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Jurgen Klopp and Dortmund
- Thread starter DiaboliQue
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Aren't they supposed to sell some shares and make 130mil euros from it? They have the money, but not as much as Bayern, but enough,
The problem is that they have to increase the wage bill to keep the players, but they have to do it slowly and not to all the players, as they are not good enough so they have to be careful how to do the change (BVB).
Anyway, the team is good enough for TOP 4, they play actually good football, but as someone mentioned the concede such stupid goals it's hard to believe, while the strikers can't score even if they lives would depend on it.
I would still wait, as I do remember SAF and a season where we were 14-15, but managed to win 14 games in a row, were first, but finished 3. I mean, he can still fix some things, but I do think that he should change the tactics a bit.
The problem is that they have to increase the wage bill to keep the players, but they have to do it slowly and not to all the players, as they are not good enough so they have to be careful how to do the change (BVB).
Anyway, the team is good enough for TOP 4, they play actually good football, but as someone mentioned the concede such stupid goals it's hard to believe, while the strikers can't score even if they lives would depend on it.
I would still wait, as I do remember SAF and a season where we were 14-15, but managed to win 14 games in a row, were first, but finished 3. I mean, he can still fix some things, but I do think that he should change the tactics a bit.
Question for those who've watched a lot of their games. Have teams found a way to deal with their counterattack style and they don't have a plan b?
is there any team that actually has a plan b? People say this everytime, when a good team is losing. Many comments will look utterly stupid, when he season ends.
Over the top. He's done a great job with them up to now and they play nice football to watch, it was easy to understand why people want him. This blip obviously takes something away from that but still I can't see many clubs, including top clubs, turning their nose up at him even after this shocking form. I can't think of many beyond Mourinho, Ancelotti, Guardiola and Simeone who are likely to be favoured over him.
He isn't the messiah some saw in him, and he is by no means a bad coach, either.
They relied a lot on set-pieces to score the first goal against teams that defended very deep last season, but with Reus injured all the time, they don't have anyone with great delivery. I'd say there's is a bit of change in their playing style over the past 2 years, they're more comfortable in possession and create quite a few chances from open play. It's hard to judge how good it actually works if they concede comical goals every game and waste many chances upfront though. Klopp definitely is trying to adapt, but obviusly it's not working well (yet).
Immobile hasn't really set the league on fire has he? So they're a Lewandowski down on last year.
It's different when you manage Mainz and BVB, you have spells with a bigger club [BVB are bigger than Mainz] when you don't do well, and by the way you never stop learning.
Should come and replace Giggs as assistant. 
Football fans are terrible.
A slump was inevitable. Ok, it's been worse than anyone could have expected. But no manager whose strategy involved losing their best player (or two) each season and replacing them with relative bargains and somehow carrying on at the same level was ever going to be able to maintain it for ever. None of the top managers he gets compared to - Guardiola, Mourinho, Ancelotti, Pellegrini, Van Gaal etc - have to work within financial constraints anything like Klopp's. He's hitting well above his weight. Only Wenger between 2006 and 2012 is anywhere close, which puts the complaints of Arsenal fans about him into sharp perspective if you ask me.
And I think ultimately the horrific season-long injury crisis they had last year is hitting them hard this year. So many players had to burn themselves right down to the ground to get them into the strong second place that they ended up in last season with so many of their key names missing. They pretty much played their second/third choice back line for the entire season. With some of those injuries still lingering now, that workload is coming back to bite them, and I think that accounts for the severity of the slump.
I'm very happy with Van Gaal, but if he unexpectedly quit next summer and we got Klopp I wouldn't have any concerns based on this season with Dortmund. Look at the amount of money we were able to spend this summer, even in a year where we made less money than anticipated. The circumstances of the two clubs are chalk and cheese.
And any Dortmund fan who already wants rid of him is raving. They'd be thrice buggered if they lost him now.
Did Honigstein say what lead to him to that conclusion?
It wasn't based on anything in particular.
