Jurgen Klopp and Dortmund

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so what did they lose? 4 players in as many years. And it isn't as if they didn't get compensated.

Since they were Bundesliga Champion in 2010/11
They have Sahin and Kagawa back. They added Reus, Gündogan, Mkytharyian, Aubemeyang, Ramos, Sokratis, Immobile Ginter...

They lost a 20-year old talent that was injured very often and not their main man in any of the seasons and their striker

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Klopp as a replacement for LvG is like "Perlen vor die Säue werfen"... google the translation...
 
so what did they lose? 4 players in as many years. And it isn't as if they didn't get compensated, apart from Lewa, where they chose not to.

Sahin, who left and had his confidence destroyed.
Kagawa, same story as Sahin.
Gotze, one of the major talents in the side.
Lewandowski arguably the best #9 in the world.
Gundogan gets ruined by injury, and will take time to reach his previous world class level, if he ever does.

Take Carrick, Rooney, RvP, Di Maria and Blind out the United side, replace them with cheaper players, a lot of whom a lot of people haven't even heard of, and see what happens. Dortmund can't compete financially with the big boys when it comes to transfers.
 
so what did they lose? 4 players in as many years. 4 years should be time enough for a coach the calibre everyone thinks Klopp is to replace them. And it isn't as if they didn't get compensated, apart from Lewa, where they chose not to.

Don't find it this simple. Imagine if United were a smaller club and following the success of 96-99, big clubs raided United for the likes of Giggs, Scholes, Nevilles, Butt, Keane, etc. Then SAF would have had to 1) invest the money very wisely, i.e. hit the lotto, and 2) hope the academy churns out another mega class, which was a one-off anyhow. This is how I imagine what Dortmund are experiencing.
 
Is this the Liverpool thread? I seem to have lost my way and got confused. Scary how similar the season is panning out. :wenger:
 
Sahin, who left and had his confidence destroyed.
Kagawa, same story as Sahin.
Gotze, one of the major talents in the side.
Lewandowski arguably the best #9 in the world.
Gundogan gets ruined by injury, and will take time to reach his previous world class level, if he ever does.

Take Carrick, Rooney, RvP, Di Maria and Blind out the United side, replace them with cheaper players, a lot of whom a lot of people haven't even heard of, and see what happens. Dortmund can't compete financially with the big boys when it comes to transfers.
Don't find it this simple. Imagine if United were a smaller club and following the success of 96-99, big clubs raided United for the likes of Giggs, Scholes, Nevilles, Butt, Keane, etc. Then SAF would have had to 1) invest the money very wisely, i.e. hit the lotto, and 2) hope the academy churns out another mega class, which was a one-off anyhow. This is how I imagine what Dortmund are experiencing.

in 4 years, not in one. One each year. Other teams lost a key player before.
Losing several in one year, it would be understandable, like with the Saints... oh wait.
 
There's plenty of examples of a club selling a world class player and struggling to replace him, any ambitious club would prefer to hang onto the world class player than have the money from selling him.

Indeed Liverpool have been struggling after losing their best player(s) - Suarez and Sturridge.
However, to end up bottom of the league?
This is not a good advert for a manager who is held in such high esteem.

I'm not demanding Mourinho levels of results/consistency - but not being at the bottom of the league is not unreasonable.
 
And for every S'oton, you can probably find other clubs that dropped well off, like Liverpool. And this season isn't half-way through. Saints won't hold up, everyone knows this.
so would you say, with a warchest of 80+Mio, it is impossible (or very hard, or depending on luck) to replace a player the likes of Sahin or Kagawa?
 
Crazy how fast things can change, this guy was the biggest thing in football management a year ago, he was so far out of reach even for a club like ourselves that when he got mentioned in the summer people laughed it off. I bet he'd take the Arsenal job tomorrow if it came up.
 
Conveniently forgetting Gotze and Lewandowski, eh?

