Why not? Rodgers didn't sign Suarez after all. Although I do think he helped bring the best out of him.
Jurgen Klopp Sack Watch
- Thread starter Samid
- Start date
It was luck in the sense that every transfer is a gamble and I doubt many would have thought just how fantastic he would perform in the premiership as there have been many players who looked fantastic in Holland who then were complete duds in England.
Suarez was signed by Dalglish but he was at his best for Rodgers. He built team to get the best out of him.
What a lucky guy Klopp was, having all these players peaking under him. Truly a remarkable coiincedence. That he maybe, just maybe had something to do with their growth into top players is of course completely out of the question. It surely was not him, who encouraged Hummels to concentrate on his long passing and allowed him a lot of responsibilty and freedom in living out his offensive advances, turning him into the ball playing CB he is today- He also did not turn a struggling, mediocre striker into one of the best attacking fullbacks in Europe nor did he pull a talented offensive midfielder deeper into the central midfield and giving him the necessary positional awareness to make him one of the best box to box midfielder on the planet (I can continue this for a while, but you surely get the gist here).
Klopp is a fantastic player developer, it is the most dominant trait of his work as coach. It was this talent and the following reputation, which made his name one of the biggest pulls of Dortmund signing players. Many players cited him as one of the main reasons to join Dortmund, turning down financially superior offers in the process, every single player you named (and many others) cited at least once, how important and positive he was for their individual developments.
It is truly astounding how hard you hold onto your attempt to talk down a team which would have deserved to win the freaking Champions League. No, that team did not peak by then (they were one of the strongest sides in the history of club football at their peak), but they were stilll undoubtly an elite side. Anyone suggesting otherwise did not watch them enough. Period.
Ah, yeah, the good old myth of Bundesliga sides taking six seasons to adjust to Klopp´s way to play football. Just like your comparisions to Rodgers´ Liverpool it has one major flaw: the length of Klopp´s success at Dortmund. That team performed well for six straight seasons (five of them overperforming) despite having plucked away to players every year. That is a freaking eternity in modern football.
You can copy/paste as much blank numbers as you want without proper context (this is where your argumentation truly falls apart), one of the best measurements of the success of a football coach is comparing the team he took over to the team he left behind. Anyone seeing the galaxy wide difference in quality and not calling the relationship between Dortmund and Klopp a massive success story, (especially taking the low amount of money used for that transformation) needs to educate themselves about the topic before posting. He does not deserve sole credit for said transformation but his contribution was still massive.
are the scousers saying that Spurs played football and So lost and Leicester did not play footbal and so won?
No European football, also throwing the FA Cup early on and Klopp still can't sustain a decent title challenge.
Still, it was never going to dent his CV going there. About as close to a no lose situation for a manager as you could get. He'll leave them in the same state as he found them, i.e. shit.
Still, it was never going to dent his CV going there. About as close to a no lose situation for a manager as you could get. He'll leave them in the same state as he found them, i.e. shit.
What a lucky guy Klopp was, having all these players peaking under him. Truly a remarkable coiincedence. That he maybe, just maybe had something to do with their growth into top players is of course completely out of the question. It surely was not him, who encouraged Hummels to concentrate on his long passing and allowed him a lot of responsibilty and freedom in living out his offensive advances, turning him into the ball playing CB he is today- He also did not turn a struggling, mediocre striker into one of the best attacking fullbacks in Europe nor did he pull a talented offensive midfielder deeper into the central midfield and giving him the necessary positional awareness to make him one of the best box to box midfielder on the planet (I can continue this for a while, but you surely get the gist here).
Klopp is a fantastic player developer, it is the most dominant trait of his work as coach. It was this talent and the following reputation, which made his name one of the biggest pulls of Dortmund signing players. Many players cited him as one of the main reasons to join Dortmund, turning down financially superior offers in the process, every single player you named (and many others) cited at least once, how important and positive he was for their individual developments.
