Haha Kraftwerker's arsenic-laced bias/hate doesn't show through .... at all.
Jurgen Klopp Sack Watch
- Thread starter Samid
- Start date
Agreed. Though there are a few other recent seasons where we've performed well. Those seasons could maybe seen to be increasing in frequency after a long period of total mismanagement as far as the ownership is concerned.
What do you disagree with there? What's biased or hate-filled there?
Can you make any post on here these days without some lame attack on the poster?
The truth laid bare hurts I guess. But I don't think you like to deal in reality.
Liverpool fans shouldn't be bragging about anything right now yet instead they act like sneaky children popping on the Caf trying to get one over on the resident United fans.
I wouldn't mind if they actually had achieved something to boast about but I guess that sums them up doesn't it?
Oh they can wrap their heads around it, they simply choose not to. Net spend has been a stick they've used to beat us with on many occasions over the years. Suddenly, it's not relative, & it's not important, because United are finding that buying players, no matter how much they cost, isn't quite the short-cut to winning titles again they thought it was.
Net spend trophy la, finish above united trophy la. They're top of Lawrensons league table too, they're proud of that.
Who's bragging pal ? You & a few others have become touchy, hormonal, & defensive over a debate relating to net-spending. You have spent a shit-load of money in comparison to us. We spent a shit-load of money over the years in trying to get ourselves back on our perch again. I can accept that. I can accept that we should have done much better than a couple of title challenges in 25 plus years. If you disagree with what I say, fine, lets hear you your opinions. If you don't like what I say, then put me on ignore. But don't try twist things around by claiming we're bragging about something as trivial as spending money. Or not spending money in our case.
It's ironic that you think you're out performing United and actually says more about where your club is than ours.
How you have fallen
The net spend argument is actually widely mocked amongst Liverpool fans and it is also quite evident to anyone with half a brain that the reason it's constantly recycled by local media and major fan sites is because FSG wants it to be talked about as some sort of an impressive feat.
And that's also how they present it, like not spending money is impressive.
In reality a lot of fans (myself included) lost faith in FSG's financial attitude towards the club when they promoted the frauds manifesto also known as "Financial Fair Play", and most others gave up hope after they left Rodgers out to dry in winter transfer windows. I don't buy Klopp's "I've decided against buying more players" argument for a second, he's saying what he's paid to say, and FSG's excuses are always plenty, a major one was Anfield redevelopment, which promised all stands be renovated except for the Kop, turns out only Main Stand was worth the investment for them, now in order to throw more sand in people's eyes they're renaming Centenary after Kenny.
It's just another distraction really, the net spend argument is an eternal PR move by FSG and I'm fairly certain people talking about it are only doing it because it works against clubs that spend tons and fail, their fans get mad when it's used, while in itself the argument is invalid and foolish to make.
I don't think Rodgers was a fraud. I think he was let down massively by the club in all transfer windows, and forced to sign players he didn't want to sign, including Aspas and Luis Alberto (signed because someone at the club knew their agent) and Balotelli (last-minute transfer committee signing). Suarez left because he had better options, not to mention the treatment he got from the media which made him a persona non grata in whole of England, simply because he was a "diving foreigner" (as opposed to the long list of diving England's bravest mate three lions mate). In reality the only thing Rodgers did wrong was his attitude towards CL, and that attitude most likely stemmed from the fact the club let him down when it comes to players, making his squad paper-thin when two or three people got injured.
And of course the club's been mismanaged, that was the whole point of revolt against the previous owners, and the key narrative around FSG's purchase, the club was completely out of it, stuck in time and had to be put back on track, which admittedly is something FSG worked hard at and most likely still are on a commercial level. Even though Anfield redevelopment will turn out to be just another false alarm, rebuilding the Main Stand was a valuable investment and a good step towards club's future existence in modern football.
