Our win came courtesy of an inspired display from our captain. A bit like Keane's contribution in the 99 semi-final against Juventus. Don't recall too many people saying United were lucky that night. But it's Liverpool I suppose. We've been lucky everytime we win........On here anyway.
Jurgen Klopp Sack Watch
- Thread starter Samid
- Start date
Our win came courtesy of an inspired display from our captain. A bit like Keane's contribution in the 99 semi-final against Juventus. Don't recall too many people saying United were lucky that night. But it's Liverpool I suppose. We've been lucky everytime we win........On here anyway.
Semi-finals though, & against Liverpool...............
Last semi final he faced against Liverpool Jose knocked you out and went on to win the trophy.
Fahcts
Finals are tough. Just ask your saviour Herr Klopp.
I remember Alaves and their team including a part time baker taking you to the wire. Jordi Cryuff running the show.
You mean his inspired dive for the penalty?
Correct.
I'd disagree with that. For one, our style of play during the successful years was one that was conducive to combating the technical gifted European sides. We basically developed to the point where we beat them at their own game. There's still this ignorant misconception that teams that are crap in today's game were crap back then. I don't think Ferguson ever truly mastered that side of things. But as someone has already said, Jose will probably perform better on the European stage for United. Might not be quite in keeping with United's footballing traditions, but it'll get you in the hunt for adding more CL's to the cabinet.
I don't disagree that Liverpool were one of the best sides in Europe during that time. I also don't really disagree that United could probably have picked up one or two more titles over their history.
However, the Champions League is harder to win than the European Cup was. The European Cup was harder to qualify for than the Champions League is. These aren't debatable. I'd also agree that the UEFA Cup was a harder competition to win before the Champions League allowed non-champions to compete in it.
You've made a point about the format that I don't think you've fully considered there either. The format change and the decision to allow non-champions in the primary competition changed a few things.
Firstly, the decision to allow non-champions in the Champions League devalued the UEFA Cup/Europa League. This has changed recently with the winners of the Europa League gaining entry into the following season's Champions League.
Secondly, allowing non-champions into the Champions League has led to two to four teams from one nation reaching the knockout rounds, and thus missing out on the opportunity to win the UC/EL should they get eliminated then.
I don't think it's the format that makes it more difficult to win, I believe it's more down to the fact that there's more of a balance in quality now between the top sides. Barca won 3 CL's in 6 years because they were head & shoulders above the rest of the best. We won 4 EC's in 8 years because we were the best around at that time. Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern, etc were still top clubs back then, it's just that we were better. Winning those 2 UEFA Cups back when it was a tough competition to win shows how we progressed from a very good team to a great one. So let me put it this way. Do you believe that if we'd have had the CL format back in our day, it would have made any difference to how many European trophies we'd have won ?
No, I rather United to aspire to be United. Anyway it was a Moyes WUM.
Yes.
Liverpool fans should look at their wages instead of just focusing on net spend
We'd be first in the table if all our shots went in the back of the net
Phil Neal said Liverpool players used to treat European aways as a bit of a piss up. A nice holiday away from the rough and tumble of the brutal English First Division. He hardly paints it as the most taxing of achievements. Relatively few games and often against barely competent opponents. What's not to love for players looking for an easy ride.
Don't forget the 70s and 80s were basically football's dark days. Crowd trouble and hooliganism were more front and centre than the football itself. The sport had a huge image problem and had become marginalised. The extreme negative tactics of the era led to the authorities actually changing the rules to make teams play more expansively.
Can't we just forget it ever happened and focus on the glory days of the sport before and after those decades?
Don't forget the 70s and 80s were basically football's dark days. Crowd trouble and hooliganism were more front and centre than the football itself. The sport had a huge image problem and had become marginalised. The extreme negative tactics of the era led to the authorities actually changing the rules to make teams play more expansively.
Can't we just forget it ever happened and focus on the glory days of the sport before and after those decades?
