I always think people overlook his time at Mainz. He had an unremarkable playing career there as they struggled in midtable and occasionally flirted with relegation to the 3. Fußball-Liga. As soon as he retired he became manager and in that time they went from strength to strength. He took over a team that finished just 3 points off the relegation spots and turned them into promotion challengers within a season, got them promoted for the first time in their history in three seasons and finished 11th in consecutive seasons in the Bundesliga. With limited resources he couldn't keep them in top division but he stayed with them when they got relegated and got within two points of promotion once more. I don't think he needs to prove himself at all because he's shown plenty of skill and character already. It could possibly be the right time for him and Dortmund to part ways but he'd be sought after by practically every team in Europe even if Dortmund struggle all season.
Jurgen Klopp and Dortmund
- Thread starter DiaboliQue
- Start date
- Status
Shhh. That was only relevant when he was going to be Spurs manager.
he has nothing to prove about coaching a team to the top. He has, in fact, a few things to prove that he can keep a team up there. About his character - well, let me put it that way: He has a record of blaming everyone about failing but himself. His charme made many a pundit overlook that not so likeable feature of his personality.
The last numbers I read about Dortmund's wage bill were 107.8m EUR (via Focus - and Bayerns now 180m EUR after the renewal of some contracts). Both have a wage/revenue relation of about 40 per cent.
Maybe an interesting graphic about the chance conversion in the Bundesliga - I added the numbers for Dortmund of the recent three seasons. Yes - with the old chance conversion Dortmund would have a lot more goals. But I think it is interesting that in the three years before Dortmund had about 35 to 36 % of the shots from out of the box. And now that went up to 45%. If you do not have the great distance shooters you usually try to get into the box to shoot. The chance conversion of the shots from out of the box this season are 0%.
Data source is whoscored
How many Bayern managers actually proved that they can keep a team at the top for more than 4 seasons? Obviously Klopp shouldn't be compared to Lattek or Hitzfeld (yet), but what other German manager did actually prove what you want from him? For example, we fired Heynckes in his 5th season in 91/92 after a bad start 12 games into the season and he was the last Bayern manager who kept us in the top 2 for 4 consecutive seasons, which is what Klopp did in the past 4 seasons at Dortmund. Since then, Heynckes never stayed at any club for more than 2 years. Did he ever prove what you're talking about?
I really enjoy Dortmund being so far down the table, and I enjoy it more everytime Watzke or Klopp take a dig at Bayern when they really should focus on themselves at the moment. Klopp's comment on Sunday that people should become Bayern fans when they want success every year was embarrassing in my opinion. I always liked that our coaches stayed away from the silly fights with other clubs that Hoeneß and Rummenigge got into. Obviously Klopp deserves some criticism at the moment, a lot actually and it's good that the media finally stopped making excuses, but the criticism shouldn't go so far that we question the incredible job he did in the past 6 years. That's just bitter in my opinion.
Another poor statement by Klopp (after the Bayern Munich comments on Sunday)
What does that say in English?
I really wonder what happened to the 'we only think about the next game and everything else doesn't interest us' approach, that made them so successful up until 2012. It's the perfect moment to go back to that and to stop talking about anyone else, even though that Hoffenheim comment was obviously just a poor attempt at a light-hearted joke.
Dortmund lost the last game of the 12/13 season at home against Hoffenheim with an awful performance in the 2nd half of the game. After leading 1-0 at halftime, they lost 1-2 and Hoffenheim escaped relegation in the last minute. It's obviously disrespectful to make it sound like Dortmund gifted them the win instead of accepting that Hoffenheim actually fought till the last second and played well to win that game. He really should just shut up at the moment and focus on the upcoming game against Hoffenheim. Everything he says will be twisted and turned against him at the moment, now that they aren't the hyped up underdog playing beautiful football anymore but a big team that underperforms significantly.
"We allowed Hoffenheim to stay in the league by playing a really bad game. I hope they remember"
Dortmund lost the last game of the 12/13 season at home against Hoffenheim with an awful performance in the 2nd half of the game. After leading 1-0 at halftime, they lost 1-2 and Hoffenheim escaped relegation in the last minute. It's obviously disrespectful to make it sound like Dortmund gifted them the win instead of accepting that Hoffenheim actually fought till the last second and played well to win that game. He really should just shut up at the moment and focus on the upcoming game against Hoffenheim. Everything he says will be twisted and turned against him at the moment, now that they aren't the hyped up underdog playing beautiful football anymore but a big team that underperforms significantly.
Edit: @Balu was too fast 
Thanks @Balu I agree with you're saying about Klopp. Should be doing their talking on the pitch, not being a patronising rent a quote.
Last edited:
This will only make him better in the long run??
If they manage to break out of this slump and get a CL spot he will be crowned the maker of fairytales all over again and come out even better suited for a job at the top. The other scenario is the one no one believes, BVB will keep on loosing and Klopp will have to step down or be sacked and that might dent his career beyond repairable..