It is truly astounding how hard you hold onto your attempt to talk down a team which would have deserved to win the freaking Champions League. No, that team did not peak by then (they were one of the strongest sides in the history of club football at their peak), but they were stilll undoubtly an elite side. Anyone suggesting otherwise did not watch them enough. Period.
Ah, yeah, the good old myth of Bundesliga sides taking six seasons to adjust to Klopp´s way to play football. Just like your comparisions to Rodgers´ Liverpool it has one major flaw: the length of Klopp´s success at Dortmund. That team performed well for six straight seasons (five of them overperforming) despite having plucked away to players every year. That is a freaking eternity in modern football.
You can copy/paste as much blank numbers as you want without proper context (this is where your argumentation truly falls apart), one of the best measurements of the success of a football coach is comparing the team he took over to the team he left behind. Anyone seeing the galaxy wide difference in quality and not calling the relationship between Dortmund and Klopp a massive success story, (especially taking the low amount of money used for that transformation) needs to educate themselves about the topic before posting. He does not deserve sole credit for said transformation but his contribution was still massive.
You can be the best in the world at developing players and motivating them to perform above expectations, but that doesn't mean that it's going to happen to all of them, or even the majority. Fergie was great at it but United still signed and put faith in a number of players that ultimately ended up being a bit of a disappointment because they either didn't have the talent or drive we thought they had. Of course there's an element of luck involved in a number of cheap & free signings developing as much as they did under him because they had to have the ability and aptitude to do so in the first place.
I'm not saying they were shite, but they were undoubtedly in transition and coming through a period of instability. Arguing that 7 managers in 5ish seasons doesn't represent instability is just daft.
Performed well for six straight seasons with five being over-performances? Eh?
6th, 5th, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 7th. That was Klopp's reign. I'm assuming you're discounting his final season as performing well so I'll give you the six straight seasons, but five were not over-performing. They went back to 2nd the season after he left, and currently sit 3rd. Going back before he joined they finished 13th and sacked their manager, and before that 9th, 7th, 7th, 6th, 3rd and 1st. His first two were about par for the course but with signs of improvement, but once he raised the bar by winning back to back titles the next two were par for the course, and the last a huge disappointment. I'm not denying that winning when he did was over-performing because those expectations weren't there regardless of the situation of anyone else in the league, but once he'd done it, then done it again, the expectations were to challenge for the title in at least some capacity, even if it did mean finishing a distant second to a dominant Bayern.
I don't know how many times I have to repeat that he still did very well to do what he did. It was a great achievement, and as I said, lesser managers would have bottled it. Leverkusen could have won in 10/11 and Bayern in 11/12. That said, the final season was woeful, and was certainly affected by teams adapting to his tactics.
The resurgence of Dortmund and Klopp's involvement makes for a great football story, but that doesn't mean that certain factors didn't go in his favour during his time there.
I was wondering how long it'd take for a Dortmund fan to come to his defense so well done on being the first.
On the flip side you can never truly judge a manager who is only a third controlling the purchasing of a team that he then has to manage. I've never been a fan of transfer committee's. If someone offered me a job and then said by the way you personally will be publicly accountable above everyone else for decisions that you may be outvoted or vetoed on by two others; whilst those decisions are also one of the key parts that determines your success and failure... I'd tell them where to go. If I'm the one having to work with those decisions and be almost solely accountable for them, you better believe I'd demand ultimate say, with anyone else being in an advisory capacity.
This, basically. You can't polish a turd, as they say.
True, but you can laugh when everyone spent the first few months of the season claiming that the turd was actually gold
No, the final season was affected by injuries, losing lewandowski and his replacement never fitting in, and the simple fact that his time there with that group of players was over. They were second to last after the first 17 games. Finished 7th and made it to the german cup final in the second half of the season. They were the third best team in the league february-may
I'd say you are the one who isn't looking at what actually happened.
You seem to completely dismiss what Dortmund and Klopp did and how the team transformed during this period and instead only focus on what Bayern did or didn't do.. What has Bayern got to do with what Klopp achieved with Dortmund? I don't think anyone has praised Klopp for what he did solely on the fact that he won when Bayern Munich didn't. It's probably a bit more in it than that.