The club failed to adapt to modern football, as previously said. If nothing else, the achievements we've had (as opposed to getting relegated like every other club that failed to survive in modern PL era) should be applauded, since we were in no way near United's level of business and footballing brilliance alike. Based on how well United was run, it's weird Ferguson only achieved so many PL medals, when he could've had one each season, meanwhile Gerard and Rafa were working miracles with a club filled with yuppie frauds at the highest level and footballing frauds at the lowest level, yet still managed to win trophies. While Ferguson was driving a Porsche to the finish line, they were working with an old Reliant Robin and still managed to achieve so much silverware it is honestly amazing.
In all honesty, what United achieved in the last two decades or so, was completely expected given the club's status, meanwhile what we've achieved while being ran by incompetent fools and utter morons, is incredible.
Or perhaps because nobody outside England rates them? Ever thought of that? In any case, that doesn't matter, given the shit we had to deal with in the past, we're doing incredibly well, in fact if one looks at United's amazing success, amazing football and amazing amounts of money and compares them to the recent performance on the pitch (last three or four seasons), then looks at our horrible lack of success, our lack of signature footballing strategy and our poor financial state, then sees our recent performance, one, if honest, would more likely applaud us with vigor, and boo you with passion, to be quite honest.
It's because he was a racist piece of shit, but considering the support your club gave him over that it's no surprise you're omitting that.
Well what point are you trying to make?
You're not back on your perch nor are you anywhere near being so.
I think that's the issue here. It's like one complete loser trying to persuade someone else they are worse off than them as it makes them feel warm and fuzzy inside.
The reality is you're not.
I'm now appalled with how dreadful Utd have been since 1990. A poor result tonight could be the end for me.
Great posting, mind. Absolute joy to read & containing some excellent points too,
.Oh the irony.
Keep em coming.
You're obsessed with talking about how United have fallen but neglect the fact you've fallen apart again and are no nearer to getting back on your perch as you put it than United.
We might actually listen if you had any credibility. You don't.
Was going to post the same thing - cannot believe some people still see Suarez as the victim!!
There have been many "diving foreigners" over the years, but only one added racial abuse and biting to their repertoire. Any treatment he received was both of his own making and deserved.
Sums up the shite you talk.
Ye didn't do much to deserve anything from the Palace game recently. Leicester, Hull, Swansea and Bournmouth deserved their wins. Add that to the draws that seemed quite even. Compare that to United. We should have destroyed Swansea, West Brom, Bournemouth, Hull, Stoke, West Ham and Arsenal. Now I know a lot will reply with 'should have, would have, could have' etc which is why I have no complaints about where we are in the table with those results. However, my point is that we easily could have been a lot closer to the top of the table, don't think the same can be said for Liverpool.
We look a lot better this season under Mourinho than we did at any time under Moyes or LVG and add the fact that we have some quality young players at the club, a massive transfer kitty and one of the worlds best managers having a year of building under his belt, I don't think we need to see how things work out.
Ye will need a lot more than players of Matip's level to challenge in the coming years. You're entitled to your opinion but I admit that we seem to differ on a lot here. Typical United - Liverpool rivalry eh?
We look a lot better this season under Mourinho than we did at any time under Moyes or LVG and add the fact that we have some quality young players at the club, a massive transfer kitty and one of the worlds best managers having a year of building under his belt, I don't think we need to see how things work out.
Ye will need a lot more than players of Matip's level to challenge in the coming years. You're entitled to your opinion but I admit that we seem to differ on a lot here. Typical United - Liverpool rivalry eh?
We looked a lot better under Evans than we did under Souness. We had 3 excellent young lads in the set-up with Fowler, McManaman, & Redknapp. & we had a very rich owner who wasn't shy in putting his hand in his pocket when it came to buying players. Despite these advantages we never even got a sniff of winning the league. Now obviously Mourinho is vastly superior to Roy Evans in every sense. But that positive is negated by the fact that your man is in competition with quite a few other good managers, who also have a successful record, now plying their trade in the PL. The future isn't set in stone for any of us. & once you start saying 'next year will be our year', you'll officially become LFC
And no other club but Liverpool would have worn t-shirts in support of scum like him.
Irony is lost on you men.