I think he just didn't agree with the general consensus that Klopp would take over from Wenger, claiming that he thinks Klopp might prefer a Liverpool or United instead. I think he also mentioned that unlike quite a few players and even managers being based in London isn't a bonus for him.
Couldn't agree more. It doesn't look too good for Klopp at the moment, but writing him off based on this season so far without taking several very important factors into consideration is pure madness IMO. You might say his demanding playing style could be one of the reasons for this slump/massive injury list but a few of them have been freak injuries (Gündoğan being the main one). And yes it has been mentioned a lot but departures of their star names every damn season will eventually come back to haunt you. I'm surprised/impressed that Klopp has managed to delay that inevitable slump. Dortmund might have a solid economy now but Klopp still has to buy from the 2nd tier (bar maybe Reus but he was a special case). Overall his transfer history has been good but so far it looks like he fecked up with the replacements for Lewandowski - One of the best no. 9's/target man you'll find out there at the moment.
The main man behind the astonishing revival of one of Europe's great clubs (a thank you should also be directed at Bayern), impressive list of honours during his tenure, several bargain buys that turned into class players (Lewandowski, Kagawa, Subotić, Gündoğan, Piszczek etc.) and all this while playing perhaps the most entertaining football seen on this side of the Milennium (it doesn't hurt being extremely charismatic and well-liked by pretty much everyone either) – is now over the top.
As it stands, I would love to have him as a Manchester United manager at some point. Of course that might change, especially if this current slump turns into a trend, but he has shown so much in his career for me to even consider writing him off after only a few months of his team struggling to reach former glory. It will be interesting to see if can quickly manage to build another good squad and get the team out of this slump. Even if he fails to do it I will still consider him as a very good candidate for the manager position at United/City/Chelsea[Insert club from the top bracket] but he might not be the obvious choice that he was six months ago.
If Dortmund finish outside of the top 10, would Klopp's reputation be as dirty as Moyes', or would he get an 'out' because he keeps losing his players to Bayern?
One off season won't change much, obviously he won't be rated as highly but he has already proven what he's capable of and it's the very top level of performance when it comes to managers. You'd trust him to rebuild the team after already building a great side at Dortmund before.
Sports Director Michael Zorc: "BVB players contracts also valid for 2nd league"
http://www.merkur-online.de/sport/f...zorc-fehlerquellen-minimieren-zr-4500073.html
http://www.merkur-online.de/sport/f...zorc-fehlerquellen-minimieren-zr-4500073.html
And because of the vastly different financial situations of the two clubs. Remember Moyes casually dropping £40m on Mata in January?
He lost 2 players to Bayern. And that after seasons he already was 25 and 19 points behind Bayern.
That Bayern addiction is so wrong... There is 16 other clubs in the league who do not have Dortmund's budget. 15 of which are better in the table right now.
When Dortmund won the league they did not have Reus, Mkhitaryian, Aubemeyang, Ramos, Immobile, Sokratis...
Gündogan did not even play a role in that season as he needed time to adapt.
Maybe some of this players would not make the bench at Bayern - but they would be starting players in 16 other clubs...
This thread over the last few pages gives a really good summary of modern football fans.
Stop your retarded anti-BVB campaign already. We all know you hate this club from the bottom of your heart.
All of them actually.
I can't remember where, but at the end of last season, i heard that Dortmund's players might be upset and confused by the club inability to keep Gotze or Lewandowski, they apparently didn't understood why the club didn't fight for them.
And they thought that the club was losing too much distance from Bayern.
Is that true ? Could that explain a part of the problem, outside of the injuries ?
Stop your retarded anti-BVB campaign already. We all know you hate this club from the bottom of your heart.
Eh? Seems like a perfectly valid point.
There's an ezcuse for not challenging for the title. No excuse to be fecking bottom of the league after a 3rd of the season.
I still do, he's an excellent manager.