SAF never fully utilized the "warchest" received for Ronaldo.
that may be a cause for Uniteds demise, couldn't it? And Kloppo did use it, only with little effect. They bought Immobile, Reus, Mikhytaryan, Aubameyang, Sahin, Ginter, Jojic... also sent away Bittencourt and Leitner.
 
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Conveniently forgetting Gotze and Lewandowski, eh?

SAF never fully utilized the "warchest" received for Ronaldo.

But that is the art - even for top clubs. If you want to stay on top you have to make constant changes. Dortmund had enough financial success the recent seasons and invested enough money.

They got Gündogan for Sahin and Reus for Kagawa. Mkytharyan and Aubameyang for Götze and Ramos and Immobile for Lewandowski. The first two probably were even an upgrade.
 
But that is the art - even for top clubs. If you want to stay on top you have to make constant changes. Dortmund had enough financial success the recent seasons and invested enough money.

They got Gündogan for Sahin and Reus for Kagawa. Mkytharyan and Aubameyang for Götze and Ramos and Immobile for Lewandowski. The first two probably were even an upgrade.


Over the last 2 seasons they lost much more players than "just" Götze and Lewandowski, didn't they? Or didn't they lose(!) the likes of Gündogan, Kuba and Subotic? This season they pretty much even lost Reus so far on top of that.


And even if you sign 100 Immobiles and 100 Ramos', just one of them can replace Lewandowski on the pitch. And they are not even half the player...
 
Over the last 2 seasons they lost much more players than "just" Götze and Lewandowski, didn't they? Or didn't they lose(!) the likes of Gündogan, Kuba and Subotic? This season they pretty much even lost Reus so far on top of that.
other teams had injury streaks, didnt they.
And even if you sign 100 Immobiles and 100 Ramos', just one of them can replace Lewandowski on the pitch. And they are not even half the player...
Well if Lewa was so important (funny i didn't read about it while he was still there), then signing 2x half the player didn't cut it.
 
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And for every S'oton, you can probably find other clubs that dropped well off, like Liverpool. And this season isn't half-way through. Saints won't hold up, everyone knows this.

I don´t get the Southampton comparison in the first place. Yes, they do very well given their circumstances, but so did we for three years. We lost a key player every season but did well in compensating that for a fairly long time.

This season it did not work out, but Ramos and Immobile failing the fill the void which Lewandowski left behind is only one small part of the current problems.

We can discuss tactics all we want, but if the vast majority of the lost points comes down to individual feck ups in the defense and extremely poor chance conversion in the offense, I have a hard time pointing towards the guy on the side lines when it comes to blame.

This crisis is largely down to the players, which is also why most of the anger of the supporters is directed to them and not Klopp:

- Talents, who stagnate in their developments and are currently doing more harm than good (Ginter, Durm, Jojic)

- Players, who had their careers disrupted by larger injuries and are nowhere near their normal abilities (Subotic, Bender, Gündogan, Piszcu)

- New guys, who failed to integrate themselves, which is extremely hard if the team is so unstable (Immobile, Ramos, Kagawa)

- Important, in some cases even lead players who are currently in slumps and fail to take charge on the pitch (Kehl, Weidenfeller, Großkreutz, Mkhitaryan)

- Injured key players, who have the ability to turn things around in top form (Hummels, Reus, Sahin)

If you have some of these cases, you might be able to buffer it with the collective strength of the team, but if basically only two players (Sokratis, Aubameyang) consistently perform to the expected standard, you simply won´t get decent results. Add to that the common downward spiraling mentality (here probably lies the one point, where Klopp is partially to blame) and a good portion of rotten luck and you land where we are right now.

What we probably need the most right now is time, which we won´t get until the Winter break. We somehow have to get there with as much points as possible and then refocus and attack in the second season half (similarily how we did last season). Klopp is still far from being in danger of being sacked, though. He has still too much credit amongst the supporters and officials.
 