It's also a pretty sweeping statement to say that they couldn't keep up when Bayern "started firing on all cylinders again". It's more like they couldn't keep up when Bayern "emerged as a one of the absolute best teams in the world". Keeping up also becomes quite difficult when you lose a key player every single season and two of them even goes to Bayern. Very "fortuitous circumstances" for Bayern that, don't you think?
They are on course to finish 6th or 7th, which, putting aside their trophy-laden past, reflects where they are right now. Klopp is a talented manager as shown by his record in Germany but, without massive investment (which I don't see under FSG ownership), I am starting to think they will never get back to the top.
Didn't he say at the start of the year that he was happy with his squad, and he will have no excuses?
He never uses his squad as an excuse, tbf.
Just the wind, referees, United, the high number of games and increased tiredness, the low number of games and decreased match rhythm, the fans not singing enough, the other team playing long ball, and the other team having the whole town in the box. Did I miss something?
GNev being nasty about his new GK?
So Ian Ayre went to 1860 Munich?.
I think when assessing Klopp there's two ways we can do so. Compared to Liverpool fans/media (the delusional, which is most tbf) and what other football fans expectations of him and Liverpool were. If we go off the aforementioned he's not done enough. As has been pointed out here that fan base goes over the top when discussing their managers merits, but surely the best manager in the league with a better XI than United, Spurs, Arsenal etc; should be better off than 5th (having played a game more than us) and falling fast with no hope for any silverware? Especially considering all but Chelsea have the added distraction of Europe.
Again, that's the Liverpool way it seems. However, I don't see him as the second coming of Shankly or Paisley, nor do I think he inherited a squad full of elite players who would walk into other top six sides. I think he's where I expected them to be to be fair. Not any further back, not any further forward. Sort of like Arsenal but a few positions lower. Arsenal have leveled out, whereas the scouse are still very much a work in progress. It could get better and it could just as easily get worse. I think he should be judged at the end of his initial contract. He's not brought them down to Moyes levels of terror nor has he bored his audience to tears (see LVG), quite the contrary. Like I said he's took the 6th best team to probably 6th this season. He's steadied the ship so to speak, but has probably been a victim of their early season over achievements.
Klopp is clearly a talented manager, but his challenge is to prove he's a top notch manager. That has yet to be proven. I think it was impressive that he got somebody else's team to play in his image and get some very average players to punch above their weight. The drop off was inevitable and that's where the question is. Can he adapt? Can he cope with the pressure? Can he attract "his" players? If I were a Liverpool fan I'd be worried primarily at his and that clubs victim mentality and excuses making. In the past Mourinho and Ferguson have had pops at officiating, fixture congestion and whatnot, but you just know behind closed doors they are tough on their squad and very self accountable. I get the sense Klopp is the type of manager to feed it to his players that the ref's are against them, the weather is affecting them and there are too many games.
Again, that's the Liverpool way it seems. However, I don't see him as the second coming of Shankly or Paisley, nor do I think he inherited a squad full of elite players who would walk into other top six sides. I think he's where I expected them to be to be fair. Not any further back, not any further forward. Sort of like Arsenal but a few positions lower. Arsenal have leveled out, whereas the scouse are still very much a work in progress. It could get better and it could just as easily get worse. I think he should be judged at the end of his initial contract. He's not brought them down to Moyes levels of terror nor has he bored his audience to tears (see LVG), quite the contrary. Like I said he's took the 6th best team to probably 6th this season. He's steadied the ship so to speak, but has probably been a victim of their early season over achievements.