Ya can't quote me on anythingWe looked a lot better under Evans than we did under Souness. We had 3 excellent young lads in the set-up with Fowler, McManaman, & Redknapp. & we had a very rich owner who wasn't shy in putting his hand in his pocket when it came to buying players. Despite these advantages we never even got a sniff of winning the league. Now obviously Mourinho is vastly superior to Roy Evans in every sense. But that positive is negated by the fact that your man is in competition with quite a few other good managers, who also have a successful record, now plying their trade in the PL. The future isn't set in stone for any of us. & once you start saying 'next year will be our year', you'll officially become LFC
Of course, net spend has some meaning. In the long run teams that spend more money (wages + fees) should do better. Yet almost none of our fans have any delusions about our current situation. The caf is almost in perma meltdown at the moment.
At the same time that doesn’t mean that Liverpool is doing a good job either. Most of the (European) teams, that are able to climb the ladder and improve, do so by trusting highly talented youngsters. What’s striking is that Liverpool has zero players from their own youth team, that play a prominent role. The resident scousers frequently hype some random guy, but they never turn out well. What happened to Ibe, Flanagan or Rossiter? Yet when they try to buy talents from abroad, they have an atrocious record. The likes of Markovic, Origi, Grujic are all not living up to what they promised.
When your squad is not full of top-stars, you can give those players a realistic prospect and opportunity to step up. Tottenham is doing that at the moment. So are Dortmund, Monaco, Sevilla and other European teams.
Yet whats also notable is, that Liverpool is not even targeting top talents, but the transfer strategy looks primarily at players, that are already fairly well established (+ random puns). Sure, you can’t buy only kids, but if you only buy Lallanas (Wijnaldum, Benteke, Milner, Firmino, Allen Clyne, Lovren, Moreno, Can) you end up with a squad full of them. They are useful, but they are not the players that allow you to compete for the league title.
Overall Klopp is doing a good job with the squad he has. Finishing top4 would be a success. If you want more, your transfer strategy has to change and you have to start developing your own youth players.
At the same time that doesn’t mean that Liverpool is doing a good job either. Most of the (European) teams, that are able to climb the ladder and improve, do so by trusting highly talented youngsters. What’s striking is that Liverpool has zero players from their own youth team, that play a prominent role. The resident scousers frequently hype some random guy, but they never turn out well. What happened to Ibe, Flanagan or Rossiter? Yet when they try to buy talents from abroad, they have an atrocious record. The likes of Markovic, Origi, Grujic are all not living up to what they promised.
When your squad is not full of top-stars, you can give those players a realistic prospect and opportunity to step up. Tottenham is doing that at the moment. So are Dortmund, Monaco, Sevilla and other European teams.
Yet whats also notable is, that Liverpool is not even targeting top talents, but the transfer strategy looks primarily at players, that are already fairly well established (+ random puns). Sure, you can’t buy only kids, but if you only buy Lallanas (Wijnaldum, Benteke, Milner, Firmino, Allen Clyne, Lovren, Moreno, Can) you end up with a squad full of them. They are useful, but they are not the players that allow you to compete for the league title.
Overall Klopp is doing a good job with the squad he has. Finishing top4 would be a success. If you want more, your transfer strategy has to change and you have to start developing your own youth players.
Actually the net spend argument was probably first brought into football parlance by Benitez, trying to justify why he was having increasingly poor seasons despite the fact he was heavily outspending Ferguson in gross terms. He was aided and abetted by spoofers like Paul Tomkins who used the narrative as a vehicle to sell books to Liverpool fans desperate to validate the failure of the club. People like redman and other down-and-outs then read these books and regurgitate the myths on United forums as a way of making themselves feel better about Liverpool's failure.
As Liverpool spent more money the argument started to become untenable. It died a death for a bit. Plus United weren't winning trophies or looking like a particularly threatening team in the seasons post Ferguson. Now United are once again winning trophies (albeit with bigger prizes to go after), and are spending ambitiously to build on this, with a top level manager in place. So the same tired arguments start to raise their head.
Rodgers was a joke. Even his staunchest defenders on here have long since thrown him under the bus and held him up as the reason for Klopp's failure to win anything. To say his only failing was the CL is incredible. He had one season worth talking about and that was entirely down to Suarez, who he didn't sign.