How is Kagawa doing in Dortmund anyway, haven't really followed them this season
 
@Sphaero

You are right with all your arguments you made. But the tactics are part of it, too. It is not that all of this started this season - there have been problems before. The tactics of the other teams against Dortmund just have changed the last three seasons - and yes, maybe with full power and on best form Dortmund still will beat everybody easily as full-pressing-monster but you cannot expect that 34 matchdays each season so you have to adapt. And it seems to not being good for the injury front either.

To make that system working you need 10 field players that are willing to run a lot for each other. To get them to do so is very difficult.

We can talk about that individual mistakes of the defense - but more often the mistake already was made before that. In the winning seasons it did not matter that Schmelzer is just a mediocre full back as he had a lot help from the others.

If the pressing does not function - if the offensives and midfield do not work good together, have easy ball losses in dangerous moments or do not press or press wrong, the defenders are much more in danger to do this mistakes...
 
Say they finish bottom half of the table and lose Reus in the summer. Are they financially secure enough to challenge for top 4 next season or will they find it hard to get back to the top 4?
 
Say they finish bottom half of the table and lose Reus in the summer. Are they financially secure enough to challenge for top 4 next season or will they find it hard to get back to the top 4?

We will write black numbers even without CL or EL according to the officials. So, yes on the first question.
 
Say they finish bottom half of the table and lose Reus in the summer. Are they financially secure enough to challenge for top 4 next season or will they find it hard to get back to the top 4?

They say that they are debt free now. And their revenue exceeds that of the other 16 clubs without Bayern. So yes, they should. But money just is not everything - not in this league in which there is some teams that perform far better than their budgets tell and others that consistently do the opposite.
 
He already had this learning curve at Mainz. He first got them from second into first Bundesliga. Then they were relegated again. And when he was not able to get them back into the Bundesliga in the first season after relegation he went to Dortmund.

Took over Mainz in 2000/01 in midseason on a relegation rank

2000/01 14th 2nd Bundesliga
2001/02 4th 2nd Bundesliga
2002/03 4th 2nd Bundesliga
2003/04 3rd (relegation playoffs) 2nd Bundesliga
2004/05 11th 1st Bundesliga
2005/06 11th 1st Bundesliga
2006/07 16th 1st Bundesliga (lost the playoffs against MSV Duisburg)
2007/08 4th 2nd Bundesliga
and then he went to Dortmund
His learning curve is over the day he retires.
 
For all the talk about the players they lost, what's hurting them the most this season is their defense. They concede so many comical goals and are constantly on the back foot, way too often chasing the game or giving away a lead by conceding the cheapest goals imaginable. While they have a few injuries in defense, they have a lot of depth this season and the constant panic at the back is something that you can coach out of the team in my opinion, adjust the tactics, allow the defenders to play it safe until they got their confidence back. It's just shocking how no matter who plays out of Hummels, Subotic, Sokratis or Ginter, they always look like headless chicken. And nothing changes. I was confident that Klopp can get the defense sorted and the team will push on from there to reach top 4, because there's too much individual quality in the team (they haven't lost any of their great defenders in the last 4 years after all). That was about 2 months ago and so far there's no improvement at all.
 
For all the talk about the players they lost, what's hurting them the most this season is their defense. They concede so many comical goals and are constantly on the back foot, way too often chasing the game or giving away a lead by conceding the cheapest goals imaginable. While they have a few injuries in defense, they have a lot of depth this season and the constant panic at the back is something that you can coach out of the team in my opinion, adjust the tactics, allow the defenders to play it safe until they got their confidence back. It's just shocking how no matter who plays out of Hummels, Subotic, Sokratis or Ginter, they always look like headless chicken. And nothing changes. I was confident that Klopp can get the defense sorted and the team will push on from there to reach top 4, because there's too much individual quality in the team (they haven't lost any of their great defenders in the last 4 years after all). That was about 2 months ago and so far there's no improvement at all.

Any top manager could face a similar spell, specially at a club like dortmund where money is tight and stars can't be easily replaced, and while they're making plenty of silly mistakes defensively, they're really struggling for goals as well, which shows how they miss Lewandowski.

