Just Stop Oil

Barmy sentence. Arguably any jail time at all is nonsense. Just slap them with a heck of a lot of community service in the sustainability sector or something.
 
Fair enough I think. Don't protest on a fecking motorway. Protest somewhere else. If people don't listen, that's because they're not interested. And that's their right.
 
Camilo said:
Fair enough I think. Don't protest on a fecking motorway. Protest somewhere else. If people don't listen, that's because they're not interested. And that's their right.
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You think 5 years in jail for this is fair?
 
Personally, I think they protest in completely the wrong and often most dangerous ways, they are never going to get the support of people with those tactics. Sure, the "raising awareness" looks like something, but does it ultimately get votes for a party who can change something, or any lasting traction?

But this decision is pure evil. There needs to be sense from all sides here, absolutely no way this should stick.
 
Redlambs said:
Personally, I think they protest in completely the wrong and often most dangerous ways, they are never going to get the support of people with those tactics. Sure, the "raising awareness" looks like something, but does it ultimately get votes for a party who can change something, or any lasting traction?

But this decision is pure evil. There needs to be sense from all sides here, absolutely no way this should stick.
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I think it makes sense though to protest on roads/airports though in regards to what their cause is. What didn't make sense to me was the Stonehenge stunt. Ultimately though, a fundamental reason of protesting is to be disruptive and they're doing that. I just don't think enough people care yet about the environment for them to get the backing of the common person in the same way that other protests have and do.
 
SilentWitness said:
I think it makes sense though to protest on roads/airports though in regards to what their cause is. What didn't make sense to me was the Stonehenge stunt. Ultimately though, a fundamental reason of protesting is to be disruptive and they're doing that. I just don't think enough people care yet about the environment for them to get the backing of the common person in the same way that other protests have and do.
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Protesting on a motorway absolutely doesn't make sense. Nor on top of a train, nor on roads when people are trying to get to work/emergency services need to get through.

Do it at the car factories, block up the roads the MP's live on if you really want to get to them and make a statement that will get more support.

But anyway, it doesn't change the fact this sentence is a disgrace. But rather ironically, it certainly makes a statement that has backing from plenty of people it seems!
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
There's a lot of different stuff you've conflated into a single response. Let me try to parse it.

Firstly, any impact on standard of living driven by renewable energy is very indirect. For the common person it just isn't something that he can attribute to in everyday life. Not like "Oh, I switched to Tesla and I'm having a better life now" or "My home is powered by renewable, so I have better quality of life now". There are various other social, economic & political factors that influence standard of living far far more than renewable energy debate. It would have an impact, but ascertaining exactly how much would be pretty much a intellectual exercise.

Secondly, if you look at raw numbers of energy produced by renewable energy, countries like India, China & USA are already on top of the charts. Ironically these are the same countries who also top the carbon emissions charts. China and India produce far more renewable energy than all European nations. The biggest culprit again, being the US.

Thirdly, the main reason for fossil fuel subsidy is not because they encourage them, but rather the only way to keep them affordable to run the economy. Having grown up in India, we always get a subsidy when oil prices go up, so fuel doesn't become so expensive to crash the economy. It's just a necessity. Both India & China have plans to grow their nuclear energy and move away from fuels and this has been in the works for some time now.
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I think you should visit Nigeria or South Africa and tell them all they need is more oil, gas, coal power or whatever. The grids of many nations are fecked or just don't exist (incidentally this is why Texas suffers from more outages than the rest of the US - they have their own grid that isn't interconnected with the states around them). Renewable solar and battery installations already are the only source of power for many people around the world, and as they keep getting cheaper and more reliable and efficient, it will continue to improve the quality of lives of many more people. The problem in Nigeria is actually security - everybody would want solar panels instead of their diesel gensets if they didn't get nicked off your roof. The idea that it's only indirect benefits derived from renewables is ignorant and only reflects the bias of the author.