Incidentally, your comments on why Suarez was disliked are delusional in the extreme. He was found guilty of racially abusing a fellow professional. He deserved every bit of flak that came his way and then some.
So let me get this straight. Man United, who in the late 80s hadn't won the league for 26 years, should have been 'expected' to just start cleaning up major trophies every season for the following 2 decades?
Meanwhile Liverpool, who won everything in sight in the 70s and 80s, have done an 'incredible job' by completely failing to replicate this over the following 2 decades.
I can't even... I just can't respond to that level of stupidity.
Bonus for points for saying Houllier and Rafa were working miracles.
I don't think anyone is going to 'applaud with vigour' the 4th richest team in England finishing... 4th and winning no trophies. Perhaps if they're as easily impressed as someone like you, who rates Rodgers, Rafa and Houllier as 'incredible', then they might think Liverpool's non-achievement is worthy of praise.
I wouldn't expect anyone to applaud us either. But ultimately we just need to keep winning trophies to maintain relevance and breed a winning mentality in a young and developing team. If we manage to further add to what we've won in the last 12 months and people don't want to applaud, won't bother me. I'd much rather have them seething with rage and consulting net spend figures to look for a way to diminish it.
I don't think fans should care about net spend unless it impacts ticket prices. Is there ticket price inflation at Anfield or Old Trafford? If so , are the rates comparable? If not, who cares?
If a club is willing to spend money to bring some of the world's best talent, that should be applauded. I know which camp I'd rather be in.
If a club is willing to spend money to bring some of the world's best talent, that should be applauded. I know which camp I'd rather be in.
I agree with this. I also think if you look at what the clubs bring in and spend pound for pound so to speak we probably spend less than any other top club. TV deal in England is more than fair too (compared to what the rest of Spain has to deal with). People hate that United spend their own money but turn a blind eye when others do so.
In general opinions are like assholes everyone has one and they stink. A lot of Liverpool fans bang on about "money doesn't buy you titles and we will win the league" and then quickly change to "we are poor we never spend money you spend billions". Yet they don't give Everton credit in the net spend league.
Klopp has had two seasons and he's not really performing poorly, but he certainly isn't performing miracles. Last season they were largely crap and had two cup runs of which he Klopped the finals. If he gets no criticism for the tumescent league campaign because it wasn't his team, surely by the same token he can't get too much credit for the cup runs? His miserable league form got them to a dream position of no European football so can just focus on the league while other teams around them are either A) winning the league a.k.a Chelsea or B) competing in other cups and playing a lot more games a.k.a the rest of the top 6.
I think next season will be a struggle. A lot of fans genuinely thought every player will want to join Klopp and I don't think that's the case. They need a proper squad because they will be expected to go for the Champions League. He will find playing 50+ games in England with his style and lack of quality squad to be a major problem. I think it could look similar to the post-Suarez season. If he gets top 4 again next season that's a fair achievement, if not then he will be under a lot of pressure even from the fan base that thought Benitez was better than Ferguson, Mourinho etc;
He's not great, he's not bad. He's talented, but has plenty to prove.
I think next season will be a struggle. A lot of fans genuinely thought every player will want to join Klopp and I don't think that's the case. They need a proper squad because they will be expected to go for the Champions League. He will find playing 50+ games in England with his style and lack of quality squad to be a major problem. I think it could look similar to the post-Suarez season. If he gets top 4 again next season that's a fair achievement, if not then he will be under a lot of pressure even from the fan base that thought Benitez was better than Ferguson, Mourinho etc;
He's not great, he's not bad. He's talented, but has plenty to prove.
In his first full season he has won us more points than 7 of the previous 8, and there are still three games left to play; that is good in anyone's books.
He has already got us to two cup finals.
Our squad was a mess when he arrived and although admittedly thin on the ground it is much, much better now, we have a platform to build on and are third after all.
He has already got us to two cup finals.
Our squad was a mess when he arrived and although admittedly thin on the ground it is much, much better now, we have a platform to build on and are third after all.