I for one believe that he will get them going again BVB have had some terrific run after the XMAS break in the past. So if he get´s some points on the board before the break and comes out guns blazing after it I see this happening.
The last numbers I read about Dortmund's wage bill were 107.8m EUR (via Focus - and Bayerns now 180m EUR after the renewal of some contracts). Both have a wage/revenue relation of about 40 per cent.
Maybe an interesting graphic about the chance conversion in the Bundesliga - I added the numbers for Dortmund of the recent three seasons. Yes - with the old chance conversion Dortmund would have a lot more goals. But I think it is interesting that in the three years before Dortmund had about 35 to 36 % of the shots from out of the box. And now that went up to 45%. If you do not have the great distance shooters you usually try to get into the box to shoot. The chance conversion of the shots from out of the box this season are 0%.
Data source is whoscored
The numbers I had were pretty recent, too.
Weird, but the higher numbers are probably correct. Are those wage numbers also only for players or for players and the coaching staff?
That's an interesting graphic.
Dortmund's numbers certainly strengthen the feelings you get when you watch Dortmund this year:
That they get/create less easier chances in the box because they struggle to break down teams when most teams are defending almost as deep against Dortmund as they did against Bayern for years now.
And that their finishing is really off. They still create a lot of chances in the penalty area but...you know you're in deep shit when your conversion rate is worse than anyone's bar Hamburg's.
Also Hertha, Eintracht and FCA with some very good finishing from outside the box.
Yes, prove himself. Doing so involves showing multiple different successes in different scenarios. Plenty of good managers have done amazing things in one environment for a period of time, only to either find that when the challenge changes (either with a change in fortunes like BVB are currently facing or a move to a new club) they struggle.
The great managers are the ones who prove themselves to be able to succeed in different environments, and to that extent, this current slump could prove good for Klopp if he turns it around and gets them back to the top - that would be a big step to proving himself.
All managers will have downs as well as ups as the different scenarios arise, but the greats ensure the latter outweight the former.
Yes, could well work out that way.
Jeez because that wasn't a joke, right?
Seriously you Bayern fans on here are way to butthurt about what Klopp says. Those are the comments of an angry, man who looked pretty clueless and out of ideas after their last game. When there are problems in Dortmund they have started throwing some tiny rocks towards Bayern in the past but the best reaction was always to ignore it.
I mean seriously haven't you guys grown a thicker hide by now? You should be used to everyone hating you but your own fans. I thought you love that?
Then write down all scenarios Klopp has to prove himself in so that you could rate him as a manager.
You can already put a check next to transforming a lowly 2. Bundesliga side who have never even been in Bundesliga into a team capable of holding themselves pretty well in the top division and transforming a mid-table Bundesliga team heavily in debt into one of the best teams in Europe, winning two consecutive titles and finishing runner-up in Champions League they had no hope of entering for the best part of a decade prior to his arrival.
Of course he has to spend 25 years at one club rebuilding them numerous times (because Ferguson did so) and win international competition with a side that never won it before (Rehaggel), he might also need to win all top leagues (Mourinho) and finish top half with Bolton (Allardyce).
It's like all the nonsense about Guardiola and Mourinho not being great managers because they only won stuff with rich and good teams.
There's no need to spell out specific scenarios, but it's perfectly reasonable to suggets that he needs to have a few different ones.
Mainz does add to his CV, but there have been plenty of managers who have brought up and / or kept up small clubs.
The work that has, rightly, got everybody's attention is with Dortmund - though even they aren't the minnows you make out... They're the 2nd most succesful club in German football, historically!
Good examples, actually.
Mourinho was nowhere near being classed as a great when he left Porto. His work at Chelsea kept him well on the path, but I would say it wasn't until he went on to do so well at Inter that he really joined the top echelon.
Similarly Guardiola could never be classed amongst the greats purely on his four years at Barca (though it's hard to imagine much of a better start on that path). What he is now doing at Bayern is starting to move him into that area. Tellingly, there was a period last season when people were questioning him, and it's not hard to draw comparison's to Klopps current situation.
Historically Ajax are an European great, doesn't mean that you could walk into the job and win CL with them now because they used to do so in the past. Dortmund were deeply in crisis when Klopp went there.
I'd say winning the most unlikely CL with Porto and the first in 50 years title with Chelsea had already put him up there.
Because that team basically played itself, right? His job at Barca alone puts him in the very top bracket of managers.
Sorry, but you're exaggerating - It was only 6 years since they'd last won the Bundelsiga, and the season before he took over they made the cup final. They were in a slump, but hardly a long-term one.
And yes, the finances were a mess - nobody's pretending Klopp hasn't done a fantastic job on a very limited budget. But that was down to earlier mis-management. They were half-way through a recovery which today sees them just about debt free.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that. I believe that sometimes a manager and club / players / circumstances can align perfectly to produce a reuslt that is more than the sum of the parts. This isn't to say that the parts aren't exceptional, but to be able to differentiate the instances in which the manager can be singled out as in the very top bracket, you need to see him replicate achievements over a longer period of time / in a different scenario.