That's hilarious if those stats are actually true. Who on earth are they paying so much money to? Barely any of their players have any sort of marketability...
Jesus. That is one badly run club!
No wonder Brick Top bounce around like a maniac on the sidelines with the money he pulls in.
Which is why FSG are trying to bring some normalcy to proceedings, i.e. a couple of quieter windows and more scrutiny on wage increase requests (Can).
Over the last five years we've offered ridiculous salaries to the likes of Balotelli, Gerrard, Suarez, Studge and maybe even Benteke. With Studge likely to leave that's the last of our big wages, at least until new big players want to come.
It's amazing what we end up paying to average players.
Why? We were the apparent masters of the back pass and had an unfair advantage every time we played.
You got knocked out by some real shite, and generally played a load of shite. That wouldn't have happened with a different format.
What you talking about la, Hendo is the face of FIFA 16!
During our golden years in Europe Manchester United were knocked out in the 2nd round of the Cup Winners Cup in 1977. Knocked out of the UEFA Cup in the 1st round in 1980. Same again in 1982 knocked out in the 1st round of the UEFA Cup. Got to semi-finals of the 1984 Cup Winners Cup. & reached the quarter finals of the UEFA in 1985. You had quite a few good players too during that period. Maybe if the format had been different back you'd have had a few more European trophies to brag about, especially with all those shite teams about.
Genuine question, what does FSG stand for? Fat Spanish Garçon?
During your golden years you also got knocked out of the 1st round of the European Cup, the 2nd round of the European cup twice, the quarter finals/3rd round of the European CUp, and the 2nd round of the Cup Winners Cup. Only one of those was to the eventual winners, and that was your first round exit to Forest. The others all got knocked out in the next round, and included Red Star Belgrade of Yugoslavia, Dinamo Tbilisi from the Soviet Union, Ferencvaros from Hungary, and CSKA Sofia from Bulgaria.
This also isn't about United's European pedigree at that time, it's about Liverpool's and the standard of competition. United weren't even in the first division during part of your 'golden years' ffs.
This is derailing the thread, so I'm currently doing a bit of research and writing an OP if you want to continue the discussion.
One thing I will say about FSG is they have been good on the capital side of spending. They building a new stand costing around £100mil and are building a new training complex worth £50mil.
Something pool fans should consider when they look at transfer spending.
Something pool fans should consider when they look at transfer spending.
So you're going to try & google us out of our great European achievements then ?
Good luck with that.
No, just highlight the differences in the competitions, namely the difficulty in competing in them. The Champions League is a more difficult competition than the European Cup. The European Cup was harder to qualify for than the Champions League.
At the end of the day, you can only beat what's in front of you, and Liverpool's record in Europe and domestically was undoubtedly amongst the best in the continent during that time. However, it's ridiculous to suggest that you'd have been picking up back to back titles with the ease that you did, winning 4 European Cups in 7 seasons, had the format been as it is now, and has been since the late 90s.
Simply put, there is a reason no team in 25 tournaments has won back to back Champions Leagues, whereas in the European Cup format, Real Madrid won 5 in a row, Ajax and Bayern Munich 3 in a row, and Benfica, Inter, Liverpool, Forest and AC Milan 2 in a row.
AC Milan reached the first three CL finals, and won just one, Juventus then reached the next three, and again, won just one. After those first 6 seasons, no team reached back to back finals until United a decade later in 2008 and 2009.
Liverpool getting as far as the quarter or semi-finals of the European Cup by beating teams that now wouldn't even get close to the group stages just doesn't compare to the path you have to take to the final now. Likewise, United facing a team from Malta and a team from Poland on their way to the semi-finals in 67/68 isn't comparable either.
I don't necessarily disagree that United could, and probably should have won one or two more in their history. Personally, 01/02, 03/04, 06/07 and 10/11 have all felt like missed opportunities, and it's hard not to feel like we should have been lifting the trophy in at least one of those seasons.
