Jurgen Klopp and Dortmund

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amolbhatia100 said:
:lol:

Klopp, winner of back to back league titles and champions league finalist (at minimum) is a hipster choice but moyes, manager of a mid table premier league club isn't?
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Moyes has proven he can do wonders with a very limited budget plus he has invaluable PL experience. Klopp's achievements fade in comparison obviously, he's just a flavour of the month (or 5 years it has taken him to take Dortmund from 13th place to CL final).
 
Sarni said:
Moyes has proven he can do wonders with a very limited budget plus he has invaluable PL experience. Klopp's achievements fade in comparison obviously, he's just a flavour of the month (or 3 years).
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Klopp's achievements piss all over moyes'.
 
Someone tells me his net spend in his time at Dortmund is £7.5m. And they say Moyes is the example of a low budget.
 
Premier league experience is overrated. Mourinho didn't have it yet came and did brilliantly.
 
amolbhatia100 said:
Klopp's achievements piss all over moyes'.
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How dare you say that? Finishing 6th in the amazing Premier League, where the defending is the highest standard possible, this season pisses all over building a side that wins two titles in a row and reaches CL final.
 
amolbhatia100 said:
Premier league experience is overrated. Mourinho didn't have it yet came and did brilliantly.
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Before someone experiences the level of defending present in Premier League they cannot be called managers. Defending in Bundesliga is atrocious.

Defending.
 
Chabon said:
What were his achievements before being given the job at one of Germany's biggest clubs? Go on, look it up.
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Dortmund were a mid table team at that time in a dire financial situation and he has spend about the same amount per season than Moyes.

But of course it's harder to break into a phalanx of 4 top clubs as opposed to 1 top club and a lot of one hit wonders.
 
Chabon said:
What were his achievements before being given the job at one of Germany's biggest clubs? Go on, look it up.
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13th best team in Germany before he came. Virtually no money to spend a rather poor team to inherit. Fast forward three years and they're champions, fast forward five and they are in CL final.
 
Klopp will give us access to German players, a country that weirdly we have never had a player play for us before, a country that is looking like will be the next team to dominate international football.
 
starman said:
Klopp will give us access to German players, a country that weirdly we have never had a player play for us before, a country that is looking like will be the next team to dominate international football.
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To be fair I don't think we lack 'access' to German players. We just haven't bought any for whatever reason/s.
 
TBH, I think Klopps been fairly lucky myself, how many of his signings have flopped? It's not just down to good scouting, signing 6 players and them all turning out great is pretty lucky. Not to mention the fact that he has taken over while a sudden boom in German talent is present as well as a sudden boom in the German economy.
 
paceme said:
TBH, I think Klopps been fairly lucky myself, how many of his signings have flopped? It's not just down to good scouting, signing 6 players and them all turning out great is pretty lucky. Not to mention the fact that he has taken over while a sudden boom in German talent is present as well as a sudden boom in the German economy.
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What ridiculous logic. Someone does exceptionally well at something, so it must be luck. No other reason whatsoever, just that people aren't ever more than 'pretty good' at anything.

Maybe he genuinely has excellent scouts and a really good eye for true quality in a player.
 
paceme said:
TBH, I think Klopps been fairly lucky myself, how many of his signings have flopped? It's not just down to good scouting, signing 6 players and them all turning out great is pretty lucky. Not to mention the fact that he has taken over while a sudden boom in German talent is present as well as a sudden boom in the German economy.
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Perisic could be considered a flop and Schieber will probably fall into that category sooner or later so I don't think he was over the odds lucky in that regard.

But it's not just down to luck it also has to do with Klopp being great in terms of man management, he and his team do an excellent job at helping players to adopt to their system and improve every trainings session.

He knows exactly what kind of player he is looking for and is really good at moulding these players to his play style.

The only thing that could be in doubt is if he would be able to work as well with experienced and seasoned star players like Rooney, RvP, Vidic and Rio.
 
Brightonian said:
To be fair I don't think we lack 'access' to German players. We just haven't bought any for whatever reason/s.
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NoLogo said:
We neither seem to be much into Spanish players as well which is weird considering the amount of talent that came from this country over the last 10 years.
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Well our surge of Portuguese/Brazilian players was down to Queiroz, had he been Spanish, i am sure we would have had a number of Spanish players playing for us.
 
