In 1913, Emily Davison stepped out in front of the King's horse at the Epsom Derby. Her purpose remains unclear, but she was hit and later died from her injuries.

In the same year, the WPSU burned down the house of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and future Prime Minister, David Lloyd George (who was supportive of women's suffrage).

Suffragettes smashed windows of upscale shops and government offices. They cut telephone lines, spat at police and politicians, cut or burned pro-suffrage slogans into stadium turf, sent letter bombs, destroyed greenhouses at Kew gardens, chained themselves to railings and blew up houses. A doctor was attacked with a rhino whip, and in one case suffragettes rushed the House of Commons. On 18 July 1912 Mary Leigh threw a hatchet at Prime Minister Herbert Asquith.

On 10 March 1914, suffragette Mary Richardson (known as one of the most militant activists, also called "Slasher" Richardson) walked into the National Gallery and attacked Diego Velázquez's painting, Rokeby Venus with a meat cleaver. In 1913 suffragette militancy caused £54,000 worth of damage, £36,000 of which occurred in April alone (over £6m in today’s money).

Suffragettes were arrested and imprisoned but continued their protest in prison by hunger strike. Although initially they were fed by force, in 1913 the Prisoners Temporary Discharge for Ill-Health Act was passed by Parliament. Commonly known as the Cat and Mouse Act, this allowed prison authorities to release hunger-striking women prisoners when they became too weak, and re-arrest them when they had recovered. Emmeline Pankhurst was jailed and released on 11 occasions.

 

[maniak]

How has that been working out so far? Has it made people more or less receptive to the arguments made by these climate activists?

In my experience with young people, it's working. In my mind people who don't like it are people who would never be allies in the first place, so we can't subtract them to the support numbers and they were never there.