I think the good vibe they had before isn't there at the moment, confidence is low, each summer they lose a top player an they already know reus and maybe hummels are on their way out next summer, we've learned at united how things can deteriorate fast if you fail to invest in the squad over a long period of time.
 
Any top manager could face a similar spell, specially at a club like dortmund where money is tight and stars can't be easily replaced, and while they're making plenty of silly mistakes defensively, they're really struggling for goals as well, which shows how they miss Lewandowski.

I think the good vibe they had before isn't there at the moment, confidence is low, each summer they lose a top player an they already know reus and maybe hummels are on their way out next summer, we've learned at united how things can deteriorate fast if you fail to invest in the squad over a long period of time.
They did invest a lot though, they had the highest net spend in the league this summer. And they are fecking bottom of the table, behind many teams from which they bought the best players. Ramos scored 16 goals for Hertha last season and was probably their most important player and is now mostly rotting on the bench at Dortmund, Ginter was one of the top 3 performers at Freiburg. Immobile was top scorer in Italy last season. I'm sure they all were heavily excited when they joined the club. The whole club and the fans talked about having the best squad they ever had and how they'll push on now. I understand that you can get into a downward spiral that's difficult to leave. Losing Lewandowski or having bad luck with injuries could be a fair enough excuse if they sit 5th or 6th in the table, but if your defense is worse than the one from which you bought the best defender and if your attack is worse than the one from which you bought the best attacker, then it starts to get ridiculous to blame it on losing Lewandowski.
 
Top 4 will soon be out of question if they don't pick up soon, basicaly between now and the last game of Autumn round they have to win all games - and even then their points tally halfway through season will be absolutely terrible (23 points from 17 games).

Hoffenheim H
Hertha A
Wolfsburg H
Bremen A

To be fair at his point I won't be surprised if they draw to Hoffenheim and lose the other three.

They will have to concentrate fully on Champions League because that's probably the only way they are going to make Europe this season and needless to say their chances of winning CL are very, very slim.
 
Top 4 will soon be out of question if they don't pick up soon, basicaly between now and the last game of Autumn round they have to win all games - and even then their points tally halfway through season will be absolutely terrible (23 points from 17 games).

Hoffenheim H
Hertha A
Wolfsburg H
Bremen A

To be fair at his point I won't be surprised if they draw to Hoffenheim and lose the other three.

They will have to concentrate fully on Champions League because that's probably the only way they are going to make Europe this season and needless to say their chances of winning CL are very, very slim.
They haven't a hope in the CL, would have been better finishing third in the group and going into the Europa League, winners of that get CL next season
 
They haven't a hope in the CL, would have been better finishing third in the group and going into the Europa League, winners of that get CL next season

No chance of that unfortunately, I agree that they will probably be knocked out by the first very good team they face this season. Even Arsenal in disarray managed to get a win against them lately. Their team looks good on paper but they could barely get themselves performing with all the injury trouble and general lack of form. It doesn't help when you lose your best player for a lengthy period.
 
Hope they get relegated unlikely as it is. Ultimate hipster club of the last few seasons.
 
No chance of that unfortunately, I agree that they will probably be knocked out by the first very good team they face this season. Even Arsenal in disarray managed to get a win against them lately. Their team looks good on paper but they could barely get themselves performing with all the injury trouble and general lack of form. It doesn't help when you lose your best player for a lengthy period.
I was so surprised my some of the pundits, Paul Merson in particular, creaming themselves over Arsenal's win against them during the week! A dortmund team in disarray at the Emirates, of course Arsenal should have won, even if they're not in great form themselves!
 
Two wins on the trot and everything will be right as rain.
Sure, but been hearing this same thing for a while now
Being the 11th ranked club in the world in terms of revenue is surely the core reason for trailing the league.
Good point and I was just going to query this. They have the second highest revenue in Germany, but they don't have a very high wage bill either. Where's the money going?
 
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