Also feck the British justice system. Prisons overflowing and you get 5 fecking years for organising a protest. Absolute scumbag the judge.
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
The Fascist's didn't hit the streets, the Bolshevik's didn't.? They both didn't court state retaliation as justification for calling the govt repressive and use this to court public opinion?

They are agitators, agitating.

You think their cause is justified so you won't admit it. That's all.
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Of course they hit the streets. They just weren't the primary cause of inconvenience of the working man, they were a product of it. Like what are you doing here exactly? Harking back to the halcyon days of hyperinflation and Russian serfdom when the working man was unencumbered by extremist ideology and lived a life of beatific satisfaction?
 
Camilo said:
Fair enough I think. Don't protest on a fecking motorway. Protest somewhere else. If people don't listen, that's because they're not interested. And that's their right.
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Yep. There seems to be a strange entitlement from some that they can inflict their views on you. Ignoring that it infringes on their rights.

Protest climate change to the high heavens but do it in a way that doesn't disrupt everyone else.
 
Sandikan said:
Yep. There seems to be a strange entitlement from some that they can inflict their views on you. Ignoring that it infringes on their rights.

Protest climate change to the high heavens but do it in a way that doesn't disrupt everyone else.
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Nobody is arguing that point. The point is that 5 years is a crazily harsh punishment for disruption.
 
Solius said:
Nobody is arguing that point. The point is that 5 years is a crazily harsh punishment for disruption.
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There was legal precedent set in 2023 with the Dartford protestors around punishment. Unfortunately for this group, the only deterrent that courts will seek is custodial sentencing.
 
People who are ok with this are people who will never go out to the streets to protest anything. They are conformed to the way things are and change is, if we're honest, an inconvenience for them. These protestors are a reminder of how selfish they are, so them being punished gives them a sense of being right about their conformist (lack of) convictions.

Anyone who cares about any issue to the point they would plan to protest should be absolutely terrified by this sentencing.
 
Ekkie Thump said:
Of course they hit the streets. They just weren't the primary cause of inconvenience of the working man, they were a product of it. Like what are you doing here exactly? Harking back to the halcyon days of hyperinflation and Russian serfdom when the working man was unencumbered by extremist ideology and lived a life of beatific satisfaction?
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I'm pretty sure just stop oil was founded in 2022. I am harking back to the halcyon days of 2021 I guess, how untenable of me.
 
Please proceed to the protest zone. In the zone you will be able to protest peacefully and cause no inconvenience to the wider public. Thank you.
 
Passing sentence on each of the defendants at Southwark crown court, the judge Christopher Hehir said: “The offending of all five of you is very serious indeed and lengthy custodial sentences must follow.”

Hehir admitted there was a scientific and social consensus that human-made climate breakdown was happening and action should be taken to avert it. “I acknowledge that at least some of the concerns motivating you are, at least to some extent, shared by many,” he said.

“But the plain fact is that each of you has some time ago crossed the line from concerned campaigner to fanatic. You have appointed yourselves as the sole arbiters of what should be done about climate change, bound neither by the principles of democracy nor the rule of law.

“And your fanaticism makes you entirely heedless of the rights of your fellow citizens. You have taken it upon yourselves to decide that your fellow citizens must suffer disruption and harm, and how much disruption and harm they must suffer, simply so that you may parade your views.”
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...
 
Loved to have seen their faces when those sentences were handed down
 
Sweet Square said:
Please proceed to the protest zone. In the zone you will be able to protest peacefully and cause no inconvenience to the wider public. Thank you.
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It's not an inconvenience on the M25, it's really dangerous.
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
I'm pretty sure just stop oil was founded in 2022. I am harking back to the halcyon days of 2021 I guess, how untenable of me.
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What, when the Bolsheviks and Nazis poured into the streets to disrupt the lives of ordinary people?