Klopp is clearly a talented manager, but his challenge is to prove he's a top notch manager. That has yet to be proven. I think it was impressive that he got somebody else's team to play in his image and get some very average players to punch above their weight. The drop off was inevitable and that's where the question is. Can he adapt? Can he cope with the pressure? Can he attract "his" players? If I were a Liverpool fan I'd be worried primarily at his and that clubs victim mentality and excuses making. In the past Mourinho and Ferguson have had pops at officiating, fixture congestion and whatnot, but you just know behind closed doors they are tough on their squad and very self accountable. I get the sense Klopp is the type of manager to feed it to his players that the ref's are against them, the weather is affecting them and there are too many games.
Don't write them off yet!
We need to win against Bournemouth and go above them - very important for us at this point in time.
We need to win against Bournemouth and go above them - very important for us at this point in time.
I think you'll find that most Liverpool fans on here were quite cautious during our good run earlier on in the season. Excited of course to see us play some wonderful football, but you'd struggle to find anyone of us saying we were going to win the league this season. Me personally I think it's a confidence thing along with the need for a bit of physical & mental steel in the side. I'd be surprised if we're still in the running for the top 4 come mid-April. Any change of form ain't going to happen overnight so I can still see us dropping quite a few more points from here-on-in. We need a couple of the other top 4 candidates to seriously drop their standards if we're to have chance of playing in the CL next season.
The Liverpool mates I know to be fair are cautious and even the one's that turn into nobs talking footy are more into United bashing then building them into gods gift to football. Just generally as a whole I find most of the fan base to be delusional.
I understand what you´re saying here. But Bayern having a transitional season is in no way to knock him off. United went on a run when Liverpool was in transition, and thankfully they feck up the transition for long periods and which United take the advantage they never relinquish. Having cheap players to become good also an actual sign of a good manager, not a stick to beat him with
Bayern not being at their best created a power vacuum that someone had to fill. I've said countless times that Klopp did well to fill that and establish Dortmund as essentially the 2nd best team in Germany from a their spot in the upper-mid-table when he joined, but that doesn't mean Bayern not being at their best wasn't a contributing factor to that. When Fergie left the same happened in the Premier League, and we've seen an unfancied Liverpool side have a charge at the title and Leicester City do the impossible. If it wasn't for that fact that the likes of Chelsea and City were equally as strong and Spurs and Arsenal not too far behind we could well have seen someone like Everton or Southampton make a quick charge to the top.
I've made another post highlighting what's happened in Germany. Bayern did pull ahead a fair bit once they'd stabilised, and to a degree not seen before, but that doesn't mean that their instability and prolonged transition didn't create an opportunity for someone else to establish themselves. And once again, Klopp did very well to do that with Dortmund.
There is some fortune involved there, but considering Lewandowski left on a free and Gotze because of a release clause, it was hardly entirely out of Dortmund's hands that they left. Additionally, failing to replace them or adapt to their departures accordingly lies solely with Dortmund and Klopp. There is a separation in the league now, as I've pointed out, that was initially between the top few sides and the chasing pack, and is now between Bayern, the next couple of teams, and then the chasing pack. The team(s) closest to Bayern actively strengthening them won't be helping that. It'd have been like Chelsea gifting United their best players between 07 and 09.
Sorry, you're going to have to elaborate on this apparent injury crisis because looking through their squads for the first half of that season not a single one has struck me as being particularly weakened at all, and in fact, look pretty much full strength.
In which case, you're genuinely arguing that one player leaving caused the 2nd best team in the league to be 2nd bottom at the mid-point, and bottom just a game later?
It's neither here nor there that Dortmund were 3rd best February to March, because August to January they were the literal worst, and short of almost the entire first team being unavailable, there's not really much of an excuse other than managerial shortcoming. It was a disaster.
Of course they were overperformances, you just completely ignore circumstances and context again. Have you any idea in what kind of state the team was when he took over? We were sitting near the relegation zone with the worst defense in the league. That he brought us in the position that we missed the International places by a single goal was already a small sensation. In his second season he started a major overhaul of the squad, because the old guard has to be replaced with little to no available money. He put his faith in young talents and declared the season as a transitional one. No regular Bundesliga follower would have put Dortmund in the International places back then, because the team still lacked quality and experience of the clubs of the top third. The Dortmund support would have been content with a safe midtable place and a Derby win. We ended up placing 5th.