Some of the losses / draws were bizarre. Not sure how they managed to draw to Paderborn, well, they even had a goal incorrectly disallowed. They also should've won away to Franfurt on the weekend... it's fine margins at the moment. They need to win a couple of games in a row, they are certainly good enough to get out of this shit quickly, but the mental block is growing with every passing game.
Come on, he joined Dortmund when they were a mid-table side and transformed them into a title winning club in a short time, then built on that to the extent that they came close to winning Champions League. He's been presented with a big challenge this season after losing Gotze and Lewandowski and they haven't coped well but the circumstances haven't exactly been easy - most of his teams best players are either crippled by injuries or completely out of form.
Even last season despite clear step down from the season before they almost knocked out Real Madrid in Champions League (came much closer to it than Bayern for sure) and finished 2nd comfortably.
Like Ferguson deserved time even when his United side was far from title winning material Klopp deserves plenty of time and trust because he was the one who have moved Dortmund back into the elite.
Even last season despite clear step down from the season before they almost knocked out Real Madrid in Champions League (came much closer to it than Bayern for sure) and finished 2nd comfortably.
Like Ferguson deserved time even when his United side was far from title winning material Klopp deserves plenty of time and trust because he was the one who have moved Dortmund back into the elite.
Just to nitpick, Wolfsburg easily have Dortmund's budget since VW started to invest money into them again.
The general point is still true. There is no financial reason why Dortmund should be as bad as they are at the moment. They should reach a CL spot every season now.
Some recent numbers for the people who think Dortmund are poor because they don't have Bayern's budget.
Player wage budget (source: Handelsblatt) in the Bundesliga this season:
€160m Bayern München
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€78m Schalke 04
€75m VfL Wolfsburg
€73m Borussia Dortmund
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€55m Bayer Leverkusen
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€46m Hamburger SV
€42m VfB Stuttgart
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€39m Hannover 96
€38m Borussia M'Gladbach
€35m 1899 Hoffenheim
€34m Eintracht Frankfurt
€31m Herta BSC Berlin
€30m Werder Bremen
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€29m Mainz 05
€25m FC Köln
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€19m FC Augsburg, SC Freiburg
€17m SC Paderborn
Additionally they spend quite some money on transfers.
Net spend last 3 (last 5) years (source: Transfermarkt):
Bayern: €90.2m (145.8)
Dortmund: €49.4m (49.7)
Wolfsburg: €41.7m (74.7)
Hoffenheim: €24.3m (1.6)
Hannover: €19.7m (24.3)
Hamburg: €17.4m (10.6)
Schalke: €14.8m (6.7)
Frankfurt: €12.7m (11.1)
Augsburg: €8.3m (10.5)
Leverkusen: €8.1m (11.5)
Gladbach: €5.8m (9.7)
Mainz 05: €2.6m (-0.2)
Stuttgart: €2.3m (-12.2)
Paderborn: €-2.2m (-1.1)
Bremen: €-3m (-19.7)
FC Köln: €-5.3m (2.3)
Freiburg: €-9.9m (-20.5)
H. Berlin: €-11.7m (-16.4)
It's not even mid-season but with the money Dortmund spend on transfers, the wages they pay and the squad Dortmund have they should never be on a relegation place.
Sure, everyone has a slump every now and then, especially when you have as many players injured as Dortmund (Schalke have even more though), but they really shouldn't even be in the 2nd half of the table after 13 games.
Dortmund being in the 2nd half of the table is the equivalent of Bayern dropping out of the CL spots. Something that should never happen...
Luckily for Dortmund the winter break is not too far away now and I (and probably most other people) believe that they will get their shit together in the winter break.
After all, it would be very bad for the Bundesliga if Dortmund miss out on the CL spots (let alone the European spots altogether).
Since the loss against Arsenal Dortmund rightfully start to get more heat from the German press (their stella™ CL campaign + injuries prevented this so far), but the suggestion that Dortmund could fire Klopp is just ridiculous. They owe him far too much to just give him the boot mid-season.