I think he's done fairly well, but I'll judge next season. There's no excuses from either side. His critics can't complain that you aren't playing any other tournaments and his fans can't complain he hasn't had time. Remember, he's viewed as a manager that doesn't spend tons of money and he's even said he doesn't like doing that so there's no complaints.
The evidence of him juggling Liverpool in multiple competitions is that he can come close in one and fail miserably in the other. Again, sure he inherited a messy squad but that's the evidence on what a normal season would look like for Liverpool (I.e - playing European football, trying to win domestic silverware) so far.
I completely forgot they had no European football. Worse still when Coutinho goes to Barca this summer
I am not familiar with Tomkins' work outside of couple of articles he did on our tactics somewhere around 2011-12 season, all I can say is Rafa was managing a team at the club that was 50 million in debt before the two cowboys Hicks and Gillett bought it - via getting in debt with the Bank of Scotland. Rafa was also desperately trying to manage a team at the club ran by two cowboys that were unable to pay off their debts, unable to run the club together and above all unable to do what they wanted to do in the first place, sell the club to make a quick buck, never fulfilling their empty promises of 200 million dollar investment into new ground.
Once Rafa clashed with CEO Parry over player contracts, his career at the club was over. Compare this with Ferguson at the club where he was the absolute legend and had all the say since the 90s, it sure doesn't sound like a privileged position to be in.
I don't know anything about his staunchest defenders, I just know that he was a bright young British manager that brought us from 7th to 2nd place in one season of work, while simultaneously completely changing our style of play and offloading Kenny's mistakes such as Carroll, Adam and Downing.
He was probably naive or didn't understand his role when it comes to transfers well enough to not allow the committee to sign players for him and force him to work with them, and just like Klopp had to deal with the FSG policy of "we will not overpay for quality, and once other clubs do, we'll settle for lesser players instead".
I do agree his best season came about in large part because of Luis Suarez. That's Luis Suarez that went from scoring 17 goals in 2011-2012 season under Kenny, to scoring 30 in Rodgers' first season, then scoring another 31 in Rodgers' second season.
I'm guessing that's because Suarez had an epiphany and lord Jesus came down from heaven to tell him how to score more goals just as Rodgers was coming in.
Large chunk of goals scored by Liverpool in that season also came from Daniel Sturridge, who worked as Suarez's partner in the best attack of the league. Sturridge was a player Brendan "joke" Rodgers signed alongside Philippe Coutinho. Proper idiot of a manager indeed.
I will not comment on Suarez and his controversies and subsequent bans, not my place to do so.
20 years ago was in 1997. At that time we were already a club left behind by modern football, while United were the greatest club in the world, incredibly successful and full of greatest players ever, a squad of absolute footballing stars. Honestly, United were in large parts underachievers, given the world class status of their team and manager, and as I've said, looking at how poorly Liverpool Football Club was run, how it achieved debt and failed to sign any actually good players, Houlier worked miracles, making a squad of zeroes into a squad of heroes, without the commercial value and world star status of United and Ferguson.
Our "non-achievement" given the recent history is actually worthy of praise. You wouldn't expect Tottenham to win Champions League against the best club in Europe nowadays, yet back in 2005 it was somehow expected of us, a club that failed to finish in the top four that same year? I don't know, doesn't sound right, and yet we did it against all odds. Given the depths of hell we've fallen into back in the 90s, we should long ago get relegated and turned into a new Aston Villa, yet here we are, 27 years later still so close to the top, all thanks to great managerial minds such as Houlier and Benitez, all glory to them.
And again, United's incredible status of a world superpower back in the day should be enough for Ferguson to at least clinch domestic title every season, if not CL as well, though admittedly clubs like Madrid, Milan and Barca were pretty good and almost on par with United, but not quite. So it is quite strange he didn't do it every year, really really strange.
you're over-egging the pud now, Lizzie
Utd under achievement is
13 Titles,
5 Runners-up
3 Third places
I don't even know if that's right cos I only done a glance-count. I think 2 of the runners-up were a single point & one is a goal difference failure. How does that compare with LFC at their League winning peak, I haven't looked
The European Cup was a pretty soppy competition back in the day so 4 of those LFC triumphs should hardly count at all for me,.