The first title winning season was an obvious case as was the second when we ended up with a record breaking point tally and the cup win. The fith sesaon marked the extremely successful CL campaign when we defeated clubs who had individual players who cost more than our complete squad. There was also a notable shift of focus towards the CL the moment it became clear that Bayern would not show any weakness in the league. We simply did not have the financial ressourses to challenge on all fronts at the same time.
You talk about "fortuitous circumstances" for us, yet somehow forget to mention that Klopp had to replace key players every season and was up against a club that had 200+ Mil. € more annual revenue and a wage bill, which doubled ours for a long time.
Not being able to keep up with Bayern, especially in the 2012/2013 season, is no shame and flaw at all as they dominated club football as a whole that season. They would have dismantled every single league just like they did in the Bundesliga.
The point that you even go as far back as before the financial crisis which nearly destroyed the whole club and made us struggle with debt for half a decade afterwards to support your claim, shows me that there is no point arguing about Borussia Dortmund, though.
You either don´t want to acknowledge the hardships Klopp had to deal with the first years or simply lack the insight about what was actually going on before Klopp made us relevant again.
He's looking more & more like Deirdre Barlow.
By all accounts he didn't choose those players, they were identified and signed somewhat ironically by something resembling a transfer committee.
You aren't seriously comparing United, who went on to dominate English football for the best part of the next 20 years with Liverpool descending into mid-table, and Dortmund, who won silverware for two seasons before relinquishing the top spot to Bayern again?
You can by all means highlight that United took full advantage of Liverpool's decline, but their consistency for two decades following it is a very big distinction between what Ferguson did with us and what Klopp did with Dortmund.
United dominance over 2 decades is not only because of Fergie brilliance, but also because Liverpool was horribly managed after the 90s. They were the biggest English club at the time, but they didn't take advantage of that. The timing United have with Ferguson and the money that EPL is making is a huge factor in our dominance. I think if Liverpool was better managed, and the money man behind them had better foresight, they could give United more problems than they had.
Bayern was already a huge club with massive amount of money. It would be difficult for them to stay down for a long period of time. IMO, Klopp should be applauded for being able to take advantage as it happened. The fact that he can't take that advantage too long is down to the fact that Bayern is already one of the richest club in the world, and they realised to get their shit together much faster than Liverpool.
All I am saying is that you can't just dismiss Klopp achievement because he has some luck along the way. Most successful manager has some luck attached to their success. Ferguson had some, Mourinho has some. It is what they do with it that counts
I acknowledged that the league wins were overachieving, but once you'd managed back to back titles the bar had obviously been raised, so finishing 2nd after that wasn't really overachieving anymore. At some point finishing in the top 2 had to be viewed as not overachieving, and the season after back to back title wins seems as good of a time as any to raise expectations.
You missed out on European places by a point in 2006/07, and by just 2 the season before that, then woefully underperformed in 2007/08, which is precisely why you changed managers. However, despite your woeful underperformance in 2007/08, you finished 9 points clear of the relegation zone come the end of the season. You missed out on Europe by 2 points in Klopp's first season, which was basically putting you back where you were before, and qualified the season after. He did well to halt the slump, but to say he overperformed by returning to the norm is just exaggerating it. He did well in his first two seasons, overperformed in the next two, did well in his next two, and had a complete mare in his final season.
What key players did he have to replace? Genuine question now because to my knowledge, Sahin aside, no one that could be considered key left until the summer of 2012, which is when the annual sacrifice to Bayern began.
I've covered Bayern a fair bit, and the financial crisis stretched a bit further than the outskirts of Dortmund. Every other club would have had to go through it too.
I don't know what more to say. We'll go round in circles if we carry this on.