For reference:

Don't Kill Bill said:
The Fascists and Communists were the first on the streets to disrupt the lives of ordinary people, to force them into actions most people didn't support. Mob rule and intimidation are the bread and butter of autocratic, anti democratic, populists, autocratic organizations.
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Don't Kill Bill said:
The Fascist's didn't hit the streets, the Bolshevik's didn't.? They both didn't court state retaliation as justification for calling the govt repressive and use this to court public opinion?
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Great to see it has proper consequences to carry out daft protests. Will be interesting to see what happens next, as the punishments are harsher than most would expect
 
maniak said:
People who are ok with this are people who will never go out to the streets to protest anything. They are conformed to the way things are and change is, if we're honest, an inconvenience for them. These protestors are a reminder of how selfish they are, so them being punished gives them a sense of being right about their conformist (lack of) convictions.

Anyone who cares about any issue to the point they would plan to protest should be absolutely terrified by this sentencing.
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Just don’t plan a protest that will obviously cause serious problems, like blocking highways, preventing planes to take off etc, and you’ll be fine.
L
 
maniak said:
People who are ok with this are people who will never go out to the streets to protest anything. They are conformed to the way things are and change is, if we're honest, an inconvenience for them. These protestors are a reminder of how selfish they are, so them being punished gives them a sense of being right about their conformist (lack of) convictions.

Anyone who cares about any issue to the point they would plan to protest should be absolutely terrified by this sentencing.
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And I'd say that the people who organise these sorts of protest aren't doing it to "change" anything, they're doing it because they're narcissists who love the attention, they don't actually give a shit about changing people's minds at all, they enjoy causing havoc and there's an element of anarchistic destructiveness and joy about it all. "I don't like society and think it's destroying things so I am going to destroy society before it destroys me (?)" doesn't seem to be to be a particularly productive way to do things. People had their chance to vote for the Green Party not so long ago. They overwhemingly voted for socialists in Labour, who have been very vociferous about their stance on improving the energy situation in Britain. That's going to take time. Running around on the M25 seems to me to be designed to do more of the former, it's not saving the planet, it's shouting "look at me look at me look at me!" and causing disruption. Real change isn't about stamping your feet in a group of adults like an organised temper tantrum.
 
Adele Matheson Mestad, director of the Norwegian National Human Rights Institution, a government agency, thinks this might very well be a breach of human rights. Amnesty has already said the same, of course, as well as representatives from the UN.

It would be interesting to see it tested, and as a bonus we'd get a bunch of Cafites on team Braverman & Farage.
 
GazTheLegend said:
And I'd say that the people who organise these sorts of protest aren't doing it to "change" anything, they're doing it because they're narcissists who love the attention, they don't actually give a shit about changing people's minds at all, they enjoy causing havoc and there's an element of anarchistic destructiveness and joy about it all. "I don't like society and think it's destroying things so I am going to destroy society before it destroys me (?)" doesn't seem to be to be a particularly productive way to do things. People had their chance to vote for the Green Party not so long ago. They overwhemingly voted for socialists in Labour, who have been very vociferous about their stance on improving the energy situation in Britain. That's going to take time. Running around on the M25 seems to me to be designed to do more of the former, it's not saving the planet, it's shouting "look at me look at me look at me!" and causing disruption. Real change isn't about stamping your feet in a group of adults like an organised temper tantrum.
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I honestly can't tell if this is parody.

I hope it is. Because risking falling foul of the ridiculous anti protest laws of the tories seems anything but narcisistic to me.
 
NotThatSoph said:
Adele Matheson Mestad, director of the Norwegian National Human Rights Institution, a government agency, thinks this might very well be a breach of human rights. Amnesty has already said the same, of course, as well as representatives from the UN.
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It's almost like history repeating itself, with the same lines coming out in Dartford Crossing case. It didn't go that far last time, so it'll be interesting to see how far this appeal gets.

That said, Hallam is now getting what he's been asking for back in his Extinction Rebellion days “letters, emailing, marches don’t work. You need about 400 people to go to prison. About two to three thousand people to be arrested.” https://www.theguardian.com/world/v...enough-life-inside-extinction-rebellion-video
 
F-Red said:
It's almost like history repeating itself, with the same lines coming out in Dartford Crossing case. It didn't go that far last time, so it'll be interesting to see how far this appeal gets.