Utd might have 'under-achieved' slightly in the CL but it's a long old slog now (was more hard) but I can live with that.
I think we done OK after 27 years in the wilderness, how are you expecting the LFC revival to pan out?
Utd under achievement is
13 Titles,
5 Runners-up
3 Third places
I don't even know if that's right cos I only done a glance-count. I think 2 of the runners-up were a single point & one is a goal difference failure. How does that compare with LFC at their League winning peak, I haven't looked
The European Cup was a pretty soppy competition back in the day so 4 of those LFC triumphs should hardly count at all for me,
.Utd might have 'under-achieved' slightly in the CL but it's a long old slog now (was more hard) but I can live with that.
I think we done OK after 27 years in the wilderness, how are you expecting the LFC revival to pan out?
@Lizard I presume you have forgotten about the Arsenal invincible years and their fantastic side and Chelsea and City becoming mega rich and getting in amongst the top.
You make it sound the early PL was a stroll in the park and United should have done more. Infact United displayed great resilience, desire and sheer determination to absorb each of the above challenges and mount title defence after defence and trophy after trophy. Double doubles, back to back titles and the treble are all domestic feats that may never be achieved again.
With regards to Europe we undoubtedly under achieved but we won two CLs and would have had more had we not encountered one of the best teams assembled a la peak Barcelona.
You make it sound the early PL was a stroll in the park and United should have done more. Infact United displayed great resilience, desire and sheer determination to absorb each of the above challenges and mount title defence after defence and trophy after trophy. Double doubles, back to back titles and the treble are all domestic feats that may never be achieved again.
With regards to Europe we undoubtedly under achieved but we won two CLs and would have had more had we not encountered one of the best teams assembled a la peak Barcelona.
I guess United's record is really impressive, I just think that when people look at our record as failure and not take into account the external factors, a comparison like that makes the argument hold at least some water.
With regards to Liverpool revival I'm not really optimistic, I think we're about 5 years away from where Spurs are right now, that is challenging for the title/consistent top four finish, unless Wenger steps down and we exploit Arsenal's crisis next season. Doubt we'll ever be PL champions, that spot seems somewhat cursed at this point.
I agree, though I think these money-fueled teams can get really overrated by everyone and are rarely consistent in their achievements. Doesn't take anything away from United's achievements of course.
You won the CL twice under Ferguson, & you were beaten twice by Barcelona. How do you explain the other 14 or 15 failed attempts ?
you're over-egging the pud now, Lizzie
Utd under achievement is
13 Titles,
5 Runners-up
3 Third places
I don't even know if that's right cos I only done a glance-count. I think 2 of the runners-up were a single point & one is a goal difference failure. How does that compare with LFC at their League winning peak, I haven't looked
The European Cup was a pretty soppy competition back in the day so 4 of those LFC triumphs should hardly count at all for me,
Utd might have 'under-achieved' slightly in the CL but it's a long old slog now (was more hard) but I can live with that.
I think we done OK after 27 years in the wilderness, how are you expecting the LFC revival to pan out?
I remember my Dad once saying to me that he felt the Busby Babes would have won at least 2 or 3 European Cups had it not been for the Munich tragedy. I imagine had this been the case Manchester United supporters of today might not have played down the competition - as it was back then - quite so much.
I'm still not 100% sold on our German manager. Great the way we can play & pick up points against the better sides. Bloody annoying how we play, & drop points, against the lower sides though. He's got his work cut out next season trying to balance the league, European football, & the domestic cups, so he can't afford too many mistakes in the transfer market.
We don't target top talents because we're a 2nd/3rd tier club who wouldn't attract such players. We couldn't compete anyway with the likes of United, Chelsea, City if, & when, these players become available. Spurs haven't really signed any top players in recent years, but they've got to where they are now by good management on & off the field. That's where we, as a club, should be trying to go.
So you aspire to be like Spurs?