Brightonian said:
What ridiculous logic. Someone does exceptionally well at something, so it must be luck. No other reason whatsoever, just that people aren't ever more than 'pretty good' at anything.

Maybe he genuinely has excellent scouts and a really good eye for true quality in a player.
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It's not really daft logic. What manager has been at a club for 5 years (I think that's right?) and not made a dud signing based on a scout report or whatever. I'm not questioning his ability to spot a player either, it's clearly very good but it's still pretty odd. No need to get the panties in a twist. This thread feels like a bloody temple sometimes.
 
NoLogo said:
Perisic could be considered a flop and Schieber will probably fall into that category sooner or later so I don't think he was over the odds lucky in that regard.

But it's not just down to luck it also has to do with Klopp being great in terms of man management, he and his team do an excellent job at helping players to adopt to their system and improve every trainings session.

He knows exactly what kind of player he is looking for and is really good at moulding these players to his play style.

The only thing that could be in doubt is if he would be able to work as well with experienced and seasoned star players like Rooney, RvP, Vidic and Rio.
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Fair enough, I don't follow them extremely closely and only watch the occasional game so was just asking the question.
 
They made a €2mil profit on Perisic though and I think his problem is rather mentality than ability.
 
In his first season he was a valuable squad player. This season he didn't have the best start and then got impatient, publicly criticising Klopp, accusing him of unfair treatment. Klopp found some harsh words for him at the next presser then they quietly resolved the situation and sold him to Wolfsburg during Winter and thus far he really struggles to make an impact (only 1 assists, no goals, played the full 90minutes only twice - missed a month due to injury though).
 
paceme said:
It's not really daft logic. What manager has been at a club for 5 years (I think that's right?) and not made a dud signing based on a scout report or whatever. I'm not questioning his ability to spot a player either, it's clearly very good but it's still pretty odd. No need to get the panties in a twist. This thread feels like a bloody temple sometimes.
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Panties remain untwisted, never fear. It was just such bizarre reasoning, thinking someone's lucky just because they haven't failed. If you knew that, say, he never looked that carefully at lots of his signings, or that some of them had been terrible before and just happened to find form when they came to Dortmund, then there might be some reason to assume he's been successful because he's lucky.
 
Chabon said:
What were his achievements before being given the job at one of Germany's biggest clubs? Go on, look it up.
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His time at Mainz was pretty impressive. Hoeneß wanted him as manager for Bayern in 2008 before he took the Dortmund job but was overruled and the club hired Klinsmann. What a mistake.

His first 6 seasons at Mainz were outstanding, how he turned the club around after being in danger of going down to the 3rd league, then lead them into the Bundesliga for the first time in the club's history and thanks to the UEFA fair play thing even played in europe with the club, also a first time in the club's history. Everyone who followed Mainz in those years already knew that he's an outstanding manager and he was offered jobs by several bigger clubs for years before he didn't extend his contract in 2008.
 
paceme said:
TBH, I think Klopps been fairly lucky myself, how many of his signings have flopped? It's not just down to good scouting, signing 6 players and them all turning out great is pretty lucky. Not to mention the fact that he has taken over while a sudden boom in German talent is present as well as a sudden boom in the German economy.
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Sudden boom? Lol.

The current strength of the youth players in Germany goes back to drastic reformations of the youth development in the begging of millenium.

There is nothing "sudden" about this development, but the result of heavy investments into academies for both players and coaches.

You also have to tell me, where this "sudden" boom in the German economy is. The economy growth is outside the finance crisis in 2008 stable for decades now. It has also not much to do with football in Germany giving the very low ticket prices in comparision to the other top leagues.
 
paceme said:
I don't obviously mean boom in the literal sense. I mean he has been fortunate in his timing. It's not like Klopp is responsible for setting all the youth improvements up.
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No, but he is responsible for their development at Dortmund, which is for the most part fantastic. He is just a freaking good teacher and motivator.

And this also does not include only young players.

A perfect example for that is Piszczek. He came to Dortmund for free from the relegated Hertha BSC Berlin as a 25 years old mediocre winger and former striker. Many scratched their heads at this transfer, but Klopp saw qualities in him that other didn´t.

What did he do? He transformed him into a right back and completely used his potential. The same player now belongs to the five best players in the world on his position.

Klopp has the gift to make pretty much any player he works with better in one way or the other.
 