That said, Hallam is now getting what he's been asking for back in his Extinction Rebellion days “letters, emailing, marches don’t work. You need about 400 people to go to prison. About two to three thousand people to be arrested.” https://www.theguardian.com/world/v...enough-life-inside-extinction-rebellion-video
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Yes, when an authoritarian state repeatedly does authoritarian things, the same kind of things tend to be brought up.

Getting arrested can be powerful for protesters, it has always been that way. Many of the most iconic moments from things like the Civil Rights Era are people dragged away by law enforcement. Always fun when people use that to defend draconian measures.

Bernie Sanders famously got arrested when protesting in the 60s. He very likely knew what he was getting himself into. Maybe it was strategy, even! I can just see people arguing he should be thrown away for years, instead of paying a fine. He wanted to get arrested, after all! Very useful.
 
NotThatSoph said:
Yes, when an authoritarian state repeatedly does authoritarian things, the same kind of things tend to be brought up.

Getting arrested can be powerful for protesters, it has always been that way. Many of the most iconic moments from things like the Civil Rights Era are people dragged away by law enforcement. Always fun when people use that to defend draconian measures.

Bernie Sanders famously got arrested when protesting in the 60s. He very likely knew what he was getting himself into. Maybe it was strategy, even! I can just see people arguing he should be thrown away for years, instead of paying a fine. He wanted to get arrested, after all! Very useful.
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What would you suggest that an appropriate deterrent be then in this specific case?
 
Bonkers that they got 4 to 5 years in prison for a measly protest. You might as well end democracy and free press while you're at it.
 
F-Red said:
What would you suggest that an appropriate deterrent be then in this specific case?
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To deter people from being authoritarian monsters? I don't know, we could try it your way and jail you for five years, maybe you're right and it would change your ways.
 
I'd generally say this topic shows, especially with latest news of these prison sentences, where each of us stands in terms of climate change perception.

People treating protests and protesters with contempt and welcoming the news of extreme prison terms for them actually don't believe climate change. Or at the very least, they believe the effects will either be felt so far in the future, or will be so easy to mitigate (temperatures a little higher than usual, no big deal right?) that the slight disturbance in BAU lifestyle is bigger deal than the climate change itself.

And mind you, this is extremely liberal and left leaning forum, although at certain times recently I have wondered if that is truly the case. However, looking at other places, yes, this is still as left as you can go.

Bad news for all of us, even the oldest ones here, is that we will all feel the effects of climate change quite soon. And it is absolutely going to turn into most important question of our lives. There is not a single issue we are dealing with currently, that climate change will not affect for much worse. And seeing what the consensus seems to be, we are in for a hellish ride.

We've just had one of the historical heatwaves in Balkans, and we are most likely going to have a few more by the end of august. I am a relatively young guy, 33, and I've always loved summer. It is fine on day one of heatwave, but on day 10, when night brings no respite and you have actual trouble sleeping in these tropical nights due to heat and humidity, you begin to wonder what a future brings. Because it will only get far more unpleasant than this.
 
Bosnian_fan said:
I'd generally say this topic shows, especially with latest news of these prison sentences, where each of us stands in terms of climate change perception.

People treating protests and protesters with contempt and welcoming the news of extreme prison terms for them actually don't believe climate change. Or at the very least, they believe the effects will either be felt so far in the future, or will be so easy to mitigate (temperatures a little higher than usual, no big deal right?) that the slight disturbance in BAU lifestyle is bigger deal than the climate change itself.

And mind you, this is extremely liberal and left leaning forum, although at certain times recently I have wondered if that is truly the case. However, looking at other places, yes, this is still as left as you can go.

Bad news for all of us, even the oldest ones here, is that we will all feel the effects of climate change quite soon. And it is absolutely going to turn into most important question of our lives. There is not a single issue we are dealing with currently, that climate change will not affect for much worse. And seeing what the consensus seems to be, we are in for a hellish ride.