Okay, the results have been bad but how have the performances been? Are they dominating games, creating chances but losing due to defensive mistakes and the failure to take the chances they created? Or is it that their whole play has become disjointed, a bit like us last year? Stopped watching Bundesliga since Bayern became so good.
I can't believe some people are making out it isn't that bad, or is somehow understandable / excusable.
Let's be clear about this: Dortmund being bottom of the league is about as bad as anything any team / manager has ever produced. It is absolutely shocking, and cannot be mitigated in any way.
The defences people are putting forward would carry weight if they were, say, 12th, but they're feckin bottom! In December!
One of the richest clubs in the league, with one of the most successful histories, back-to-back champions just 2 years ago, and a manager who has been in place for 6 years?
No excuses.
Let's be clear about this: Dortmund being bottom of the league is about as bad as anything any team / manager has ever produced. It is absolutely shocking, and cannot be mitigated in any way.
The defences people are putting forward would carry weight if they were, say, 12th, but they're feckin bottom! In December!
One of the richest clubs in the league, with one of the most successful histories, back-to-back champions just 2 years ago, and a manager who has been in place for 6 years?
No excuses.
Ah, total denial of any possibility that the opposing view has any merit. Always the hallmark of a reasonable position.
Clearly the situation is much worse than it should be, and Klopp has to take responsibility for that. But there are certainly factors outside of Klopp's control that have significantly contributed to what's happening to them. You can't just act as if the constant loss of their best players (genuinely world class players, mind, who Klopp has often conjured almost out of nothing), the limited funds available to replace them, the horrific injury crisis of last season and the continuing absences of key players this season don't qualify as serious mitigating circumstances.
There are fairly fine margins between the last and the second in the bundesliga at the moment; pointwise and performance wise. Only talking about their position is heavily misleading. 2/3 wins/loses from anyone but bayern and this team can be in a completely differnt region of the table.
Dortmund should do much better but their performances arent terrible; results are. Klopp isnt without fault, but he is still an excelent manager.He´ll turn it around. He might miss out on the CL, which is a pretty big thing, but shit happens.
Dortmund should do much better but their performances arent terrible; results are. Klopp isnt without fault, but he is still an excelent manager.He´ll turn it around. He might miss out on the CL, which is a pretty big thing, but shit happens.
Just to nitpick, Wolfsburg easily have Dortmund's budget since VW started to invest money into them again.
The general point is still true. There is no financial reason why Dortmund should be as bad as they are at the moment. They should reach a CL spot every season now.
Some recent numbers for the people who think Dortmund are poor because they don't have Bayern's budget.
Player wage budget (source: Handelsblatt) in the Bundesliga this season:
€160m Bayern München
------------
€78m Schalke 04
€75m VfL Wolfsburg
€73m Borussia Dortmund
------------
€55m Bayer Leverkusen
------------
€46m Hamburger SV
€42m VfB Stuttgart
------------
€39m Hannover 96
€38m Borussia M'Gladbach
€35m 1899 Hoffenheim
€34m Eintracht Frankfurt
€31m Herta BSC Berlin
€30m Werder Bremen
------------
€29m Mainz 05
€25m FC Köln
------------
€19m FC Augsburg, SC Freiburg
€17m SC Paderborn
Additionally they spend quite some money on transfers.
Net spend last 3 (last 5) years (source: Transfermarkt):
Bayern: €90.2m (145.8)
Dortmund: €49.4m (49.7)
Wolfsburg: €41.7m (74.7)
Hoffenheim: €24.3m (1.6)
Hannover: €19.7m (24.3)
Hamburg: €17.4m (10.6)
Schalke: €14.8m (6.7)
Frankfurt: €12.7m (11.1)
Augsburg: €8.3m (10.5)
Leverkusen: €8.1m (11.5)
Gladbach: €5.8m (9.7)
Mainz 05: €2.6m (-0.2)
Stuttgart: €2.3m (-12.2)
Paderborn: €-2.2m (-1.1)
Bremen: €-3m (-19.7)
FC Köln: €-5.3m (2.3)
Freiburg: €-9.9m (-20.5)
H. Berlin: €-11.7m (-16.4)
It's not even mid-season but with the money Dortmund spend on transfers, the wages they pay and the squad Dortmund have they should never be on a relegation place.