Didn't united get to a final without winning a game in the group stages? In the old EC every game was do or die. It evens out IMO about which one is harder to win.
Is there a greater yawn-fest than the anti-historiography that takes place to undermine Liverpool's past?
Yes, scousers continously harping on about the past when you used to be great.
No, because teams with 6 points rarely, if ever, get through the group stages.
In 98/99 they won two and drew four, in a group containing both Bayern Munich and Barcelona, and finished second by a point, going through to the knockouts as one of the best placed runners up.
In 07/08 they won five and drew one, topping the group.
In 08/09 they won two and drew four, topping the group.
In 10/11 they won four and drew two.
The lowest points total a team has progressed through a group stage with since they adopted 3 points for a win in 1995/96 was 6. The first time it happened was in 2013/14 when Zenit finished 2nd with 6 points, and the teams in 3rd and 4th both had 5 points, the second in 2015/16 when Roma finished 2nd with 6 points, the team in 3rd also had 6, and the team in 4th 5 points. Both teams won 1 and drew 3, and neither progressed to the final. Never has a team progressed through a group stage without winning a game.
In fact, it'd be far easier to reach the final of a two-legged knockout competition without winning a game. You could go through on away goals every round, or on penalties if you limit it to normal time/extra-time. Seems even more likely to happen when you're only playing 3 rounds before the final.
As I see it, your win in 05 was a better achievement than any of your others precisely because you played more games, and against better opposition. By the same token, both 99 and 08 were more impressive for United than 68.
I really don't see what's so controversial about saying that the Champions League is a harder competition to win than the European Cup was, yet the European Cup was a harder competition to qualify for than the Champions League is.
It's not undermining your past. You dominated domestically and did very well in the European competitions you were in through the 70s and early 80s. You were one of Europe's best teams during that period, particularly from around 75 to 85, just like United were one of Europe's best from about 06 to 11.
I find it incredibly odd that Liverpool fans simply can't accept that playing just three or four rounds to reach a final, one or two of which would be against literal minnows, is easier than playing a dozen or more games against Europe's top sides.
This discussion began because it was claimed that a) the European Cup was at least as difficult to win as the Champions League, and b) Liverpool's European haul would not have changed had the Champions League format been in place during your heyday.
Just so it's clear, Liverpool winning 4 European Cups when they did remains very impressive. Liverpool, or any team for that matter, winning 4 Champions Leagues, including back to back titles, in the same time period now, would be more impressive.
No one creams themselves over Real Madrid winning the first five other than Real Madrid fans. This isn't really any different.
Last time we played Southampton in Dec we had a full strength team for St Mary's (except Lallana) and drew 0-0. Here are the key events of that game according to the Mirror:
Back to playing every 7 days, hopefully Coutinho and Lallana will play and Sturridge to be available at some point. Really hoping the Southie players are thinking of the beach.
- Chances! Can fires wide! Firmino misses the target!16:27
- Chance! Fonte with brilliant block on Coutinho!16:10
- Half-time: Southampton 0-0 Liverpool15:48
- Chance! Forster denies Mane with magnificent save!15:33
- Kick-off: Southampton v Liverpool15:02
Back to playing every 7 days, hopefully Coutinho and Lallana will play and Sturridge to be available at some point. Really hoping the Southie players are thinking of the beach.
I reckon you'll beat them.
Every time United have had the chance to catch you we've cocked it up, and I think you've got enough about you to see yourselves over the line now.
Constantly in the fourth official's face. The refs have admitted they love his passion so no surprise he never faces any consequences.
'We dropped points because the ref didn't give corner'
Sunny day so he can't blame the wind...
He moaned and was in the 4th officials face for the full 90mins there.
Has the myth that Klopp plays really attractive football died yet?
Really, really hope we get an off-side goal today for the Klopp quotes.
He really makes me crack up.
He really makes me crack up.