We've just had one of the historical heatwaves in Balkans, and we are most likely going to have a few more by the end of august. I am a relatively young guy, 33, and I've always loved summer. It is fine on day one of heatwave, but on day 10, when night brings no respite and you have actual trouble sleeping in these tropical nights due to heat and humidity, you begin to wonder what a future brings. Because it will only get far more unpleasant than this.
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I do not agree with your conclusion that people who do not condone these protests don't care about climate change. I care deeply about climate change, I have as much solar as I can afford and have been driving an EV on almost only that (as much as is possible) for 3 years now. I have used extensive amounts of my income in order to reduce the carbon footprint of my living space and I hardly ever go on flights any more because of it.

I just don't see the fecking point in annoying everyone to gain nothing, destroying all good will in the general population while also disabling all societal functions that depend on traffic. What they do does feck all for the climate. It ultimately only shows their disregard for their fellow citizens, every single one of which has the same information available to form an opinion as they do.
 
NotThatSoph said:
Adele Matheson Mestad, director of the Norwegian National Human Rights Institution, a government agency, thinks this might very well be a breach of human rights. Amnesty has already said the same, of course, as well as representatives from the UN.

It would be interesting to see it tested, and as a bonus we'd get a bunch of Cafites on team Braverman & Farage.
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That's who I want deciding the laws I live by, never heard of her, doesn't live here , wasn't elected by me, represents an organization I can't influence or vote out. Comes from a country enriched by selling Oil.

Doesn't pass the Tony Ben test does it?

But she agrees with you so feck democracy and the rule of law. right.

NB( might very well). As long as we work on this level of certainty everything will definitely get better.




​

 
F-Red said:
It's almost like history repeating itself, with the same lines coming out in Dartford Crossing case. It didn't go that far last time, so it'll be interesting to see how far this appeal gets.

That said, Hallam is now getting what he's been asking for back in his Extinction Rebellion days “letters, emailing, marches don’t work. You need about 400 people to go to prison. About two to three thousand people to be arrested.” https://www.theguardian.com/world/v...enough-life-inside-extinction-rebellion-video
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It's which bit of history that I'm concerned about..

Hitler went to jail, so did his followers. That turned out well when he got into power didn't it.

Being prepared to go to jail doesn't make you Mandela.


The arrogance here is believing that there aren't twice as many people on the other side of the argument who are prepared to do twice as much damage once we decide it doesn't matter if you break the law and legitimize mob rule.
 
Flying high said:
I honestly can't tell if this is parody.

I hope it is. Because risking falling foul of the ridiculous anti protest laws of the tories seems anything but narcisistic to me.
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Of course it's narcissistic? Do you understand quite how many forms of narcissistic personality disorder there are? Look up Narcissistic Martyr's and tell me that's not what's going on here.
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
It's which bit of history that I'm concerned about..

Hitler went to jail, so did his followers. That turned out well when he got into power didn't it.

Being prepared to go to jail doesn't make you Mandela.


The arrogance here is believing that there aren't twice as many people on the other side of the argument who are prepared to do twice as much damage once we decide it doesn't matter if you break the law and legitimize mob rule.
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Putting myself in their shoes psychologically, I think it's something along the lines of if you have the sort of ego where you can convince yourself that you are "saving the planet" then you're going to mentally consider yourself the highest person in your own moral hierarchy. So they're going to do these things (block trains, cars etc) because all these other people are just lessers to them - they're not 'saving the planet'. Plus it justifies pretty much anything you do from them on, right? Who cares about you destroying buildings and paintings, or blocking roads - everything you do is for the most noble of reasons! And how can anyone dare argue with someone so incredibly virtuous that they are saving the planet on their own time.

...But really it's all about power - just the moral kind. Why put the work in to lobby government, convince the public, or push the alternative/ cleaner technologies when it's way easier to just hold up a placard and show everyone how moral you are.
 
Andersonson said:
4 and 5 years is too heavy. A full year would do.
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They'll be out within a year anyway.

All it would've taken was one panicked driver to cause a whole lot of death on a road like the M25. Just don't do it. Go protest somewhere else.
 
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