Was it?? I don't know....i haven't seen or heard it on TV......I've just seen this statement on Twitter
Jeez because that wasn't a joke, right?
Seriously you Bayern fans on here are way to butthurt about what Klopp says. Those are the comments of an angry, man who looked pretty clueless and out of ideas after their last game. When there are problems in Dortmund they have started throwing some tiny rocks towards Bayern in the past but the best reaction was always to ignore it.
I mean seriously haven't you guys grown a thicker hide by now? You should be used to everyone hating you but your own fans. I thought you love that?
I have nothing against Klopp and actually i'm a fan of him/his work....but he makes too many mistakes on and off the pitch in the last months imo
Any Dortmund fans that can give their opinion on Mkhitaryan this season?
Some of the trashy papers are claiming Klopp has run out of patience with him, I rated him very highly when he signed as I'd seen him a few times for Armenia and Shakhtar. Is there any truth to these stories does anyone believe?
Some of the trashy papers are claiming Klopp has run out of patience with him, I rated him very highly when he signed as I'd seen him a few times for Armenia and Shakhtar. Is there any truth to these stories does anyone believe?
Of course he made mistakes and he knows it but it's usually his manner to crack a sarcastic joke or make a stupid comment about Bayern if things aren't going for him and his team. I mean there is no doubt about him being a bad loser but then again most managers who are driven by the desire to win are this way.
Concerning his mistakes I don't think he did too many. One could argue that Dortmund needs to change their playing style, like I already did and need to look after stabilizing their defense but let's be honest everyone thought Dortmund was just one win away from turning this season around till 2 games ago. That's why I don't really feel he made too many mistakes by sticking to what made them so successful in the last 4 years but naturally if you are dead last in the league you must have made some mistakes and I think he already said after the last game that the critique he is getting atm is deserved. Especially their transfer policy is under some fire as there were too many players brought in that don't seem to fit their system at all and other that have just been awful since they joined. While I feel Dortmund had made good choices in the players they go in for a couple of years the last two transfer windows weren't that great at all and losing Lewandowski has hurt them a lot, at least in the league.
Of course Klopp will now have to show if he can turn it around and get the lads back on their feet. I mean they haven't all turned to shit over night I'm pretty sure if anything this is more of a mental thing than anything else but a great manager needs to be able to fix mental problems just as much as tactical ones.
Massive game against Hoffenheim today, should be a good watch to see how they deal with the immense pressure. A win is a must, but Hoffenheim are no pushovers.
Come on Hoffenheim!
Not a fan of Klopp/Dortmund?
Kagawa on the bench
Huge game for both teams this, but particularly Dortmund. A win could kick start, something...
Huge game for both teams this, but particularly Dortmund. A win could kick start, something...
Thing is I actually rate Hoffenheim. After losing to a bunch of average teams Dortmund now have to get a result against a pretty good one.
Not really anything against them.
But I find this whole situation interesting. I'd love to see what happens if Dortmund have a truly horrible season.
Hummels take a bow.
Such a bad performance. No excuses either because that was a strong lineup. Resorted to launching balls up.
Subotic has been dire this season. Sokratis has overtaken him.
Mkhitaryan couldn't finish his dinner and the strikers have been rank. If they lose Reus then they need reinforcements to score some goals.
Subotic has been dire this season. Sokratis has overtaken him.
Mkhitaryan couldn't finish his dinner and the strikers have been rank. If they lose Reus then they need reinforcements to score some goals.
At what point do they sack Klopp? I know they lost at the weekend but it's only now I found out that the team they played was bottom of the league before the weekend.
This is far more than a small patch of bad form, they're now on their winter break and are sat in the relegation zone, possibly bottom if Freiburg win today.
This is far more than a small patch of bad form, they're now on their winter break and are sat in the relegation zone, possibly bottom if Freiburg win today.
Why has everything gone so wrong? I know they have had injuries, but so have we, so have other teams. It shouldn't mean you end up in the relegation zone.
The notion that a manager has to do what Alex Ferguson did before he can be considered "great" or of any good is so silly, only Man United fans have this opinion. I don't know how anyone could look at Klopp's career and not consider him to be one of the best managers now, despite what is happening now. He doesn't have to build team after team, how many managers get that lucury, not even Guardiola with his beloved Barca. In fact, most managers would have left BVB after the success he's enjoyed, but he's stayed there - he has to be given the time to bring the team out of the slump, which he will. I'm sure it's another learning curve, you learn everyday, is he a top manager? Without a doubt, yes.
Agreed. Sack him and they'd get nowhere in the CL and possibly end up relegated anyway. I believe he'll turn things around after this break. Getting away from it all for a while rather than having constant negativity might do them good when they come back.
Are the injuries on top of Lewandowski going making his job more difficult. He is going to have to turn this round quick.
I'm not denying that but it's starting to look like they may well be in a relegation battle. I think he can turn it around but given how long it has gone on for, how much longer can they continue?
Dortmund's players need to realise they're in relegation battle. Seems as though not everyone's understood that yet.
- Status