Sure, everyone has a slump every now and then, especially when you have as many players injured as Dortmund (Schalke have even more though), but they really shouldn't even be in the 2nd half of the table after 13 games.
Dortmund being in the 2nd half of the table is the equivalent of Bayern dropping out of the CL spots. Something that should never happen...
Luckily for Dortmund the winter break is not too far away now and I (and probably most other people) believe that they will get their shit together in the winter break.
After all, it would be very bad for the Bundesliga if Dortmund miss out on the CL spots (let alone the European spots altogether).
Since the loss against Arsenal Dortmund rightfully start to get more heat from the German press (their stella™ CL campaign + injuries prevented this so far), but the suggestion that Dortmund could fire Klopp is just ridiculous. They owe him far too much to just give him the boot mid-season.
Of course Dortmund shouldn't be on a relegation place. That is no question, and thats why everybody is shocked about that (even Thomas Müller according to Bild). But if we are honest and if we watch all games they played so far this season (not only the last one which was really bad), then we can easily say that they are still the 2nd best team in Germany in terms of quality and playstyle. But they fecked up too many results in ridicioulos ways (failing to score, couldn't break enemy's walls, poor individual mistakes in defense, bad day for the ref vs Paderborn for example etc.)
It's mostly their own fault that they are where they are now, but still they are a very strong side in my opinion (with strong i mean: Strong enough to even compete for the CL on their day) and they will rise up again this season (probably too late for top 4 though).
btw.: If i look on this numbers and see Hamburg and Stuttgart spending so much money... I can just....
There are 21 games to go, you judge managers on the full season not 13 games. If they end up 5th or 6th it certainly won't be worse than United's last season for instance. It has been bad but they are through in CL and it has to be said they have been very unlucky in the league, three more wins instead of unlucky defeats/draws and they'd be in for a CL spot now. It's all small margins.
Ah, there's nothing like the "stop stating your opinion, what do you think this is, a forum?" argument to close down a debate!
For the sake of Brightoninan please mentally pre-append all my posts with "It is my opinion that..." - as I can't be arsed typing it every time.
They would be serious mitigation for a failure to challenge for the title. If Dortmund were ineptly scraping around the mid-table like we did last year (and to an extent this, but fingers crossed that's behind us), then yes, we could point to those issues.
But, to reiterate, they are bottom. Below clubs like Freiburg and Paderborn. Do these clubs have players of the caliber that Dortmund have lost? Have they spend millions to replace such players, like Dortmund have?
To put it in perspective, can you imagine if any of United, City, Chelsea, Liverpool or Arsenal were bottom of the league? You'd be laughed out of town for trying to excuse it on the basis that they'd sold some of their best players.
To be honest, I'm struggling to make a judgment on this season's finishing positions. So I thought I'd comment on the current standings, it just seemed easier somehow.
The season isn't finished though, saying that a 13-game span is as bad as any manager has produced or worse seems silly when they've been plagued by injuries and still managed to get out of CL groups and have 21 games left. There have been managers who failed to progress from WC/EC groups with teams full of champions (France 2002, Italy 2010) or managers who managed to turn title-winning teams into a group of Ihni binni dimi diniwiny anitaime. Short crisis is all it is now, win 3 games and you'll barely remember they were bottom a few weeks back.
OK, I'll qualify it as being as bad a 13-game period as you can imagine.
13 games is a lot longer than a WC/EC group though - anything can happen in 3 matches.
13 games is a lot longer than a WC/EC group though - anything can happen in 3 matches.
Can't lose the feeling that their terrible form is down to 'arrogant' players and therefore also lack of progress in training. I mean, their playing style is all about being fit and running more than the opposition and that doesn't really work, they don't look energetic enough most of the time. Lewandowski was a really big part of their game, but that can't be all him missing.
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