Well, obviously. Again though, there are distinct differences between Ferguson and Mourinho, and Klopp. Ferguson didn't just do it with one set of players for a couple of seasons, he did it with multiple sets of players over two decades. Of course there was good fortune that United got on top of the pile just as the Premier League and Sky money came rolling in, but they were already the biggest commercial draw in English football prior to that. Mourinho has won major trophies with multiple teams in multiple countries for the best part of 15 years now.
I'm not dismissing anything. I've said countless times that he did very well to do what he did, just that the performances since, i.e. the final Dortmund season and his time thus far at Liverpool seem to be indicating that it could well have been a relatively short period of success that he'll be lucky to replicate again, or elsewhere, without a similar turn of good fortune.
If he turns Liverpool around and gets them back up the table on a consistent basis, I'll have been proven wrong, I just can't see it happening because he's far too stubborn with his tactics and philosophy.
To be fair given it's Liverpool - they probably question the credentials of the fecking tea ladies.
It is another Scouse delusion that United got all the Sky money and Liverpool missed out.
This shows that Liverpool got only £65 million quid less than United in the PL's first 24 years, less than £3 million a season. It was sheer incompetence that they couldn't overcome that obstacle.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...y-season-figures-flight-history-revealed.html
ALL-TIME PREMIER LEAGUE PRIZE MONEY TABLE
1. Manchester United = £870,270,178
2. Arsenal = £842,767,443
3. Liverpool = £815,422,132
4. Chelsea = £815,365,323
5. Tottenham = £750,281,906
6. Man City = £723,497,948
7. Everton = £700,261,154
8. Newcastle = £649,353,497
9. Aston Villa = £649,236,912
10. West Ham = £585,267,008
11. Sunderland = £544,691,139
12. West Brom = £469,320,933
13. Fulham = £469,282,303
14. Stoke = £440,148,447
15. Southampton = £413,090,876
16. Blackburn = £407,374,059
17. Bolton = £377,782,130
18. Wigan = £327,522,594
19. Swansea = £324,027,184
20. Norwich = £286,386,229
21. Crystal Palace = £266,351,695
22. Hull = £257,682,121
23. Birmingham = £256,856,871
24. Middlesbrough = £249,050,677
25. Leicester City = £247,730,615
26. Portsmouth = £231,278,314
27. QPR = £206,823,399
28. Wolves = £197,532,615
29. Reading = £173,350,044
30. Burnley = £167,908,143
31. Charlton = £159,014,046
32. Watford = £126,834,655
33. Leeds = £125,476,974
34. Cardiff = £107,934,984
35. Derby = £107,637,845
36. Blackpool = £86,670,041
37. Bournemouth = £70,843,913
38. Coventry = £45,864,675
39. Ipswich = £44,843,315
40. Sheffield United = £44,775,780
41. Wimbledon £34,906,015
42. Sheffield Wednesday = £34,341,926
43. Bradford = £23,365,274
44. Nottingham Forest = £20,132,869
45. Barnsley = £7,673,144
46. Oldham = £3,418,187
47. Swindon = £1,895,182
48. Luton = £1,493,500
49. Notts County = £1,493,500
AND Football League = £23,926,231
Overall total = £14,788,455,945
I've always had a laugh when deluded Liverpudlians have a pop at our money. Don't they realize that it's because we actually earned it? We do things off the pitch well and on the pitch well. It's a good advantage but it's an earned advantage. They have spent more than Blackburn, Leicester, Arsenal who all have titles. Funny how they still say "well, they are shit. Not matter how many billions they spend they will win fa la". Well stop banging on about it then!
His overeagerness is a bit... Creepy.
I'm not going anywhere
I clicked play, and then I clicked stop, soon as I heard that laughter. Chills down my spine, that laughter of his, and he does it all the time, is very fake, extremely annoying, and every time I hear it, can't help but to remember that laugh from Michael Jackson's "Thriller" laughter at the end of the video.
'And whosoever shall be found
Without the soul for getting down
Must stand and face the hounds of Hell
And rot inside a corpse's shell...suit.'
"Ich habe 24 Umschläge."
How was he over eager in that clip? He was just talking normally. and god forbid he laughs.