I'm talking about young players? I don't understand your point, I never said he was bad, he's very good, but he's obviously benefitted from Germany's better youth set up, does he have to take full credit for everything or something? Regardless of how good a teacher he is the talent still needs to be there.
 
Sphae, can you envision Klopp leaving? The way I have seen it is he is a modern day loyal manager who wouldn't leave his little slice of paradise there.

I always get an odd feeling thinking about him leaving. It just doesn't seem right to me.
 
paceme said:
I'm talking about young players? I don't understand your point, I never said he was bad, he's very good, but he's obviously benefitted from Germany's better youth set up, does he have to take full credit for everything or something? Regardless of how good a teacher he is the talent still needs to be there.
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Yes, a talent spotter needs talent to spot. But that doesn't make it lucky to spot it.

Sorry if this is coming off as argumentative. I know you're not actually criticising Klopp, and wouldn't really care if you were. I'm honestly just trying to understand what you're saying.
 
It's similar to Pep and Barca, while he did a fantastic job, there was lots of talent already there, the only difference is that Klopp had to mold it. The better standard of young German players have made it far easier to do that than it maybe would of been 10 years ago.
 
paceme said:
I'm talking about young players? I don't understand your point, I never said he was bad, he's very good, but he's obviously benefitted from Germany's better youth set up, does he have to take full credit for everything or something? Regardless of how good a teacher he is the talent still needs to be there.
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You talked about German talent, I gave you an example of a Polish in his middle 20´s.

And of course he benefitted from the talent pool in Germany just like pretty much any other German club. Klopp is just the best in using this talent.

The speed of the rise of Dortmund would normally be pretty much impossible without benefiting factors.
 
ghaliboy said:
Sphae, can you envision Klopp leaving? The way I have seen it is he is a modern day loyal manager who wouldn't leave his little slice of paradise there.

I always get an odd feeling thinking about him leaving. It just doesn't seem right to me.
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Not before 2016, no.

I´m too lazy to write it again so I just quote myself from the Moyes thread ;)

Sphaero said:
He stated time and time again that he will at least fulfill his until 2016 lasting contract.

And please don´t give me the "everybody in football is a lying bastard" line and look at his history as a coach.

In his time at Mainz he had at least half a dozen confirmed offers by stronger German sides and still stayed for seven years until his last contract ran out.

At Dortmund he had at least offers from both Bayern Munich and Chelsea and also possibly the German national team and refused all of them.
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paceme said:
Or even similar to us! Ferguson struck abit lucky with the likes of Beckham, Neville's, Giggs, Scholes all popping up at the same time. He did fantastically with that talent but there's certainly luck there.
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You call it luck. I call it excellent scouting and delevoping.
 
Fair enough, i'm dipping here and there at the moment. Not reading much - a lot of all this shit hasn't sunk in but I just wouldn't see him coming in general.
 
paceme said:
So why doesn't it happen over and over?
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Because football doesn't work like that? Come on mate, you're being really obtuse with your statements here. I'm not sure what the issue is here in this thread. People are complimenting Klopp's good work. Obviously you have to have the talent. THat's a given. No one is saying otherwise. It's also recognising the ability to nurture that talent and see qualities you can develop in a player that others struggle to see. It's not so different from what SAF has done over the years. Not saying Klopp is a modern-day Fergie but he's an excellent tactician, motivator and teacher.

English football has its problems with getting more talent out there. We dont have as much access to these lads. They spend less time with us AND we had to deal with the 90 minute rule for some years. There are times where a group of world-class talents come out of the ranks at the same time. We all know this to be a rare phenomenon but what Klopp is doing isn't really related to that. His scouting network is excellent. Signing a player like Kagawa is proof of that.

WE shouldn't have to copy the germans but there's something to be said for how they are nurturing talent these days. People like Klopp has seemingly been able to get that something extra out of some of these talents.
 
The job in Bundesliga and the Premiership are two completely different things. As someone has said, in the Premiership, the lower league teams realistically have to be bankrolled by a billionaire to win the league now. Possibly a multi-billionaire. If the likes of United, Chelsea, City, Arsenal and Spurs were in Bundesliga, I'm very confident that Dortmund wouldn't have even of had the chance at success.

I think Klopp is a top guy and potentially a top manager in the making, but he's not a sure thing just yet.
 
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